New or Old animation

[samuraix123]

Hey guys!
I just wanna start off by saying that this isn't a hate topic or me saying that my opinion is better than yours. I know I could be wrong when I say this and I'm sure there's going to be someone that can correct me(and that's fine. it's kinda what I want.) But I feel the animation of today's time is kinda...bad compared to the past? I look back and see a lot of my favorite shows and movies from the 80's and 90's and I see the detail of stuff and it just makes me think, What happened today? why does the animation in a lot of shows today look so cheap? It's not like a have the nostalgia glasses on either. I love some stuff today but in terms of animation it just seems like it's not as good as it used to be. I don't want to believe that it's just me and i'm just getting old.
I prefer the older style animation. I think that's the reason why I don't watch much new anime is because I'm not a fan of the animation at all. I don't want it to sound like I absolutely hate Super's animation, but I think I'd prefer Super having GT's animation.
I'm also aware that Z had some funky moments here and there but I think I still prefer it over the new. and I guess this can apply as well to not only Dragonball, but just anime in general. one thing that gets me is why did Toei even bother making two movies (ROF & BOG) unless Super was just thought up after the movies? they could have used the budget money from those two movies and apply it to Super(or does it not work that way?) Now I'm not HUGE into a lot of new anime so is there stuff out there that's better in terms of good quality animation compared to the older stuff?

Please don't turn this into a US is better than Japanese battle. I'm just looking for some good answers at what is going on today. Maybe the industry is hurting and huge cuts has been made that I'm not aware of. there's no better place to get help than Kanzenshuu.

[sintzu]

One thing that gets me is why did Toei even bother making two movies (ROF & BOG) unless Super was just thought up after the movies ?

they could have used the budget money from those two movies and apply it to Super(or does it not work that way?)

Now I'm not HUGE into a lot of new anime so is there stuff out there that's better in terms of good quality animation compared to the older stuff?

Super was decided on thanks to F doing so well at the box office which is why it's the mess that it is.

They couldn't give it a movie's production but they could give it something better then it has now.

Attack on Titan is one of many great examples of modern anime making everything that came before look like nothing but don't expect anything close to that from Toie cause all they care about is $$$.

[samuraix123]

While I was recording Toonami tapes for a while I happened to record a marathon of that and seen it did look pretty cool how they were swinging on those cables and the camera was moving. I may just have to watch it when I get free time.

[sintzu]

I may just have to watch it when I get free time.

It'll show you what Super could look like if the company behind it gave a damn.

[Danfun64]

2d animation doesn't make that much difference. The main problem comes from the use of conspicuous CGI. Examples include Goku vs Beerus in BOG, most of the fight with Freeza in Resurrection 'F', and the opening of DB Super (haven't seen the show proper yet).

[kei17]

I hope this won't end up yet another pointless "analog vs digital" discussion by mixing up art skills with video technologies.

[Ajay]

I hope this won't end up yet another pointless "analog vs digital" discussion by mixing up art skills with video technologies.

I feel like it's already happening, sadly.

I think you can have a conversation about the aesthetic of a cel compared to its digital counterpart, but anything regarding quality of animation is irrelevant.

In most cases, nothing has changed about the way the animation is created. Kanzenshuu's production guide does a great job of showcasing the differences.

Definitely a must read for everyone.

[JulieYBM]

Modern Dragon Ball hasn't really had a chance to get in any well animated episodes or movies. At the same time? The original showswere not the best at their time, either.

[Blade]

Primarily, this debate begins and ends with industry attitudes and standards - both of which have shifted dramatically since digital animation fully superseded cell animation at Toei.

The main thing to keep in mind is that digital animation offers flexibility and re-usability that celluloid animation simply cannot compete with. As an industry step change, this led to said flexibilities of the digital medium being used to cut corners, and as such, save time and money in production. When combined with an overstretched industry, where cost-cutting and time-management have became increasingly prevalent, these sorts of corner-cutting measures have been implemented more and more against loosening standards and attitudes towards quality control, in an industry which, now more than ever, favours a finished product over a polished one.

