Why do people like loooooooooooong fights?

[Kamiccolo9]

Big spoilers for multiple series throughout this post.

To give some context, I watched Gurren Lagann last year. About halfway through the show

Spoiler:

the big fight with Lordgenome that has been building up for the entire show happens, and it only lasts, like, one episode!

In Attack on Titan, at the end of the second "part" or "season" or whatever

Spoiler:

, Erin has his rematch with the Female Titan. After ending the previous episode with the first punch, the actual climactic fight only lasts about 15 minutes!

I just finished binging FMA Brotherhood yesterday, and

Spoiler:

while the events of the day of the final fight take up a good chunk of the total show, the actual fight with Father only takes about two episodes (as well as allowing for glorious usage of minor characters and even Redshirts in the last fight!)

I stopped watching Pokemon about halfway through the second or third Johto season, so the last "final boss" I remember from that show was Drake of the Orange Islands. That battle lasted two episodes.

Digimon Adventure and 02 both had final battles that lasted 2 episodes. Tamers was a bit different, but the D-Reaper was a totally different kind of enemy, and was handled very differently than the general "fight bad guy" formula.

I honestly don't remember how long the final fight with Naraku was, but considering Inuyasha: The Final Act's insanely fast pacing, I'm sure it wasn't over an episode or two.

Finally, the big climactic fight with Shishio in Rurouni Kenshin, which I would consider its equivalent to the first Vegeta fight, last either 3 or 4 episodes. I forget.


Now, getting to the point, you could take all of these fights, add them together, and double the length, and they would still be shorter than the fight against Freeza.
Even discounting "5 minutes," fights in Dragon Ball, in my opinion, simply take too long. Watching a nicely animated chunk of Goku fighting Freeza is great. Watching some character-developing banter between Goku and Vegeta is awesome. Watching it go on and on and on and suffering due to obvious padding is not.


"Dragon Ball is known for its fights." I see this posted on here all the time. Yet, oftimes when you ask someone what was memorable about the fights, the reply is "they just stood around looking all constipated and yelling at each other for 10 episodes." I have friends who, when rewatching the series, tend to skip forward through the highlights of the Freeza fight, since most of it is pointless filler (this includes the fight in the manga. Half of that fight has no reason to be there other than senselessly padding out the story.) As much as I like the humor and zaniness of the Buu Arc, the majority of the fights consist of "stomp in one party's favor until plot happens and then stomp in the other guy's favor" with Goku vs Majin Vegeta and Gotenks vs Buu being the only real exceptions. And the less said about the fight against Perfect Cell, the better.

One of the big criticisms I hear about Super (and the only one I want to focus on in this thread) is that the fights in the tournament have been too short. Why is this a problem? From what I can tell, they're only "too short" in comparison to Dragon Ball, which already massively bloated its fights. At least from what I've been led to understand, Super's fights really aren't that much shorter than plenty of other anime I've seen.

I keep bringing up the Freeza fight because it is the most egregious offender, but it's hardly the only one. Kai did a decent job of managing this, but it could only edit Toriyama's self-padding to a limited extent.

So, this leads to the question in the title. Why do people like these long, overly-padded fights?

[JulieYBM]

The longest fight in the animated Pokemon franchise is Satoshi versus Shinji, which lasts from the beginning of Diamond & Pearl Episode #186-187. It's a Full Battle, just like Satoshi's battle with Yuuji during the climax of the Orange Islands arc, but lasts much longer. The battles in Hajime no Ippo are even longer with the climatic rematch between Ippo and Sendou lasting from the tail end of Episode #71 through the first half of Episode #75.

