Is Goku a superhero?

[Kamiccolo9]

Much to think about. Thanks man.

And I promise to tie this back in with DB soon. I just can't do the thread justice on a phone.

[Luke Groundwalker]

No. To me the sole thing that sets superheroes apart from regular heroes isn't their superpowers, but how active they are helping others. In Superman's spare time he saves innocent people, in Goku's spare time he trains to get stronger and doesn't help anyone but himself.

[Kunzait_83]

Much to think about. Thanks man.

And I promise to tie this back in with DB soon. I just can't do the thread justice on a phone.

No problem. Looking forward to it.

To once more hammer this home more concisely though: I don't think its even remotely justified to compare Dragon Ball's genre makeup/history with that of pretty much ANY Western superhero comic. The parallels just aren't there (and whatever small scraps might be are just WAY too minute and tiny to really matter much), and the only reason that they SEEM like they're so strongly comperable for so many fans presently today is almost solely due to the present day fandom's stunning lack of familiarity with and lack of exposure to classical martial arts fiction & media (wuxia and otherwise) throughout the last 15-17-ish years or so, which is further compounded by an OVER familiarity with superheroes. Throw the FUNimation dub and its "reversioning" of tone and various plot/character points to stoke that fire even further, and that just seals it.

The unique cultural situation and the freakishly imbalanced media exposure for the millennial generation of Western DB/anime fandom correlate towards painting this false narrative of Dragon Ball as being primarily of a piece with Marvel and DC-like material rather than the kinds of supernatural and comedically oriented martial arts fantasy media that utterly dominated much of the "geek" cultural landscape (in the East for damn sure, but also to a fair degree even in the West) for quite some time just prior to the pop cultural timeframe of the typical Toonami-era DBZ fan.

[Kamiccolo9]

The western hero with the biggest similarity to Goku, in my opinion, would probably be Thor, especially since the JMS reboot. That would be a fun thread, I think. And I do love me some Thor. There's a lot more in common than one might expect.

[Kunzait_83]

Never really considered that, but I THINK I can sorta see where you're going with that? Maybe? Thor at least comes from a more "ancient mythical fantasy warrior" archetype (albeit one that's SO far from Asian or martial arts-related in its cultural roots its comical), which is at least SORT of closer to the same rough ballpark of fiction that Goku comes from than most of anyone else on average in the Marvel & DC canon usually tend to.

That said, he still does more than his share of outright superheroing many, many a time over and then some, and (from what I can recall of him from back in the day: was never much of a Thor fan myself) while its not as inherently baked into his nature, the ideal of "helping and defending the innocent" quickly became a much, much bigger part of his driving motive, certainly at least from his time and experience around the other Avengers (correct me if I'm wrong on that, I'm going by distantly remembered/half forgotten old-ass comics here, not anything recent or the movies: again, not a Thor person). Still, he's got more than a bit of that "oh man, I'm so excited to test my strength against this worthy foe!" edge to him at times, that much I do know.

Then there's the whole Asgard thing, which if you really wanted to reach you could maybe spin as a Norse-ified take on a Jianghu-like setting (or more accurately a wuxia afterlife with its pantheon of deities). Maybe? Again, I think I can see where you might be going there. At least it stems from a sort of "ancient cultural warrior myth".* The comparison I suppose works in a sort of similar way that the comparison between Wuxia and European High Fantasy works, though Norse myth by far and away hasn't embedded itself and evolved as a mainstream genre of fiction within modern day pop/geek culture to anywhere near the same degrees that both Wuxia and Euro High Fantasy have: Marvel's Thor is about the only really notable representative I can think of offhand.

It's still not anywhere at all even close to a direct 1 to 1 comparison still, but it still at least drifts vaguely closer(-ish) to the mark than someone like Superman or Batman or Iron Man or Silver Surfer or the X-Men or Spidey or Captain America or whomever else have you (all of whom have literally bupkis in common with Goku or much of anything else of note in DB).

*Wonder Woman also dips into stuff like this too, but that's all still SO deeply rooted and invested in its own heavily gender-based themes and sexual politics that its even WAY further divorced from comparison with something like DB.

[rereboy]

But apply it to real life examples, would a doctor be more heroic if he/she didn't have a social or family life? What if the hospital and patients ALWAYS came first? What if all they ever did when they weren't eating or sleeping was treating patients?

Gohan didn't sacrifice his friends, family, career and so on because of Saiyaman, but he still, through Saiyaman, showed concern in being proactive and using his abilities to stop bad things. If Gohan was already an hero due to everything he had done during the Cell arc and before, he only became an hero of even greater worth by doing that.