The overarching take-home message is that the animation talent hasn't lessened any, and that digital animation in no-way negatively effects the potential quality of their output - it's everything else on a logistical level which is to blame.

If you combined 1990's industry time-scales and working standards with modern digital animation tools, the quality of the resultant product would undoubtably be far, far higher than the old celluloid animation from the old Dragonball anime.

[Desassina]

Great post, Blade! However, I have to point out that the kind of professional that you're looking for must have been self taught and should be well paid, which are two detractors in getting hired. I know, because I've been living of my skills (in some other field) without going through what the others effortlessly could (education is paid, after all), so I set myself the goal to adapt material well after its run. It's unfortunate, but that's the world I live in.

[samuraix123]

Awesome reply Blade.

[Wezenheim]

Why not both? In all honesty, it just depends on the show.

There are plenty of "classic" anime that feature wonderful animation. Yu Yu Hakusho is a popular example, as there are numerous examples of well done sequences in that show. Cowboy Bebop features some cool stuff as well. I also simply adore the aesthetics of that show in general. It might not be fair to compare the production for stuff like Cowboy Bebop to long running series though. Dragon Ball was never "amazing" as far as animation goes, but I absolutely love this sequence.

As far as modern anime goes, I feel as though there's a fair amount of stuff that's on par with, if not above much of the stuff from the past. If you want to compare Dragon Ball Super to another Toei product, I still think One Piece has some great episodes (despite some of its problems) thanks to work from people like Naotoshi Shida and yes, even Naoki Tate. Naruto Shippuden is often well animated. Then there's Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, of course.I don't really need to mention stuff like One Punch Man or Attack on Titan (which has already been cited), but I will throw Space Dandy in there, because I love it and its a show that likes to play around with style a bit, too. Go look up Space Dandy on sakugabooru, you'll find pages and pages of fascinating stuff. An interesting thing to note about that last clip is that it was apparently done by Bahi JD, someone who likes to use Flash animation, of all things, for a lot of his work. I (believe) Bahi JD has even done stuff for the previously mentioned One Punch Man.

An interesting example to think about is the series Hajime no Ippo, which has made the jump from more "traditional" animation to modern pretty nicely in my opinion. There aren't a ton of clips available on sakugabooru of Hajime no Ippo, but I think "more recent" seasons of the show look as good as they always have, if not better in some cases.

If you just want to compare old vs. new Dragon Ball, it's a toss up for me. Obviously, Super is often poorly animated, but I love this cut. We didn't get a whole lot of really interesting, off the wall crazy stuff in Z, but overall it is still miles above the average Super "fight" episode and I loved everything done by Keisuke Masunaga (like a good chunk of Goku vs. Cell). Plus even when the animation wasn't outstanding the choreography was usually nice. I really love how the Yo! Son Goku special looks though, I think that has a good art style, as did episode 16 (done by Iseki) of Super. So... I like both? When done well of course.

Blade summed it up pretty well from a production standpoint, and I can't add a whole lot on that front. Super is probably a product of Toei trying to fill Kai's timeslot, which could explain why it is pretty rushed. That's a shame, because it could be better than what it is. Still, Toei is trying to add more staff to the show. It probably won't make a huge difference, but at least it's something?

It all boils down to the show and what the people in charge do with it. I love classic cel animation, but I also love a lot of what I see from current animation.

[Desassina]

I always thought that Rurouni Kenshin had better drawings and animation in Shin Kyoto Hen (OVA) than in the original anime run, because its style was less detailed, but flowing with movement and no distortion, which most anime use to mask their choppiness.

https://45.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1o0 ... o1_500.gif

Bendy lines with different levels of thickness, flat colors filling their space in between, and no busy lighting and shade, but enough to tell that the characters are in their place. It's a great use of the digital process, in my opinion, which I still haven't found in Dragon Ball. The problem is that the latter makes use of light and shade as pieces of geometry that are static in the characters, instead of them blending and fading with the applied colors.

http://www.animeclick.it/images/Anime_b ... o-hen4.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/7 ... L1500_.jpg

Digital animation is great to make great use of the artists' lines and expression (static work, which can be scaled or cut to fit the aspect ratio, for example) with post processing effects through mathematical expressions (dynamic work, since most of them can be applied as layers). Dragon Ball had its moment with Kai through its remastering process, which brought out the best of it, when it was some of the best as well (in my opinion).

