Why do people like loooooooooooong fights?

[trick007z]

Goku vs Freeza is a perfectly paced fight, up to the transformation. Then it suffered from being a great fight that already had length to demanding an extended payoff of SSJ Goku going to town on Freeza. Though I always view the Freeza fight as a potential series ending fight so I don't mind it as much.

[Soppa Saia People]

The fight against Frieza was the longest, and best fight in the series.

I know personal preference and all that, but I really can't see how anybody could think this. For the topic, unless it's the last fight in the series, it should be no more then 5 episodes.

[trick007z]

The fight against Frieza was the longest, and best fight in the series.

I know personal preference and all that, but I really can't see how anybody could think this. For the topic, unless it's the last fight in the series, it should be no more then 5 episodes.

That's the thing though, a good argument can be made that Freeza was structured in a such a way that it lended itself to being the last fight of the series better than any other fight. It was the culmination of the mystery of Goku, his quest to become the strongest fighter, the mystery of Piccolo's race that was teased as far back as the 23rd Tournament arc, the whole Saiyan arc, and it was against a person who was regarded (and at the time was) the strongest in the universe.

After that there is a clear break in the story's narrative to reload for the Android arc and again for the Boo arc.

There are only two fights I might even put above the Freeza fight and that's Goku vs Vegeta and Goku vs Piccolo.

[Gaffer Tape]

Here are my main problems with the Freeza fight. One is that, up until Vegeta dies, nothing of any importance really happens. They fight. That's it. But there's really nothing to it. They just keep finding ways to one-up each other, but every gain the heroes make is totally pointless, with the biggest waste being Piccolo, who shows up, accomplishes nothing, and then just stands around in the background. The next problem is that, once Goku starts fighting, it's good that we're finally up to something that really matters. But Goku and Freeza have no connection. The Freeza story's never been about Goku. This story was Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta's. Goku's just some guy who shows up and is all, "Hey, I'm gonna punch you in the schnoz." And Freeza has no idea who Goku is. Thankfully, something personal develops between them eventually, but the whole thing just feels out of step with what the story has been focusing on up until this point. With the exception of Vegeta's death. That is very much in step with everything the arc has been about.

After that there is a clear break in the story's narrative to reload for the Android arc and again for the Boo arc.

Actually, there isn't a clear break in the narrative. Freeza and King Cold come to earth in the same chapter that the Freeza arc wraps up. There was never a solid ending point for the Freeza arc.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Well, Dragon Ball rarely has enough non-combat storyline to sustain itself week to week!

I tend to agree with Cipher; Dragon Ball is able to use its fights to advance other ends. Roshi's teaching Goku and Krillin humility by example, Goku's being destroyed by Tambourine after chasing him in uncharacteristic anger for obvious reasons, how Vegeta's character is outlined almost entirely in his battle with Goku despite already being present for a good while, or how the immediate pressure of the Buu arc allows Toriyama to throw and tie down story points left and right. It is not always done well, and we can certainly discuss what works and what does not, but I feel like a lot of this comes down to the long shadow of Freeza. He was a titanic slog at worst, but a very rare treat at best, in an monstrously popular and influential series, and people like to remember the good, even better that whether or not he merited a fight that long, you can at the very least make a case for it. Overall, though, the only other villain that really follows in his vein is Cell; Vegeta and Piccolo Jr.'s fights were adapted into five or six episodes, acceptable, I think, for climactic battles paced the way they were, and King Piccolo and Buu merited their all-consuming stories. Its really not Dragon Ball, its Freeza.

As for Super, I actually have no complaint about the Uni. 6 tournament's brisk fighting, it suits the format. I suspect some people are just confused that the kind of less power-oriented opponents that you would traditionally associate with the earlier matches of a World Tournament or the Afterlife Tournament are taking center stage in a new story. I welcome that, so I have not had that problem.

[saiyanvegetable]

The fight against Frieza was the longest, and best fight in the series.

I know personal preference and all that, but I really can't see how anybody could think this. For the topic, unless it's the last fight in the series, it should be no more then 5 episodes.