A 'long battle' is something unique to Japanese animation and comics. I think that uniqueness is what plays a part in its likability amongst westerners, who are used to short and typically boring fights in our cartoons and television series. A long battle allows for storytelling, plot and character development through the battle, rather than around it. I'm nearing the end of my re-read of Eyeshield 21 where some of the football games last upwards of thirty chapters each. Thirty twenty-page chapters of power, tricks, speed, and battles of will. It's extremely exciting because of its length and depth. Panels are excitingly drawn and the scripting is never overbearing. The strength of Japanese comics and animation lie in their 'rhythm'. There's less reliance on shoving paragraphs of dialogue into a single panel and the visuals are used to convey half the information necessary to set up character or plot. You can consume a single, exciting and satisfying chapter in half the time you would need to with a typical American superhero comic.

The only real downside to long battles in animation is when they are a part of a bad production. A shorter [and better planned] project means you can really throw your full weight into a fight, that's why the fights in Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Fullmetal Alchemist or the important episodes of Naruto work. A Wakabayashi, Tsuru or Yamashita fight in Naruto has great storyboarding and animators to make used of a higher number of drawings. This allows them to pack in more movement in a shorter amount of time. One truly can do a lot with proper directing and animation. Look no further than Bleach: Jigoku-hen or Naruto Shippuuden: Hi no Ishii o Tsugu Mono for 'short' three minutes worth of fighting that feels much longer thanks to the density of the animation in each clip.

[Ajay]

One of the big criticisms I hear about Super (and the only one I want to focus on in this thread) is that the fights in the tournament have been too short. Why is this a problem? From what I can tell, they're only "too short" in comparison to Dragon Ball, which already massively bloated its fights. At least from what I've been led to understand, Super's fights really aren't that much shorter than plenty of other anime I've seen.

For me, it's because Super's production is so messy that trying to squeeze one fight into a single episode results in a mostly terribly animated and bland battle. Even with the best schedule, you cannot sustain an impressive fight for a solid 24 minutes. When you spread it out over multiple episodes, you can use cutaways and inconsequential subplots to allow for the actual battle scenes to look good. It means that one episode looking bad doesn't mean that the entire fight looks bad -- as was the case with Goku vs Botamo, for example. I don't want longer fights from a storytelling point of view, I want them because they generally improve the overall quality of the battle.

[Kamiccolo9]

One of the big criticisms I hear about Super (and the only one I want to focus on in this thread) is that the fights in the tournament have been too short. Why is this a problem? From what I can tell, they're only "too short" in comparison to Dragon Ball, which already massively bloated its fights. At least from what I've been led to understand, Super's fights really aren't that much shorter than plenty of other anime I've seen.

For me, it's because Super's production is so messy that trying to squeeze one fight into a single episode results in a mostly terribly animated and bland battle. Even with the best schedule, you cannot sustain an impressive fight for a solid 24 minutes. When you spread it out over multiple episodes, you can use cutaways and inconsequential subplots to allow for the actual battle scenes to look good. It means that one episode looking bad doesn't mean that the entire fight looks bad -- as was the case with Goku vs Botamo, for example. I don't want longer fights from a storytelling point of view, I want them because they generally improve the overall quality of the battle.

That's not an inherent weakness of shorter fights so much as it is a problem with Super's production, though. What I was asking was what's the problem with shorter fights. Just because Super cannot sustain an impressive fight for an entire episode doesn't mean that others can't or haven't. Like I mentioned in the first post, the actual "fight" portion of the final parts of FMA Brotherhood and the final fight of AoT only last about an episode, but they don't have this problem that you brought up.

[Ajay]

That's not an inherent weakness of shorter fights so much as it is a problem with Super's production, though. What I was asking was what's the problem with shorter fights. Just because Super cannot sustain an impressive fight for an entire episode doesn't mean that others can't or haven't. Like I mentioned in the first post, the actual "fight" portion of the final parts of FMA Brotherhood and the final fight of AoT only last about an episode, but they don't have this problem that you brought up.

No, I understand what you're saying, but my point stands. Longrunning anime work far differently from shows with a set number of episodes like the examples you've given. It can sustain short fights for entire episodes because it's not being made on the basis that an episode will be airing every week for an uncertain amount of time. When you know your show is running for 26 episodes, all the decisions are made well in advance and everything can be planned accordingly. They're two totally different types of production. You can't really compare them.

