Is Goku a superhero?

[dbzfan7]

Superman has SEVERAL different writers. He's not the same with each and every version. Sometimes he's an asshole, sometimes he's the pinnacle of good. Goku is written by one person. What 1 Superman does, doesn't mean they all will. Same with Batman. Some kill, and some don't.

Fair enough, but the point still stands in the cases where he does let Darkseid live. Is he good for doing so?

The reason he lets Freeza go is out of mercy, so it's not the same against Piccolo.

I don't know what you mean. They were going to fight Piccolo but stop dead in their tracks when Piccolo tells them they don't have a chance. If they all teamed up, they might win easier, but Goku was going to win that match, he was stronger, faster, more agile, and overall better fighter. He just wasn't as devious. Nothing really would've been different if they weren't in a tournament setting. And I'm not saying letting Piccolo leave was the right thing, this isn't about that.

It's like how 17 said if everyone teamed up on 18, they could beat her, despite really only 2 people being on their level.

That was conjecture on 17's part.

in the resurrection of F, which has proven to have learned nothing from its past experiences.

Well, that's different, Freeza wasn't stronger than Goku and even having everyone team up was no guarentee that Freeza never would've gotten the chance to blow up the planet.

No it doesn't stand. I don't know what version that Superman is, nor do I know the context of the scene. The Avengers let Doom go free after rescuing their friends from him because he has diplomatic immunity. They literally can't touch Doom without potentially causing a problem. I don't know the context between Superman and Darkseid here. So that point doesn't stand at least til there's some context. I could out of context say The Avengers let Doom go, but that doesn't include all the context. I don't know when this was, nor the context.

That isn't a good reason at all. Piccolo is evil. He hasn't shown any good yet. He is literally free to kill anyone, and Goku can't watch him 24/7. They could seal him away with the Mafuba, Goku doesn't take that approach. He just let's Piccolo go do whatever he wants, just so he can fight him again. There isn't a good reason to let him go. Freeza has no signs of change either. After everything he does, he still tries to kill Goku after all of that, and Goku still let's him go. He wanted him to get better and fight again. He let a guy who has no signs of changing go. If he didn't learn Shunkan Ido, and if Trunks hadn't shown up, all of his friends would be dead because of him.

17 knows 18 very well. He felt if they all teamed up on her, she could lose. So he joined in. If everyone teamed up with Goku, Piccolo wouldn't have any chance at all. You keep going on "Oh well Goku is better so it's fine." THAT'S NOT THE POINT! As I said. It doesn't matter if the odds are in his favour or not. Even Goku says this to Gohan when he tells him to kill Cell right away. He knows Cell is screwed most likely, but he could do something else. Same with any other person Goku fought. There's no telling what can happen. You can ride a bike without your helmet, and most likely be completely fine. You can have no seat belt in a car, and most likely be fine. You can cut through an alley way or park late at night and most likely be fine. That does not mean there isn't a chance you could hurt yourself badly. You go with the best possible and safest option. Not the most fun option.

Even in F Goku doesn't learn a damn thing. He could have just killed Freeza right away, which he laments on, but instead just filled his own selfish desire again. It's not til his mistake blows up in his face does he finally just do it. Even then he still doesn't learn his lesson as he and Vegeta could have put a stop to Freeza easily, but no they had to do it the otherway because it's more fun.

[Lord Beerus]

I've always seen Goku as more of a classical hero, much like Hercules.

[Cetra]

Won't that be like saying characters like Godzilla and Sonic are superheroes since they have save the world many times and still come when the world needs them. And yet they don't fit the Superhero definition.

The problem is here that you still think it is so easy to define certain things but we are not talking about something absolute. And even if we do not take that into consideration, well - I do not know much about Gojira other than her (?) being a giant lizard but the only reason why I would not call Gojira a super hero would be that I do not associate it with an individual person. If it actually is, then I have no problem with calling it such. Weird as it is monstrous but still. And Sonic? Even less of a problem. So, yes, I get your point, but me not calling them such would only be because of what they look like and maybe some other missing traits. Surely not "oh, they do not have those morals xyz (even though morals themselves are no absolute and actually very complex topic), they are not irrelevant though)" Really, what is a super hero? Yes, those might not be classic. But it is the same as the old question of people when it comes to video games: "Boo, this character is so much stronger, he became a God!!!!!!" What is a God? Not automatically a monotheistic, omni-potent-scient-present being. That is also very flexible.