I really enjoyed how every Z fighter would throw their best at him and he would constantly find a way to outclass them. I think it's the best "boss battle" curb stomp I've seen in anime. Watching each warrior give their all and more only to fail was the best payoff to all that Buildup frieza had. Piccolo, vegeta, krillin, goku - right up until that spirit bomb. Then we get an interesting curb stomp the other way, with a new form that's also been buit up and too early for fans to take for granted. It dragged on forever, but I had no problem with it. It was the first time the buildup was worth it, too many times I've seen or read something that's building up and falls short. Of course Kai's version was even better.

I liked the Cell arc but I thought the androids were built up to be this menacing force only to have a lame 4 minute beat down. Then the Cell fight while enjoyable was a little underwhelming. Buu fight the end was pretty but I thought evil buu was way underdeveloped so I didn't find myself invested as much. Frieza was the epitome of defeating an a malevolent arch nemesis in against all odds in a no holds, world destroying, super saiyan brawl.

[ABED]

Here are my main problems with the Freeza fight. One is that, up until Vegeta dies, nothing of any importance really happens. They fight. That's it. But there's really nothing to it. They just keep finding ways to one-up each other, but every gain the heroes make is totally pointless, with the biggest waste being Piccolo, who shows up, accomplishes nothing, and then just stands around in the background. The next problem is that, once Goku starts fighting, it's good that we're finally up to something that really matters. But Goku and Freeza have no connection. The Freeza story's never been about Goku. This story was Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta's. Goku's just some guy who shows up and is all, "Hey, I'm gonna punch you in the schnoz." And Freeza has no idea who Goku is. Thankfully, something personal develops between them eventually, but the whole thing just feels out of step with what the story has been focusing on up until this point. With the exception of Vegeta's death. That is very much in step with everything the arc has been about.

After that there is a clear break in the story's narrative to reload for the Android arc and again for the Boo arc.

Actually, there isn't a clear break in the narrative. Freeza and King Cold come to earth in the same chapter that the Freeza arc wraps up. There was never a solid ending point for the Freeza arc.

I get what you're saying but Goku and Freeza are clearly on a collision course, so it's not like it comes out of nowhere and even if the story is Gohan, etc. that doesn't mean it would have been more cathartic if Gohan was the one to beat Freeza. Regarding Piccolo, without Piccolo's help, Goku would've died, so he does contribute to the battle.

I would say that Freeza's arc came to an end when he was defeated by Goku. He's a minor antagonist at the beginning of a new story. Trunks killing Freeza wasn't the climax.

[Gaffer Tape]

I would say that Freeza's arc came to an end when he was defeated by Goku. He's a minor antagonist at the beginning of a new story. Trunks killing Freeza wasn't the climax.

I'm not saying Trunks killing Freeza is part of the Freeza arc. It's not. I'm saying there's no clear, defining break for the series to feel like it ended or should have ended, which is what he was arguing. In the TV series, everything wraps up. Everyone comes back to life, the world is at peace, Piccolo walks off into the sunset, episode ends. Bam. Clear, defining line. Toriyama's version is not like that. Everyone comes back to life, and immediately Freeza comes to earth, what do we do, dun, dun dun! Chapter ends. Cliffhanger ending to start the new story! There's no moment where the audience can go, "Wow. Could that have been the last fight ever?" because the story immediately, in the same chapter, propels into the next arc. That's what I meant by that.

[trick007z]

I would say that Freeza's arc came to an end when he was defeated by Goku. He's a minor antagonist at the beginning of a new story. Trunks killing Freeza wasn't the climax.

I'm not saying Trunks killing Freeza is part of the Freeza arc. It's not. I'm saying there's no clear, defining break for the series to feel like it ended or should have ended, which is what he was arguing. In the TV series, everything wraps up. Everyone comes back to life, the world is at peace, Piccolo walks off into the sunset, episode ends. Bam. Clear, defining line. Toriyama's version is not like that. Everyone comes back to life, and immediately Freeza comes to earth, what do we do, dun, dun dun! Chapter ends. Cliffhanger ending to start the new story! There's no moment where the audience can go, "Wow. Could that have been the last fight ever?" because the story immediately, in the same chapter, propels into the next arc. That's what I meant by that.

Oh I get that. I just mean from a build up standpoint. From the break in the story after Raditz arrives to Earth there is a clear thread line that builds up on itself that culminates with the death of Freeza, the explosion on Namek, etc. The content from one point to the other is one story block on the next. The Android/Cell arc takes place after the conclusion to all the plot points. The Freeza arc, from my perspective, is one of the first points where you could kind of see that Toriyama was unloading everything in his arsenal for a final payoff. There ceased to be "work to be done".

