Lack of source material behind Dragon Ball Super

[MCDaveG]

I have finally finished my vizbig collection and reading trough the manga once again, I've stumbled upon the iconic scenes that Toriyama has drawn and they've made it to the series.
I have a strong opinion, that the success of the original series probably lies on Toriyama's design and ideas as that is something Super seems to lack.
DBGT had better choreography, but still lacked the interesting imagery and ideas, for example: Vegeta is being defeated by Freeza (with TOEI adding Freeza eats crab, which was awesome)
versus Super 17 bombarding the warriors over and over.
I think that the lack of source material is actually one of the biggest reasons, why is Super bombing creativelly overall. As they don't have anything to base upon and at the same time, lack the time necessary to pan out something good.

We know that Toriyama didn't have any creative input in the Z warriors vs Freeza henchmen fight in Ressurection F, except for ''and showdown between the heroes and 1000 warriors ensues somehow'',
but visually, it was marvelous and I loved every second of it.
And I do miss things like that in Super, things like Goku doing this stance against Cell at the start of the Cell Games, Gohan's rage blast against 3rd form Freeza, Father and son Kamehameha etc.
Like when Goku transforms to SSB in Super, it doesn't have any of that old gravitas. The characters are just there, some fight goes on, but the series have ended in 1996.

[sintzu]

It doesn't have any of that old gravitas. The characters are just there, some fight goes on.

This is another big problem Super has, it's writing is very simple and lackluster compared to the original which is probably due to Toriyama only giving them the main plot points and leaving the writing and gap filling to Toie's "talented" staff.

Unlike the manga where he wrote long detailed stories.

[Kuririn Fan]

I said something similar - the reason why fighiting sucks in GT and Super is because there isn't that Toriyama manga guidance. If you read the manga, you'll see that all the best moments of fights and story in general are from manga. He created that shit, and he knows it and does it the best.
And story did end in 1995, there isn't a canon, non video game continuation of the ending.

[Vijay]

Just wait!!!

NOW, SOME OF OUR LONG TIME AKIRA TORIYAMA FANS WILL RISE TO STAAP YOUR TERROR OF MASS SUPER TROLLIFICATION BY:

1. You dont like it. Ignore it

2. TOEI's doing its best. Its just their busy schedule prevents them from hiring & utilizing top-botch sorry, notch animators instead of newbies

3. You cannot expect same quality from a series which ended aeons ago, but kept ressurected by TOEI from time-to-time to keep them afloat from bankcruptcy

4. Budget constraints.

5. Timing constraints

6. Frame rate constraints

7. Ink constraints

8. Computer constraints

LOL!

My teacher used to say. No use playing violin behind buffalo's back.

Kinda like dat, talking abt Super's current condition. Its gone waay past "repairable" stage, kinda like ICU patient beyond his critical stage.

I get ur point though. Things like Goku's stance against Cell b4 going Full Power. As you said. The gravitas. The soul. The feel.

All those things are what makes DragonBall so "life-like" & Toriyama's contributions in various guidebooks only made it even more special

With Super, meh. Even if Toriyama draws a 1000 picture, it'll still suck. Why? Its a project doomed to suck right frm beginning imo. Just like GT. Like Kai. Kai 2.0

[i'mfuckingevil]

Honestly I have to say as a fan, I do not acknowledge Super as a canon continuation, despite it being so.

[sintzu]

Its a project doomed to suck right from beginning imo. Just like Kai. Kai 2.0

At least they kept the original video instead of reanimating it from the ground up in Super's quality.

We have a new accurate dub thanks to it and due to the filler being cut out we have a faster paced story that follows the manga a lot better then Z did.

So Kai with it's flaws still has some very strong positive points unlike Super.

[Vijay]

Its a project doomed to suck right from beginning imo. Just like Kai. Kai 2.0

At least they kept the original video instead of reanimating it from the ground up in Super's quality.

We have a new accurate dub thanks to it and due to the filler being cut out we have a faster paced story that follows the manga a lot better then Z did.

So Kai with it's flaws still has some very strong positive points unlike Super.