Those are anti-heroes, not superheroes. Someone like The Punisher and Spawn don't fit the idea of being a superhero.

Not only does being an anti-hero not automatically exclude the possibility of being a superhero as it is not the exact opposite, it is also not like you think (in my opinion). What you say means that there are almost no superheroes at all because once someone has more layers and is more complex, brings in trouble, also trouble when it comes to their own person they can no longer be a superhero. And that is definitely not true. A superhero does not need to be Saint Superior Heros.

[Soppa Saia People]

First off let me say, this is a great and interesting topic. Second

Spoiler:

I'm going to go against the grain here, methinks. I'm not a fan of the "hope of the universe" Goku. Even the movie Toei Goku can get a bit outside of the character at times. But I honestly feel the accidental hero, selfish manchild aspect is far too overstated as well. Maybe it's fans pulling against FUNimation's depictions. Maybe it's Toriyama pulling against Toei's depictions. But Goku is (or was at least) very selflessly heroic. I think he, unfortunately, became less so over time as he began inheriting "Saiyan" characteristics that were then claimed to have always been there. But remember this is a guy who abandons his epic quest without hesitation to carry a sea turtle back to his home, with no thought of reward or expectation of fighting, just because it's the right thing to do. He finishes gathering all the Dragon Balls, even the ones he doesn't care about, just to bring an innocent man back to life. Yes, he is driven by battle. Yes, he is simple and is often motivated by his own desires. Yes, he can often make reckless decisions. No, he does not live by an overt code or sit in the Hall of Justice waiting to battle the Legion of Doom. And I love all of those things about him. But that's not all Goku is at all, and it pains me that he continues to be pushed further in that direction as the years go on.

This basically is everything I could say about this. Yeah Gokuu can be selfish at times, but he's not jerk who only cares for himself.

[JulieYBM]

Gokuu doesn't really fit a 'superhero' description. Gokuu is Gokuu, he'll say "hey, maybe it's not so nice to do that sort of thing," but that's no different from being a normal person.

[ABED]

You are overthinking the Darkseid example. Darkseid's agenda is the same as it always is - domination of the universe. Letting him live is too dangerous, no matter what version of Superman I'm referring to.

That isn't a good reason at all.

I didn't claim it was a good reason, just that it was different. He let Piccolo go because he wanted to fight, he let Freeza go out of mercy.

she could lose. So he joined in. If everyone teamed up with Goku, Piccolo wouldn't have any chance at all. You keep going on "Oh well Goku is better so it's fine."

Could being the operative word. He didn't know, nor did Goku's friends. They weren't certain they could defeat Piccolo even by teaming up, that's why they didn't intervene. It is fine. If your big gun tells you it's fine, then there's little point in pressing the issue.

You go with the best possible and safest option

Not always, and it's not neccesarily true that everyone ganging up on Piccolo was the best option. Piccolo could've killed even one of them had they all tried to attack. Everyone not named Goku were nothing to him. Safety is only one consideration.

It's not til his mistake blows up in his face does he finally just do it

THere's nothing about the scenario that suggest Goku could've just simply killed him right off the bat and that Freeza could've been prevented from destroying the planet as easily as you claim. I don't think any of them had any idea he was going to do that. Fighting full power from the start guaranteed nothing.

[dbzfan7]

You are overthinking the Darkseid example. Darkseid's agenda is the same as it always is - domination of the universe. Letting him live is too dangerous, no matter what version of Superman I'm referring to.

No I am not overthinking it. You need context. I have no idea who wrote this story, nor the context of situation. There could be a very good reason as to why he was let go. I don't know. I know the full context of Goku's scenes, so I can judge them. I do not know the full context of what you're bringing up. If you don't either, then your point is completely moot because you don't even know the full extent of your example. I need a comic issue, when it happened, who wrote it, etc. I can only think of two instances where he let Darkseid go in the animated series. Once where he couldn't beat him because he is essentially god to his people. The other was when Batman had to take him away before he got himself killed.

I didn't claim it was a good reason, just that it was different. He let Piccolo go because he wanted to fight, he let Freeza go out of mercy.