It's abundantly clear that Toriyama decided to continue the series at some point during the fight with Freeza (I suppose the earliest would be when Piccolo and Nail fuse because they make a reference to Kami). But the Androids themselves pose a very isolated threat that had nothing to do with things that were overtly foreshadowed before or necessitated by what came before. It wasn't Goku still having a tournament to win, Piccolo spitting an egg out of his mouth, everyone being killed by the Saiyans, the mystery of Goku's origins still hanging over the series. It was a situation where this group that we had no reason to believe would ever return got retconned a bit so they could be tied to the new bad guys.

To get back to my point, the Freeza fight was very much set up to be a climactic potential story ending fight. Toriyama gave it that type of payoff. There was a point in that chapter where everything was resolved, however brief it was.

[rereboy]

I think hardly anyone would prefer the Freeza fight from DBZ to a Freeza fight remade with good animation, good artwork, good pacing, and no dragging or filler.

What people liked about the Freeza fight were the elements besides all the dragging, filler, out of model art, etc. They liked it besides all that because what was underneath all that was good enough to more than compensate it for them.

So, in short, I don't think people like things like that. They just put up with them if the rest makes it worthwhile.

As for why the production does it... Well, its mainly budget issues, talent issues, directing choices and the anime relation with the manga (if it's on going or not and how ahead of the anime it is).

An anime with no real budget issues , with good talent, a proper direction that doesn't want the anime to drag and with a manga that is far ahead, will probably have no so such issues.

[Duo]

I never preferred the longer fights. The manga and movies do it best for me. The best fights in the anime are the least padded, like in the Saiyan arc. I'm sure a lot of people agree with this.

[Lord Beerus]

I think the appeal of long fights come from the Western ideal that battles that are fought like wars, in the sense that they are drawn out and and last for lengthy period, feel more dramatic and intense. I think a lot of fans of Dragon Ball prefer fights to usually last for an extended period of time mainly because they want to feel more invested in the outcome. And the mindset that fans have in preference to fights is they have to last for lengthy period of time build more momentum and develop more drama to make you feel intrigued in the how the battle will play out and eventually end. It's why a lot fans love Goku vs. Freeza, despite its pacing issues. That battle felt like a war. There were dramatic twists and turns provided as the battle continued and you felt drawn in by the spectacle of how Goku was keeping up with Freeza and whether Freeza perhaps had an ace up his sleeve.

[ABED]

I understand but there's a point of diminishing returns. I think that the fight between Goku and Freeza could've felt just as intense, brutal, epic, and satisfying if they had finished in 4 maybe 5 episodes.

[Deathbringer]

I would say that the fights feel longer in the anime because in a manga you can just draw Goku punching Freeza and it takes up one panel and the reader can quickly look at it but in an anime the punch has to be shown in its entirety with Goku gearing up for the punch then show the impact of the punch before finally showing Freeza's reaction to being hit. It also doesn't help that, as we all know, they had to pad out the fights to not catch up with the manga. FMA Brotherhood didn't have this problem because they didn't have to worry about catching up with the manga so they could do an almost panel-for-panel adaptation, Attack on Titan spaces itself out into seasons and Gurren Lagann isn't based on a manga to begin with.

As for "why do people like these fights??" it just comes down to people liking the show since they were young and so the long fights become a staple of the show itself even though the manga's fights don't feel anywhere near as drawn out. Although hating on new fights just because they're not as long is dumb and it shows how much people think of long fights as just being a part of the series when they don't have to be. I would say that as long as the fight is satisfying it doesn't have to be long, I mean if people enjoyed the Tenka'ichi Budokai story arcs in Dragon Ball I can't see why they would be against the idea of Super doing the same thing.

[ABED]

It's been a while but they didn't really pad out the fight as much as pad out the episodes with cutaways to Earth or Bulma.

[floofychan333]

I personally think a 4-episode fight is the longest a fight should get. I'm currently watching the fight with Frieza, and I've actually been enjoying the filler to get a break from the endless screaming and fighting. I prefer DB to DBZ because its fights don't take forever, and the screaming is limited to the fight with Piccolo Jr.