Super (and many longrunning shows) cannot do a single episode of pure action. When it tried, you got episode 5 and 24, and I'm sure nobody wants that again. With this type of long-form production, you have to spread the fights out to actually produce something of any worth. Animators cannot feasibly do 24 minutes of intense action in the time given for a weekly animated series. Instead, they do bursts of greatness across multiple episodes. It's not ideal, but it's better than Super's method of cramming everything into one terrible to mediocre mush.

As for why some viewers enjoy drawn out battles, I can only imagine the length adds gravitas for them. It's the way the fight meanders up and down, hitting impressive beats along the way, before finally hitting its climax. I can't say I agree with that point of view in all cases, but it's not a totally invalid view to have.

[Kuririn Fan]

Ajay, sir, i salute you!

[Kamiccolo9]

Fair enough, and that might make a worthy thread in and of itself. I'd like to focus more on the "why" in that last paragraph. I'll be back later with a longer post once I get off work.

And please, no "I agree" posts. If you want to contribute, then contribute. If not, then don't bother. This is a forum, not Facebook.

[Vijay]

Length doesnt translate into epicness-a lesson I learnt after watching "final" fights of Inuyasha: The Final Act & FullMetal Alchemist: BrotherHood

It depends on the strength of the show. Inuyasha & FMA's strongest suit was their rich & complex plotting. Naraku & Father's schemes took centuries to unfold & by the time it reaches climax, the big baddies got nothing much threat to pose. Hence, their short finale.

As a matter of fact, I've come across fans of respective shows voicing their displeasure/dissatisfaction over the swift final fight/finale.

Naraku was helpless as Inuyasha's Meido Zangetsuha & Sesshoumaru's Bakusaiga, along with Kagome's Sacred Arrow inflicting significant damage to his "body" INSPITE of having Shikon no Tama & Magatsuhi & Byakuya. Hell, they were freaking INSIDE his body which should've given Naraku homefield advantage beyond 100%

Likewise, FMA fans have ridiculed how Father's God-consuming greatness crumbled from mere punching contest of pathetic State Alchemist. To say nothing about how all Father did was conjuring a barrier to block ENTIRE attack of Amestris & Briggs forces when he could've done much more than that.

Now, DBZ's strongest suit has always been action. Toriyama loves telling story via battles. Ex: Tenkaichi Budoukai, Uranai Baba Tournament, Cell Games Tournament, Anoyoichi Budoukai, fights inside Babidi's Spaceship, the whole Kid Boo scenario etc

Each show have their distinct identity & DB's have been its lengthy action scenes.

Super however resorts to cheap methods utilized (sometimes not even utilized) by some of its significantly inferior successors

[Kuririn Fan]

Fair enough, and that might make a worthy thread in and of itself. I'd like to focus more on the "why" in that last paragraph. I'll be back later with a longer post once I get off work.

And please, no "I agree" posts. If you want to contribute, then contribute. If not, then don't bother. This is a forum, not Facebook.

I know, that's why i said " i salute you sir!" , because " i agree" is too mainstream. But fair enough, point taken. Sorry if you were expecting an essay, but Ajay said it nicely.

[Cipher]

I think the ideal Dragon Ball fight-length for me in terms of episodes--for a climactic one anyway--is like three to seven.

Part of the reason Dragon Ball earns its narratively untenable fight lengths is that it's a martial-arts story start to finish. It's all about the fighting (and whimsy), so when the big moments roll around, they tend to distinguish themselves by being more drag-out and over-the-top.

But a lot more of it has to do with the way they're usually handled, which is to punctuate the long fights with lots of little occurrences, changes, attempts at different techniques as trump cards, etc. They're not just trading blows on an even level for four episodes, and the few that are (Goku vs. Majin Vegeta, Piccolo vs. #17) bore me.