Both of which a Super Hero wouldn't do. Him letting Piccolo survive makes sense, because if he dies, God dies. But they still could seal him away. Instead he let him go so he could fight him again later. He let a mass murder go, for selfish desires. The same reason applies to Freeza. He let him go to fight him again. That wasn't mercy on virtue of being a good person.

Could being the operative word. He didn't know, nor did Goku's friends. They weren't certain they could defeat Piccolo even by teaming up, that's why they didn't intervene. It is fine. If your big gun tells you it's fine, then there's little point in pressing the issue.

The point is if all of them can be threat, despite only 2 or 3 being closer to 18, then all of Goku's friends plus Goku would for sure beat Piccolo. If Goku alone can do it, then everyone together have a much greater chance.The whole question was "If Goku loses, then we'll gang up on him". That was what Krillin proposed, which was shot down. The problem is once Goku loses, he's dead. Piccolo was going for the kill. So yes they wouldn't win without Goku. But with Goku they'd guarantee Piccolo's downfall. Which almost didn't happen if Goku didn't get really lucky.

Not always, and it's not neccesarily true that everyone ganging up on Piccolo was the best option. Piccolo could've killed even one of them had they all tried to attack. Everyone not named Goku were nothing to him. Safety is only one consideration.

He wouldn't be able to kill them with everyone ganging up on him. Especially when one person is slightly stronger than him. He'd be unable to keep his focus on Goku, if he is attacked from several positions. Even Piccolo admitted someone like Krillin would be a problem. So now multiply that by a bunch of people including Goku ganging up on him. That'd be disastrous.

There's nothing about the scenario that suggest Goku could've just simply killed him right off the bat and that Freeza could've been prevented from destroying the planet as easily as you claim. I don't think any of them had any idea he was going to do that. Fighting full power from the start guaranteed nothing.

Uh yes they could. Transform, and kill Freeza before he transforms. Very simple. Or better yet, Goku and Vegeta team up and beat him down very very quickly. Both ways would put down Freeza no problem, with the latter even being stated would make things so much easier. Them not preventing Freeza from destroying the planet is them being imbeciles, because he already pulled that stunt on Namek. Goku should be very fully aware it's a tactic Freeza will pull. If not he's a damn fool who's learned absolutely nothing.

I've always seen Goku as more of a classical hero, much like Hercules.

Exactly. He fits more alongside the Grecian's who are heroes, despite not being questionable people. To even classify Goku in the same vein as Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and all the Super Hero greats, is outright laughable. Those guys would look at Goku, and think he's some kind of moron.

[Polyphase Avatron]

For some reason, people have this odd idea that 'superheroes' have to be perfectly morally good, with no flaws whatsoever. Of course that's ridiculous. The Punisher is a superhero, and he routinely murders people, for instance.

So I don't see why Goku isn't one.

[ABED]

He wouldn't be able to kill them with everyone ganging up on him

But he could've easily gotten at least one. What's the better option? Risking a high chance of at least one death or letting Goku, the guy who has proven time and time again to be second to none and defeated the previous incarnation of said villain, fight alone? Both have risks.

No I am not overthinking it. You need context. I have no idea who wrote this story, nor the context of situation. There could be a very good reason as to why he was let go. I don't know.

There is no context needed. Unless it would result in something worse, there's no justification for letting Darkseid go. And the Dr. Doom example is poor as well. Superheroes break rules all the time. What's worse? Stepping on some toes by violating the flimsy excuse of diplomatic immunity or stopping Doom's evil plans? I don't need the full extent of my examples because they don't need any other context than Darkseid was going to try and make the entire universe his slaves and kill anyone in his path. What scenarios can you think of where not killing him is the better option? You don't need to know who wrote it, that's an insignificant detail. Let's take the animated series. Letting Darkseid go the first time was a bad idea. There's no justification other than "don't stoop to his level". How would killing someone that dangerous when he's clearly vulnerable be a bad idea? It's the same thing as letting Vegeta go. He's clearly going to come back to try and get revenge.

Both of which a Super Hero wouldn't do.

Superheroes do it all the time.

The same reason applies to Freeza. He let him go to fight him again. That wasn't mercy on virtue of being a good person.

No, he let him go to be merciful. He was walking away and only helped because Freeza begged.

But with Goku they'd guarantee Piccolo's downfall. Which almost didn't happen if Goku didn't get really lucky.