[ABED]

I personally think a 4-episode fight is the longest a fight should get. I'm currently watching the fight with Frieza, and I've actually been enjoying the filler to get a break from the endless screaming and fighting. I prefer DB to DBZ because its fights don't take forever, and the screaming is limited to the fight with Piccolo Jr.

The filler rarely feels like a break as much as an interruption in the flow of the fight.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I understand but there's a point of diminishing returns. I think that the fight between Goku and Freeza could've felt just as intense, brutal, epic, and satisfying if they had finished in 4 maybe 5 episodes.

I got more of that satisfaction from Goku vs. Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) fight in highlight. I thought the transitional progression/regression pacing in that fight was excellently contained. Everything that was needed to be shown was shown, characters talked within fights or in between short few-second long breaks, and then the last climax, then end. Perfect. Or if they really just wanted to show a one-sided fight, then Gohan vs Cell or Vegeta vs. 19 did it for me equally well. Contained within halves of 2 episodes or 1 full episode. Got the point across and then they moved on to something else or a larger climax.

For me, it's because Super's production is so messy that trying to squeeze one fight into a single episode results in a mostly terribly animated and bland battle. Even with the best schedule, you cannot sustain an impressive fight for a solid 24 minutes. When you spread it out over multiple episodes, you can use cutaways and inconsequential subplots to allow for the actual battle scenes to look good. It means that one episode looking bad doesn't mean that the entire fight looks bad -- as was the case with Goku vs Botamo, for example. I don't want longer fights from a storytelling point of view, I want them because they generally improve the overall quality of the battle.

Fights only matter when things are accomplished in them or they actually display a gradual teetering for dominance within them. Very few Z fights really captured that post-Early Namek Saga. Most of the more common themes of the drawn out fights in the show have always been purposely one sided just to show off how strong a villain is. (Which can be a good tool if done correctly but it usually isn't when it is so obviously one-sided that the character just ends up flailing and stumbling). While knowing Goku SS3 was weaker than Beerus, we didn't need that to be emphasized for 4 episodes lets say just to get that point across. Not if all Goku would do was jump around and flail. The thing that modern DBZ never seems to do is allow characters to actually think on the spot or change up their tactics mid-fight. They usually just do the same action over and over or continue it until they waste all their ki or get tossed way. Thats why fights are drawn out these days. Because in-universe time seems to either move slower now to fill an episode or because characters are too slow to actually read their opponents besides their surface power levels. The pacing of U6 is debatable, but considering how DB isn't like Early Naruto where characters had to actually win fights by calculating, analyzing or examining their situations in their fights (something I actually did enjoy) because the thing that matters now in fights is just power ups, who is or isnt holding back, and who's attack actually damages whom. Simplistic conditions that don't need to be drawn out but always are. Slow reaction times to changes in a fight isn't build up at all, its just wasting time.

With Super, because the animation is also dreadfully poor (stiff and clunky movements), drawing out fights for the visuals and choreography aren't something that would give us the compromise. I don't like seeing characters just flail ki balls at each other or piling them all to no actual effect just to extend a fight. Or characters just dashing up to each other and throwing low-framed mindless thrusts or lunges for a good while before they transition into something else, but people like them just because they're fighting and moving. Thats not enough for me. (Both of Vegeta's former signature tactics)

Enough of this:

Spoiler:

More of this:

Spoiler:

[precita]

One reason I liked the Buu arc is most of the main fights didn't go on very long, or had variations in them to keep them interesting.

For example Vegito Vs. Buu is only 4 episodes. SSJ3 Goku Vs. Fat Buu is half an episode. Gohan Vs. Super Buu is only 2 episodes. Even most of the Gotenks Vs. Buu fights were extremely short.

[Kuririn Fan]

One reason I liked the Buu arc is most of the main fights didn't go on very long, or had variations in them to keep them interesting.

For example Vegito Vs. Buu is only 4 episodes. SSJ3 Goku Vs. Fat Buu is half an episode. Gohan Vs. Super Buu is only 2 episodes. Even most of the Gotenks Vs. Buu fights were extremely short.

Yeah, but from Gotenks to Genki Dama kill, fighting is 30 episodes long.
And Ss3 Goku vs Fat Boo is short because it's 1 manga chapter.