Trunks vs King Cold

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:27 pm

Personally, I don't much care for the kid. I wish he had gotten killed...

Anyway, when Trunks arrives in the main Z timeline, he fights Frieza and King Cold, and dispatches them both quite easily. However, it would have been nice if King Cold could have transformed. We know Frieza had four forms, and his brother Cooler five. It would stand to reason that Cold had at least three, if we follow the progression.

Now, he probably pranced about in his second form to show off how big and bad he was, but if he had a third or even fourth form, he would have been more than a match for the purple-haired boy from the future, and probably Gok as well.

That would have been a hell of a way to kick off the android saga.

Thoughts?

--EG

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:32 pm

Epsilon Grey wrote:Personally, I don't much care for the kid. I wish he had gotten killed...

Anyway, when Trunks arrives in the main Z timeline, he fights Freeza and King Cold, and dispatches them both quite easily. However, it would have been nice if King Cold could have transformed. We know Freeza had four forms, and his brother Cooler five. It would stand to reason that Cold had at least three, if we follow the progression.

Now, he probably pranced about in his second form to show off how big and bad he was, but if he had a third or even fourth form, he would have been more than a match for the purple-haired boy from the future, and probably Gok as well.

That would have been a hell of a way to kick off the android saga.

Thoughts?

--EG

I doubt that King Cold was capable of transforming into any forms more powerful than the one he was using when he arrived on Earth. Otherwise he would have done so immediately after Freeza was killed.

EDIT: It would have been nice if King Cold had transformed and prolonged the fight with Trunks, though.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:36 pm

Your progression doesn't make any sense. Cooler and Freezer were brothers, not father and son. The only way it "stands to reason" that Cold had at least 3 forms is if Cooler were Freezer's son. Which he wasn't. Therefore it doesn't.

And it would have been a rubbish way to kick of the Android saga.

Freezer: Who are you?
Trunks: I'm here to kill you!
*kills Freezer*
Trunks: Now I'm going to kill you, big purple guy.
Cold: No you don't.
*transforms, and kills Trunks*
Trunks: Crap. Now I can't tell those lot about the androids, or give Goku the heart medicine, therefore everyone will be killed by the androids. Oh, and I'm dead.
Cold: Now to kill you lot.
*kills everyone else*
Trunks: Not that it matters, since everyone is now dead. Including me. Why do I keep talking?
*Cold kills everyone on planet. Then leaves. Possibly for Rio*

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:39 pm

James R. Cadwell wrote:It would have been nice if King Cold had transformed and prolonged the fight with Trunks, though.

That was the only fight in the series that didn't take 5 billion episodes to see through. Prolonging it would have ruined the specialness.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:41 pm

A lot of people have hypothesized that King Cold actually was in the second form of the species; perhaps this was an oversight on Toriyama's part, but King Cold looks almost exactly like 2nd form Freeza.

But yeah... everyone said they could sense two ki... Freeza, and someone even stronger. Therefore, if King Cold was stronger, and Freeza could transform, we should be able to safely assume that King Cold could transform, as well.

Yeah, he seemed like too bad-ass of a character to get killed so quickly... but I guess that was the point.

Side-note, it's not like Daisuke Goro ran out of people to voice...

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:49 pm

I always disliked the idea that Cold was stronger than Freezer. It just makes Freezer seem a bit...pointless, if we know that his dad could beat him up. But I can't think of any real way to explain away the dialogue, except that maybe the ki everyone thought was Freezer's was actually Cold's (their ki could have been very similar, since they were family), and the "stronger" one was new improved mecha-Freezer. No-one thought it was him because they wouldn't understand how he got stronger so quickly.

(LOG II makes Cold weaker than Freezer, so obviously someone agrees with me).

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:54 pm

Your progression doesn't make any sense. Cooler and Freezer were brothers, not father and son. The only way it "stands to reason" that Cold had at least 3 forms is if Cooler were Freezer's son. Which he wasn't. Therefore it doesn't.

Clarification: Something like this, King Cold, the father, has at least three forms. So, his sons, perhaps because of the mate King Cold chose, get extra forms beyond that. Or, simply, Frieza never bothered to reach the fifth form, and all changelings potentially have five forms.

And it would have been a rubbish way to kick of the Android saga.