It wasn't luck, it was skill and Goku was going to win regardless, by keeping it one on one, it lowers the risk of any of his friends dying. Piccolo could've used them as a shield or done any number of things. That's one of the reasons Goku wanted to fight Vegeta one on one. And Piccolo could've killed a couple of Goku's friends even in his weakened state. They tried to attack him and were stopped in their tracks. The only one that stood a chance was Goku.

and Vegeta team up and beat him down very very quickly

You still run into the issue of Freeza doing something desperate. The reason they were able to stop him the second time is because they knew the attack was coming, not because they were stronger.

[dbzfan7]

There is no context needed. Unless it would result in something worse, there's no justification for letting Darkseid go. And the Dr. Doom example is poor as well. Superheroes break rules all the time. What's worse? Stepping on some toes by violating the flimsy excuse of diplomatic immunity or stopping Doom's evil plans? I don't need the full extent of my examples because they don't need any other context than Darkseid was going to try and make the entire universe his slaves and kill anyone in his path. What scenarios can you think of where not killing him is the better option? You don't need to know who wrote it, that's an insignificant detail. Let's take the animated series. Letting Darkseid go the first time was a bad idea. There's no justification other than "don't stoop to his level". How would killing someone that dangerous when he's clearly vulnerable be a bad idea? It's the same thing as letting Vegeta go. He's clearly going to come back to try and get revenge.

You need context. Doom rules a country with an iron fist. Doing anything drastic would be an act of war, and you'd have Latveria pissed off at America. He rules a country and has diplomatic immunity. You can't straight up kill or take out the leader of a country, and not expect a problem with the people. Darkseid is the same as he's god of Apokolips. I'm not going to go into politics of why that is right or wrong, but let me put it this way of why context is important.

Take these, and ignore ALL the context. All of it. Take the statement at complete face value. Don't try to explain it, take it at face value like you are with your example.

-Goku wanted to fight one on one with Piccolo instead of having a bunch of people take him down along side him
-Goku gave Piccolo a senzu after he shows he's completely evil and wants to rule the world.
-Goku let Vegeta go after he killed almost all his friends and nearly destroyed earth.
-Goku let Freeza go after he killed his best friend and doomed the namekian planet.
-Goku let Cyborgs be created so he could fight them, despite the future dictating everyone dies fighting them.
-Goku let Boo go so 8 year old children can beat him up.

See how if you don't have any context, Goku sounds much worse? Remove the reasons he did what he did, and Goku sounds horrible. That's why we need context. What might look bad, isn't as bad as we may think.

Superheroes do it all the time

Depends on the one's. Usually it's part of a no killing rule, which Goku does not share. Neither are they for selfish reasons like Goku's are.

No, he let him go to be merciful. He was walking away and only helped because Freeza begged.

He told him to go build up his power and come fight him again later. A move that not only backfired, but nearly got everyone he cared about killed. Not for some desire for Freeza to learn his lesson, or for justice, but because he wanted a rematch. It's also why he let Vegeta go. Both being wrong.

It wasn't luck, it was skill and Goku was going to win regardless, by keeping it one on one, it lowers the risk of any of his friends dying. Piccolo could've used them as a shield or done any number of things. That's one of the reasons Goku wanted to fight Vegeta one on one. And Piccolo could've killed a couple of Goku's friends even in his weakened state. They tried to attack him and were stopped in their tracks. The only one that stood a chance was Goku.

It was not skill. Skill does not cause Piccolo to miss. That was completely luck based. Goku wasn't paying attention to Piccolo and nearly died. How is there any skill in not paying attention, and nearly being shot in the heart? Goku was confident at first he could take Vegeta alone so he did, then regretted it immediately later. God was in the right to suggest they all team up. You really think anyone is going to die when Goku is right there? Heck with a power level of 5000 Vegeta thought if everyone teamed up, they might be a problem. That's before Goku got even stronger. Piccolo thought taking over the world would be tough if there were more people like Krillin around. So they aren't complete fodder.

You still run into the issue of Freeza doing something desperate. The reason they were able to stop him the second time is because they knew the attack was coming, not because they were stronger.

[/quote]

He wouldn't have time to do anything desperate if the pressure is kept on him. They should know he would pull such a stunt because he's done it before. He can't pull off such an attack when either one or together can eliminate him before he has time to. Goku even knows this as he said if he finished him off sooner, everything would have been fine.