I won't speak fondly of its poorly handled anime adaptation, but look at Goku vs. Freeza in the manga, where it's still interminably long but manages to change things up just often enough to stay totally engaging. First--surprise! Goku's actually able to go toe-to-toe with Freeza. Then, oh no! Freeza's toying with him so heavily he doesn't even have to use his hands. Then--can Goku use the Kaioken? Oh no! He's already using 20x Kaioken. Then he hits Freeza with a Kamehameha and manages to do damage. In the next phase of the fight, he's trying to gather energy for a Genki Dama, the other characters popping in to help where they can (on a side note, I love this whole portion of the fight). Then it looks like that's succeeded, though it still fails, and finally we move into the Super Saiyan portion (which is still punctuated by events like the reappearance of Porunga on Namek, the final portion in which Goku's agreed to stay to beat Freeza, the character work occurring with Super Saiyan Goku, the final attempt to let Freeza go, etc.)

New, dynamic-changing things are happening almost every chapter. I don't think most artists/writers could pull off a fight lasting dozens of chapters. Toriyama does.

So basically:

Yet, oftimes when you ask someone what was memorable about the fights, the reply is "they just stood around looking all constipated and yelling at each other for 10 episodes."

No, I don't believe this to be the case. The anime is padded, but nearly all the long fights are filled with twists, turns, and character moments. Maybe people who don't think about the series as often as we do can't recall them from memory, but I guarantee that's why they kept watching.

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't think there's anything wrong with looooooooooong as long as that length is necessary to support it. That said, if one does feel the need to elongate it with lots of extra vowels, that seems to imply that that specific example does lack the substance needed to justify its length. But I don't think the length is a problem or a virtue in and of itself. Star Trek: The Motion Picture is boring, but not because it's long (or long for a Trek movie). It simply doesn't have enough story to fill its running time, so it instead fills itself with drawn out landscape shots and shots of people looking at said landscape shots. Conversely, the final series of fights in the Saiyan arc are pretty long when put together, even by Dragon Ball standards. Only the Freeza fight is longer, but only by a few chapters, which really surprised me. I think most would argue it feels quite a bit shorter. But I think that's just because it uses its length more effectively than the Freeza fight. There are more twists and turns, fewer cheap stretches for drama. And, yes, I am talking about the manga.

So, to sum up in as juvenile a way as possible: it's not the length, it's how you use it.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't think there's anything wrong with looooooooooong as long as that length is necessary to support it. That said, if one does feel the need to elongate it with lots of extra vowels, that seems to imply that that specific example does lack the substance needed to justify its length. But I don't think the length is a problem or a virtue in and of itself. Star Trek: The Motion Picture is boring, but not because it's long (or long for a Trek movie). It simply doesn't have enough story to fill its running time, so it instead fills itself with drawn out landscape shots and shots of people looking at said landscape shots. Conversely, the final series of fights in the Saiyan arc are pretty long when put together, even by Dragon Ball standards. Only the Freeza fight is longer, but only by a few chapters, which really surprised me. I think most would argue it feels quite a bit shorter. But I think that's just because it uses its length more effectively than the Freeza fight. There are more twists and turns, fewer cheap stretches for drama. And, yes, I am talking about the manga.

So, to sum up in as juvenile a way as possible: it's not the length, it's how you use it.

While I'll leave a more in-depth reply for when. I can get to my laptop, I will say that one of your posts about the Freeza fight inspired this thread. Personally, I think it is the least well done major fight in the story.

[ABED]

Only the Freeza fight is longer, but only by a few chapters, which really surprised me. I think most would argue it feels quite a bit shorter. But I think that's just because it uses its length more effectively than the Freeza fight. There are more twists and turns, fewer cheap stretches for drama. And, yes, I am talking about the manga.