What better way to start off a saga than a fight? One that they all could have joined in on. Goku would have plopped down in the middle, and they could melee like there was no tomorrow. (as usual)

Besides, from a fanfic perspective, Trunks is a like a Mary-Sue, who just swoops down and fells two strong enemies with ease. Granted, being the son of two main characters gives him a foothold, but I would have preferred the little runt never have been born.

Thank you Ex, for your agreeance. <---not a word.

--EG

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:59 pm

PsyLiam wrote:I always disliked the idea that Cold was stronger than Freezer. It just makes Freezer seem a bit...pointless, if we know that his dad could beat him up. But I can't think of any real way to explain away the dialogue, except that maybe the ki everyone thought was Freezer's was actually Cold's (their ki could have been very similar, since they were family), and the "stronger" one was new improved mecha-Freezer. No-one thought it was him because they wouldn't understand how he got stronger so quickly.

(LOG II makes Cold weaker than Freezer, so obviously someone agrees with me).

Doesn't the dialogue go something like this?

Some Person (Possibly Yamucha): Wow, that's really a terrifying "ki".

Some Person (Possibly Gohan): No, that's not all of it. It gets much greater.

Some Person (Possibly Yamucha Again): And who is that with a much greater "ki"?

If that's anywhere close to correct, Freeza might not have been using his full power when whoever it was sensed that Cold was stronger.

EDIT:

PsyLiam wrote: Freezer: Who are you?
Trunks: I'm here to kill you!
*kills Freezer*
Trunks: Now I'm going to kill you, big purple guy.
Cold: No you don't.
*transforms, and kills Trunks*
Trunks: Crap. Now I can't tell those lot about the androids, or give Goku the heart medicine, therefore everyone will be killed by the androids. Oh, and I'm dead.
Cold: Now to kill you lot.
*kills everyone else*
Trunks: Not that it matters, since everyone is now dead. Including me. Why do I keep talking?
*Cold kills everyone on planet. Then leaves. Possibly for Rio*

This is hilarious.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:04 pm

Epsilon Grey wrote:
And it would have been a rubbish way to kick of the Android saga.
What better way to start off a saga than a fight? One that they all could have joined in on. Goku would have plopped down in the middle, and they could melee like there was no tomorrow. (as usual)

But there are only 2 possible outcomes to that fight:

1/ The good guys win. This means that things would have progressed like they really do, and time would have been wasted on a "pointless" fight.

2/ The good guys lose. They are killed. The series ends.

Besides, from a fanfic perspective, Trunks is a like a Mary-Sue, who just swoops down and fells two strong enemies with ease.

You mean Deus Ex Machina, not Mary-Sue.

And as I said, he isn't. If he'd turned up on Namek during the fight with Freezer, then yeah, he's a Deus Ex Machina. But Freezer and Cold are there for his benefit, not the other way around. Freezer was dead, we'd never heard of King Cold. They weren't An Ultra Big Threat that needed sorted out. Toriyama wanted so introduce a character from the future who would warn out heroes about a threat so awesome that it had killed all of them. He wanted to show that this threat was more powerful than this new character. If he had shown Trunks to be weak, then everyone would have said "Oh, what's the problem? We'll beat them easily". But by showing Trunks to be uber-strong, it makes us worried. "Oh my god, this boy can kill Freezer without breaking a sweat, and yet these artificial humans are even strong than him! We really are up shit creak here."

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:08 pm

I tend to agree with PsyLiam for the most part, but I wouldn't have minded if King Cold had transformed. I figure there could have been a Dramatic Build-Up(tm) while King Cold transformed into his final form, then he gets a few minutes while everyone marvels at his amazing power. Then he takes a few swings at Trunks and gets decapitated.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:12 pm

It might have worked like that. But it also could have ended up being redundent.

Of course, with as many pointless redundent filler episodes as DBZ has...

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:42 pm

I would've preferred it like this...

King Cold begins to transform, groaning in pain as his body twists and contorts. The skies darken, lightning flashes, the ground trembles, the Z warriors stare in shock at his awesome power... Kuririn writes out his will... Vegeta flies into Cold's ship and takes off... Piccolo goes into a monologue about why they're doomed... Trunks just stares, his face cool and calm...