That didn't answer the question.

Actually it did. You implied that it wouldn't be heroic if all a character did was that, and I demonstrated, with Gohan, that a character doesn't have to only do that, he can be proactive and demonstrate a care and will to stop bad things while still not neglecting other things.

[Kamiccolo9]

@Kunzait
oh yeah, its ot a one for one comparison, but there are plenty of similarities, especially if you're familiar with Thor. I've jus about decided to make a whole thread about that, and I'd love your participation. Again, this will all be once I've got access to my computer. I'll be preoccupied this weekend, but that sounds like a fun project.

[Polyphase Avatron]

No. To me the sole thing that sets superheroes apart from regular heroes isn't their superpowers, but how active they are helping others. In Superman's spare time he saves innocent people, in Goku's spare time he trains to get stronger and doesn't help anyone but himself.

There are some superheroes who will only help people if they get paid for it...

[rereboy]

No. To me the sole thing that sets superheroes apart from regular heroes isn't their superpowers, but how active they are helping others. In Superman's spare time he saves innocent people, in Goku's spare time he trains to get stronger and doesn't help anyone but himself.

There are some superheroes who will only help people if they get paid for it...

Those are anti-heroes or anti-superheroes.

[Kunzait_83]

There are some superheroes who will only help people if they get paid for it...

Those are anti-heroes or anti-superheroes.

Ahem.



Ain't nothin' "anti" about Heroes for Hire.

[rereboy]

There are some superheroes who will only help people if they get paid for it...

Those are anti-heroes or anti-superheroes.

Ahem.



Ain't nothin' "anti" about Heroes for Hire.

It depends on who you are talking about. The cast of heroes for hire rotated frequently.

Some of the guys would be proactive in helping people, even if heroes for hire didn't exist. Their core motivation isn't money.

And others are guys like Deadpool.

Generalizing a team like that usually doesn't work. Not even regarding the avengers it would work because Hulk is there.

[ABED]

Actually it did. You implied that it wouldn't be heroic if all a character did was that, and I demonstrated, with Gohan, that a character doesn't have to only do that, he can be proactive and demonstrate a care and will to stop bad things while still not neglecting other things.

No, it doesn't answer the question, if someone only does that, are they more heroic? I'm well aware that a character doesn't have to only do that, they can do both, but that wasn't my question.

[rereboy]

No, it doesn't answer the question, if someone only does that, are they more heroic? I'm well aware that a character doesn't have to only do that, they can do both, but that wasn't my question.

Yes, it does. By demonstrating that he wouldn't have to do that, i'm already making it implicit that even though that is a possibility (it's possible for that to happen), it's not really relevant because he doesn't have to do that nor did I say that that was required.

If you really have that much trouble interpreting what i'm saying, i'm going to try to make it more clear:

- Goku could have been a hero of even greater worth if he cared a little more about using his abilities to stop bad things, like Gohan;

- he wouldn't have to do that 24 hours per day to achieve that, even the same care that Gohan had would already do that;

- a character that neglected his family and friends to stop evil 24 hours per day, could possibly be less heroic depending on the situation, but I never said that that was required and thus it's beside my point.

[i'mfuckingevil]

Lol at Krrissh reference there pal. Dat film was absolute joke. Except Hrithik's suave presence, nothing was "good" abt the film. Talk abt having comic/manga as its source of adaptation. Bollywood got this habit of fu*king things up regardless of how great its original material is. Hrithik's Bang Bang is classic example of Bolly ruined TC's Knight & Day

Why am I not surprised that someone here missed the point about the Krrish reference

It's not about your personal opinion of the movie. The point was (regardless of your opinion) it is categorized as a superhero film, despite not having any comic book history.

[ABED]

Yes, it does. By demonstrating that he wouldn't have to do that, i'm already making it implicit that even though that is a possibility (it's possible for that to happen), it's not really relevant because he doesn't have to do that nor did I say that that was required.

If you really have that much trouble interpreting what i'm saying, i'm going to try to make it more clear:

- Goku could have been a hero of even greater worth if he cared a little more about using his abilities to stop bad things, like Gohan;

- he wouldn't have to do that 24 hours per day to achieve that, even the same care that Gohan had would already do that;

- a character that neglected his family and friends to stop evil 24 hours per day, could possibly be less heroic depending on the situation, but I never said that that was required and thus it's beside my point.

Just answer it yes or no. I'm well aware that it's not one or the other, that you can have a balanced life, but that isn't the question I'm asking. I don't care if it's beside your point, this is MY point. I'm getting to the essence or principle of the matter.