Agreed, though it feels that way in large part because it's several different fights against several antagonists. The Freeza fight has more episodes, there's only one enemy, and the bulk of it is a one on one fight. Kai does a great job of cutting it down to a more managable length.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, I suppose I should specify just to be safe. When I say the final series of fights, I'm talking about the fight starting when Nappa and Vegeta land on earth, which follows continuously until Vegeta leaves. Yeah, there are a couple of breaks, but the manga is essentially nothing but fighting between those two points. Similarly the fight with Freeza is from the point that Freeza confront the heroes after they use the Dragon Balls until his defeat. Even that has at least one moment of downtime. I only say that since your phrasing of "several different antagonists" makes me wonder if you're assuming I'm including Raditz. But I guess you could be referring to the Saibaimen, now that I think about it.

[Looneygamemaster]

Those shorter action cartoons have a set length, so they're able to build up momentum, let it loose, relax a bit, and then do it over again as much as needed (well, maybe not FMAB). The mantra of Dragon Ball and its ilk is "stay on the air at any cost." Which means they can very rarely form a consistent rhythm. Compare it (or, for more recent examples, One Piece and Naruto) to something like Kill la Kill; it's like a car-ride with an intermittent stalling problem vs a roller-coaster ride.

I don't mind long fights--when done well, they can be akin to a chess match, where it's as exciting to anticipate what they're going to do next as it is to see it happen. But you very rarely see that in happen in shows like Dragon Ball.

[Kamiccolo9]

Those shorter action cartoons have a set length, so they're able to build up momentum, let it loose, relax a bit, and then do it over again as much as needed (well, maybe not FMAB). The mantra of Dragon Ball and its ilk is "stay on the air at any cost." Which means they can very rarely form a consistent rhythm. Compare it (or, for more recent examples, One Piece and Naruto) to something like Kill la Kill; it's like a car-ride with an intermittent stalling problem vs a roller-coaster ride.

I don't mind long fights--when done well, they can be akin to a chess match, where it's as exciting to anticipate what they're going to do next as it is to see it happen. But you very rarely see that in happen in shows like Dragon Ball.

To be fair, one of the shows I mentioned was Inu-yasha, whose length is comparable to any of the separate DBZ shows. Not to mention Pokemon, which dwarfs DB in length.

[ABED]

Well, I suppose I should specify just to be safe. When I say the final series of fights, I'm talking about the fight starting when Nappa and Vegeta land on earth, which follows continuously until Vegeta leaves. Yeah, there are a couple of breaks, but the manga is essentially nothing but fighting between those two points. Similarly the fight with Freeza is from the point that Freeza confront the heroes after they use the Dragon Balls until his defeat. Even that has at least one moment of downtime. I only say that since your phrasing of "several different antagonists" makes me wonder if you're assuming I'm including Raditz. But I guess you could be referring to the Saibaimen, now that I think about it.

I'm talking about the Saibaimen and then Nappa and Vegeta. Yes, the Saiyans are a team, but they don't fight together. The fight against Nappa has its own climax, so I consider it a separate fight. I can see why some think of it as one fight, this is just how I think of it.

[saiyanvegetable]

The fight against Frieza was the longest, and best fight in the series.

[emperior]

If a battle's choreography is great and is full of lore/great dialogues, then long battles like Goku vs Freeza and both Goku vs Vegeta's fights become a lot better and more memorable. If Goku immediately murdered Freezer after he went SSJ it wouldn't be as memorable as it is now.

As for Super, Goku vs Beerus was very good in my opinion. It was long enough and was animated well.

[Iberian_Saiyan]

If the fights are properly produced then it'll be a good time watching them, however, Super for example has been doing a terrible job with it. Either it's a dull battle that both opponents keep on avoiding each other or ki blasts without either one using their fists and feet to attack one another. As such, if the fights were like in One Punch Man I would love them but OPM is in a completely different level than Super so can't quite expect a below average show to compete with OPM.

Like, let's talk about comedy. Sometimes a joke isn't necessarily funny because the comedian or actor/actress failed to deliver it properly with the right tone or be in character. Here's a great example:

Spoiler:

Best to watch the video version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQc-ldoX3yI @ 3:04