Then, quick as a flash, Trunks draws his sword and makes sushi of King Cold. He turns to the rest of the gang and comments:

"You didn't really think I was going to let him transform, did you?"

Hehe. ^_^

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:56 pm

Now that I would have liked to have seen.

Standing around while the Ultra Super Bad Guy transforms into his Ultimate Form has to be high on the "top ten stupid things DBZ characters do".

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:08 pm

It is true. The only time attacking a villian while they were transforming happened was when Cell finally absorbed #18. And that was Mirai Trunks. Who once again always goes against DBZ plotting and destroys his enemies quickly. It's too bad in that case it didn't work.

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:17 pm

Well, I'm just biased because I feel Trunks should have been slain as a child by a wandering dinasaur or something. Future Gohan shoulda been the one to axe the 'droids. So much for all his 'potential'. We see the same thing happen in the main timeline.

Fine. Go snuggle with Trunks. See how warm he keeps you at night. I'll be comforted by my dreams of a 4th from King Cold ripping the purple-haired Vegeta spawn's head off, laughing manicallly. So what if it mangles the plot? I want it.

Yeah...as for the villain 5 minute+ power up time, they should be able to just flash into it, as if going SSJ. All that posturing and roaring, it always looks like they're about to drop a deuce.

--EG

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:18 pm

Epsilon Grey wrote:Well, I'm just biased because I feel Trunks should have been slain as a child by a wandering dinasaur or something. Future Gohan shoulda been the one to axe the 'droids. So much for all his 'potential'. We see the same thing happen in the main timeline.

Fine. Go snuggle with Trunks. See how warm he keeps you at night. I'll be comforted by my dreams of a 4th from King Cold ripping the purple-haired Vegeta spawn's head off, laughing manicallly. So what if it mangles the plot? I want it.

Yeah...as for the villain 5 minute+ power up time, they should be able to just flash into it, as if going SSJ. All that posturing and roaring, it always looks like they're about to drop a deuce.

--EG

I got the impression that some of the transformations were only supposed to have taken place over a few seconds in the manga.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:36 pm

I agree. I guess we could put them in the same weird time-dilation catagory as the "5 minute" fight between Goku and Freezer.

Epsilon Grey wrote:Well, I'm just biased because I feel Trunks should have been slain as a child by a wandering dinasaur or something. Future Gohan shoulda been the one to axe the 'droids. So much for all his 'potential'. We see the same thing happen in the main timeline.

No we don't. Cell kills #16 and #18 (sorta), and #17 is still alive.

Granted, the story could have been done with Future Gohan in the Trunks role. It could have been interesting. We'd have seen our Gohan reacting to his future self, who might have turned out differently, and there could have been much good character stuff. But then we wouldn't get Trunks, who is a pretty good character. And Future Self coming back to alter his Past Self is one of the most overused time travel ideas ever.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:52 pm

I think it would have been cool if Cold had transformed to his 3rd form, beaten up Trunks and Vegeta, and then Goku had used his teleportation to pop in and blast him. Bye-Bye Cold.

Of course, then Trunks would have known of Goku's power and we wouldn't have seen the cool 'Goku blocks 'sword swipes that killed Frieza' with only a FINGER!' So, yeah.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:04 pm

I think that might have been a bit muddled. Instead of "wow, who is this really strong guy", we'd have gotten "who is this really strong guy...oh wait, he's just been beaten. He can't be that strong. Tsk."

Toriyama may occasionally be a bit muddled in his storytelling (due to making it up as he goes along), but he did get this just right, I think.

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:51 pm

No we don't. Cell kills #16 and #18 (sorta), and #17 is still alive.

Yes we do! Not in the Cell saga, but Gohan is eventually relegated to the back-burner in the Buu saga (despite his mystic training), and most def in GT. (abhorrent)

Thusly, I mean to say, verily, that Gohan's pototential is not enough to make him effective in the alternate timeline (yes, he could take on one android, but not both, you'd think he would at some point used that Gohan rage and busted some skulls), nor is it enough to get him through the Buu saga as a lead.

But, yes, it would have been neato to get a dark, colder Gohan coming back to his innocent (relatively) childhood self. And we'd loose that schmuk Trunks. =)

--EG

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