[rereboy]

And, like I said, I've already answered it. I even wrote a simple point by point summary that addressed what was in discussion and answered you. I can't interpret my posts for you. Like I said in my post: possibly.

[ABED]

And, like I said, I've already answered it. I even wrote a simple point by point summary that addressed what was in discussion and answered you. I can't interpret my posts for you. Like I said in my post: possibly.

So in other words you have no principle for this, it's just whatever you feel is heroism or is it a floating abstraction or is it a case where just look and you know?

"Even if you believe that Goku is a hero, like I do, I don't see any way to deny that Goku would have bigger worth as a hero if he concerned himself a little more with using his abilities to stop bad things like Gohan did. It would merely add to him, not detract from him, as a hero."
It isn't about denial, you first have to have a conception of what a hero is before you can say something like this. It's true that you don't have to forsake a personal life to be a hero, but the assumption in this statement is that the more you do to help others, the more heroic you are.

I'm trying to boil down what you think heroism is. I'm not going character by character, situation by situation and asking "is that heroic" or "is that more heroic"? I'm trying to discover what you think is the principle.

[rereboy]

And, like I said, I've already answered it. I even wrote a simple point by point summary that addressed what was in discussion and answered you. I can't interpret my posts for you. Like I said in my post: possibly.

So in other words you have no principle for this, it's just whatever you feel is heroism.

No, in other words, it really depends on the details of the situation. What kind of neglect are we talking about? How big is it? Could it be prevented without meaning the sacrifice of other people's lives? Would the person in question be even able to juggle the hero life with his friends and family or would trying to do both would just hurt both lives? How does he really compare to another guy who is able to juggle both sides better? Etc, Etc.

It's obvious that someone so obsessed in being a hero and doing heroics could become "blind" enough to neglect people, namely the ones closer to him, and in that case, someone who manages to balance his life better, might be a hero of even greater worth than the one who doesn't manage to do it. We would have to look at the specific situation in detail to judge it properly.

I think you don't even have an argument here, you just asked a general question that hinges on details and specifics and you just wanted a "yes or no" question to make it appear like what I said is somehow inconsistent. It isn't.

I'm trying to boil down what you think heroism is. I'm not going character by character, situation by situation and asking "is that heroic" or "is that more heroic"? I'm trying to discover what you think is the principle.

My point was mainly about superheroes. A hero is very different and something much easier to encounter. In short, anyone who faces obstacles and overcomes difficult odds and/or does something of great worth is or can basically be considered a hero.

A guy who fights bravely in a war, distinguishing himself? Hero.

Someone who stands up to injustice around the world, inspiring millions? Hero.

Someone who sacrifices himself everyday for the sake of his family? I'm sure that at least to his family he is considered a hero.

Even the national team of a sport who conquers the world championship can be considered heroes.

It really isn't that hard to be considered a hero.

But there's just heroes of different worth. There are heroes that are bigger than others. When comparing two heroes, one of them will be a bigger hero if it's obvious that he cares and does more to help others or similar than the other.

Goku is a hero because he did things of great worth and overcame difficult odds and obstacles with bravery and talent, while inspiring others... but if he cared a little more about helping others like Gohan he would easily be a even bigger hero and, depending on how he did it, he could fit even fit the term of superhero, if he did basically what Gohan did with his Saiyaman.

[ABED]

But there's just heroes of different worth. There are heroes that are bigger than others. When comparing two heroes, one of them will be a bigger hero if it's obvious that he cares and does more to help others or similar than the other.

And not going out intentionally saving people doesn't detract from Goku's heroism. He did a lot to help people. I just find it ridiculous to say "well, he saved all of those people from that horrible monster." "Yeah, well, he's not as heroic as he could've been if he had saved that other group from that other monster." What really detracts from his heroism is ultimately that Goku does some questionable things like letting Vegeta live in order to fight him. I wouldn't go as far as calling him evil or even an anti-hero, but that's the sort of thing that's is a strike against him. Trying to boil the degree of heroism due to something like "he doesn't actively go out and search for people to save" doesn't taint his heroism at all, letting Piccolo in order to have an adversary is. So yes, I still stand by my original statement that it all depends on what your view of heroism is.

[rereboy]

And not going out intentionally saving people doesn't detract from Goku's heroism.

That's what I had already said:

Even if you believe that Goku is a hero, like I do, I don't see any way to deny that Goku would have bigger worth as a hero if he concerned himself a little more with using his abilities to stop bad things like Gohan did. It would merely add to him, not detract from him, as a hero.