Mutual thoughts there. I've noticed how most of your posts/thoughts mirrors mine. Only with deeper, extensive points.

Yeah. We got faithful Kai Dub. Seamless flow akin to manga. And thankfully spared to "Super-type" animation which defines bottom of the barrel.

Kai looks like a masterpiece by comparison to Super for me now LOL

[sintzu]

Kai looks like a masterpiece by comparison to Super for me now LOL

At this point anything looks like a masterpiece compared to Super.

[Hellspawn28]

I think Super is doing a good job on the world building with Universe 6. We get to know more about the Dragon Ball universe more than we ever did before. We get to know about the origins of the Dragon Balls, the origins of the original Saiyan home planet and the idea of other universes out there is pretty original for Dragon Ball if you ask me. Not to mention the new characters we got so far are pretty cool. Hit seems to be interesting given that he is a assassin and he has a dark mystery feeling about him makes pretty awesome so far. We haven't had a character like him in a while.

[sintzu]

I think Super is doing a good job on the world building with Universe 6. We get to know more about the Dragon Ball universe more than we ever did before. We get to know about the origins of the Dragon Balls, the origins of the original Saiyan home planet and the idea of other universes out there is pretty original for Dragon Ball if you ask me. Not to mention the new characters we got so far are pretty cool. Hit seems to be interesting given that he is a assassin and he has a dark mystery feeling about him makes pretty awesome so far. We haven't had a character like him in a while.

Super's story is great but the production and writing need a lot of work and that's putting it nicely.

What I mean by writing is what's left up to Toie like character interactions and jokes.

[Lord Beerus]

I said something similar - the reason why fighiting sucks in GT and Super is because there isn't that Toriyama manga guidance. If you read the manga, you'll see that all the best moments of fights and story in general are from manga. He created that shit, and he knows it and does it the best.

I don't believe that. Toei has shown through the DBZ movies, that if they have the right talent and a proper, stable production, they can produce fantastic fights on their own devices.

[sintzu]

Toei has shown through the DBZ movies, that if they have the right talent and a proper, stable production, they can produce fantastic fights on their own devices.

The Buu arc is a better example cause it was on a weekly schedule as well and the manga didn't give the producers much to work with but they still managed to make fights that were just as good if not better then the rest of Z but unfortunately those people aren't working on Super.

[Kuririn Fan]

I said something similar - the reason why fighiting sucks in GT and Super is because there isn't that Toriyama manga guidance. If you read the manga, you'll see that all the best moments of fights and story in general are from manga. He created that shit, and he knows it and does it the best.

I don't believe that. Toei has shown through the DBZ movies, that if they have the right talent and a proper, stable production, they can produce fantastic fights on their own devices.

Yeah, but movies were still influenced by anime and anime by manga.

[Lord Beerus]

I said something similar - the reason why fighiting sucks in GT and Super is because there isn't that Toriyama manga guidance. If you read the manga, you'll see that all the best moments of fights and story in general are from manga. He created that shit, and he knows it and does it the best.

I don't believe that. Toei has shown through the DBZ movies, that if they have the right talent and a proper, stable production, they can produce fantastic fights on their own devices.

Yeah, but movies were still influenced by anime and anime by manga.

Only in terms of plot.

[Kuririn Fan]

And certain fight moments. But yeah, Toei knew their shit at the time.

[Desassina]

I disagree with Dragon Ball Super lacking in terms of great moments. It's just that a majority of it was told through BoG and RoF, and the fact that production values are lacking in comparison makes it all seem worthless. However, we had Gotenks appearing to fight, Ginyu coming back, Gohan's near death experience after Piccolo's sacrifice, Goku and Vegeta training, etc. I'm only picking up a few scenes and waiting for the dub to air in my country, but what I got from DB Super are a few moments of faithful and creative content, like Piccolo using multiform to charge up his Makankosappo, well after we forgot that it took time (ever since Raditz, to be honest), as well as his stretching limbs. It's more thoughtful than we think, put in motion as the original for the manga adaptation to use the 90s flair, while the movies are the weakest, in my opinion, because they drag on needless melee and fully animated combat.