[samuraix123]

What's funny is both shows you and someone else mentioned I happened to have recorded a marathon of lol (Space Dandy & Attack on Titan) and that first episode of space dandy in my opinion looked incredible. so I guess there is stuff out there I just don't know a lot about it were I don't watch it much.
maybe it's also were I watched stuff like Vampire Hunter D and other stuff.
Not that it really matters because I wouldn't remember their names no way but who did stuff like this?

Now that looks awesome at-least to me.
Now the samuraix(my name ) trust and betrayal looked really good and seemed like it had good movement to the animation.

Also the reason why I'm not showing other clips of movies and shows because I wanted to try to keep it as close to Dragonball as I could.

[JulieYBM]

What's funny is both shows you and someone else mentioned I happened to have recorded a marathon of lol (Space Dandy & Attack on Titan) and that first episode of space dandy in my opinion looked incredible. so I guess there is stuff out there I just don't know a lot about it were I don't watch it much.
maybe it's also were I watched stuff like Vampire Hunter D and other stuff.
Not that it really matters because I wouldn't remember their names no way but who did stuff like this?

Now that looks awesome at-least to me.

Also the reason why I'm not showing other clips of movies and shows because I wanted to try to keep it as close to Dragonball as I could.

I'm pretty sure this is Yamamuro Tadayoshi, the character designer and animation director of all of the movies since Dragon Ball Z Movie #8, director of Fukkatsu no F and character designer of Dragon Ball Super. Yamamuro can't do that kind of thing any more and he seems to have learned nothing from working under directors more talented than him.

[samuraix123]

I do appreciate all the answers so far though guys. I was a little hesitate about even starting the topic because I didn't want it to turn into a fight or maybe someone thinking I'm trying to attack something when I'm not. I just like learning about how things are animated and such and couldn't imagine some of the work and hours that some people put into making some stuff move the way it does.

[Duo]

a novel.

Wonderful post and a delight to read through. I've been revisiting YYH recently and it's quality has just been astounding given more and more context over time. The Dark Tournament in particular is just ripe with incredible creativity in animation.

I'm going to go with the "Why not both?" answer some have said. It just depends on the property. As far as DB goes, my favorite in everything was the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai through Saiyan arc (plus Deadzone) era.

[Wezenheim]

a novel.

Wonderful post and a delight to read through. I've been revisiting YYH recently and it's quality has just been astounding given more and more context over time. The Dark Tournament in particular is just ripe with incredible creativity in animation.

I'm going to go with the "Why not both?" answer some have said. It just depends on the property. As far as DB goes, my favorite in everything was the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai through Saiyan arc (plus Deadzone) era.

Haha, "a novel" made me laugh! That post took far too long to write for what it was! Oh, thanks for the compliment as well!

Revisiting Yu Yu Hakusho is a treat these days, I really need to watch it all the way through again.

It really does just depend on the property and the people at the helm. One Punch Man, as pointed out by JulieYBM here and there, looks as good as it does because the people working on it were huge fans of the source material. This article about the show's production is a good read.

There's so much potential with the way animation is done today, and there is so much well-made stuff from the past and present that look good (Dragon Ball included!) that I simply can't pick which "style" I enjoy the most. Although you probably could replicate classic style with digital, if you really wanted to. You can even do a lot with basic programs like Flash (If anyone has the time, I think Bahi JD, the guy I mentioned before, has a Tumblr page worth checking out). From a pure "art style" standpoint, my favorite looks for Dragon Ball probably include the good stuff from the Boo arc, the Path to Power movie, and the Yo! Son Goku special. So I'm pretty torn indeed.

[Hellspawn28]

Both have their ups and downs. As someone who grew up with both anime and non-anime for over 20 years, I will say that I like the style of older animation better. However there is new animation that still looks good.

[Kuririn Fan]

Ofc the old animation, but if the new one looked like 2008 special, my opinion would have been different.