[Captain Strawberry]

No but he it wouldn't be false to say he is. Both answers are probably correct. I say this because he is a hero in his own unique way or rather simply in a unique way.

[z_cherub]

Can he be heroic at times q? Certainly. Is that what he is at the very core of his character? Is that what he seeks to be & is that what primarily defines him? IS he a hero? No.

He's a fighter & a competitive madman who is heroic when his quest for a challenging fight leads him directly into an opportunity to be heroic, & even then, he typically only acts heroic when his primary objective isn't interfered with by said heroism.

I like running. A kid is directly in my path and I grab him to keep him from walking into traffic then keep jogging. I never actively look for kids to save, and if the kid is too far out of my running path, I do nothing. I even occasionally push kids closer to traffic if they're in the way and I'm in danger of not making my best time. Am I a hero?

[Gaffer Tape]

and if the kid is too far out of my running path, I do nothing.

Again, Sea Turtle. Very far out of Goku's "running path." Goku still helps him.

[dbzfan7]

I like to wonder, perhaps Goku is this way because he has the Dragon Balls. He has a big safety net so he can get away with what he does. I wonder, would he act the same way, even if there were no more Dragon Balls.

[z_cherub]

and if the kid is too far out of my running path, I do nothing.

Again, Sea Turtle. Very far out of Goku's "running path." Goku still helps him.

One exception does not a rule make.

This is the same guy that let Vegeta live and gave Cell a senzu for the sake of a "good fight" happening at some point. I'd also be interested to see how much of his "heroing" is anime filler... Not saying it all is, would just be interesting.

[dbzfan7]

I made a thread that also could go into Goku's behaviour too. When I think of how broken the Dragon Balls are, does it really matter what Goku does? Death is all but meaningless, so it's not like he can't just fix everything easily. Early on is still questionable, but later, his attitude kinda makes sense.

[Gaffer Tape]

and if the kid is too far out of my running path, I do nothing.

Again, Sea Turtle. Very far out of Goku's "running path." Goku still helps him.

One exception does not a rule make.

This is the same guy that let Vegeta live and gave Cell a senzu for the sake of a "good fight" happening at some point. I'd also be interested to see how much of his "heroing" is anime filler... Not saying it all is, would just be interesting.

It isn't one exception. I made a whole big post about it in this thread earlier with other examples. But even if it was, it's a very early and character-defining scene. It takes the two leads, Goku and Blooma, and demonstrates exactly how they are different: Blooma is focused on her quest, what she wants, and she won't let anything get in the way. Goku will go out of his way to help someone even if there's nothing in it for him.

And Goku didn't give Cell a senzu for the sake of a good fight happening. He did it to be "fair," not that that really makes any sense, seeing as how the whole point of the Cell Game was the possibility of enough fights wearing Cell down by attrition. That's just an example of cockiness and "shocking" writing. Goku's not getting anything out of a good fight he's no longer involved with.

My point in general is that, to be honest, Goku's ultimately a pretty inconsistent character. There is a point in the series where he is suddenly defined by his Saiyan heritage, which was not at all the case prior to that. And that's used as an excuse to justify really stupid decisions in the later story arcs. FUNimation and Toei did exaggerate him to one extreme, but Toriyama exaggerated him to the other extreme. And I feel the truth is (or technically was) somewhere in the middle: he's a naive bumpkin with base desires, not always above making selfish choices, but who also possesses an innate goodness that makes him want to help others. And I have to say I find that Goku to be much more interesting and fun than either of those extremes.

[Gorou]

Goku gave a Seen a Cell only for sportsmanship, episode similar to that of 23°TB, when allows Piccolo to hit him. Obviously, the young Goku, was a very different character who, despite is love for fight and his strong desire to face increasingly strong opponents, used to kill the cruel and vicious enemies almost without showing pity or resentment. As a child, it was more comparable to the iconic figure of hero.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Again, if anyone wants I can name many acknowledged 'superheroes' who are less moral/heroic than Goku is.

[Kamiccolo9]

Again, if anyone wants I can name many acknowledged 'superheroes' who are less moral/heroic than Goku is.

You mentioned the Punisher but, to be fair, no one in the MU considers him to be a superhero. They all think he's a murdering lunatic.

Not debating the overall point, but the Punisher's not the best example.