Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Hmm, but goku had no idea piccolo was training with gohan.

Tho granted goku did sense piccolo's ki while he was fighting gohan.

Ok so final form frost=ssj3 goku(bog)
Weakened like ssj2 and piccolo is at say SPC level?

Hmm i simply assume since he trained with gohan for months and gohan was in the buu saga above ssj3 tier, gohan would have gotten most of that power back so in turn piccolo would have jumped to ssj3 tier.

And in turn, final form frost would be around buuhan's level, while weakened he drops to ssj3 tier.

If Goku tracked Piccolo's ki while he was fighting Gohan and didn't remark his strength, why would Piccolo suddenly be at Boo's level? Vegeta saw Gohan and Piccolo fighting Beerus and still thought Boo was the strongest among them.

[namekiansaiyan]

Hmm, but goku had no idea piccolo was training with gohan.

Tho granted goku did sense piccolo's ki while he was fighting gohan.

Ok so final form frost=ssj3 goku(bog)
Weakened like ssj2 and piccolo is at say SPC level?

Hmm i simply assume since he trained with gohan for months and gohan was in the buu saga above ssj3 tier, gohan would have gotten most of that power back so in turn piccolo would have jumped to ssj3 tier.

And in turn, final form frost would be around buuhan's level, while weakened he drops to ssj3 tier.

If Goku tracked Piccolo's ki while he was fighting Gohan and didn't remark his strength, why would Piccolo suddenly be at Boo's level? Vegeta saw Gohan and Piccolo fighting Beerus and still thought Boo was the strongest among them.

I have thought about this and have come to the conclusion that he Goku eill only comment on someones power if they are close to him or more powerful.

[pacz360]

Idk why people are thinking base god goku is gotten weak all of sudden.

[Hugo Boss]

I have thought about this and have come to the conclusion that he Goku eill only comment on someones power if they are close to him or more powerful.

Even if you think Piccolo is much weaker than Goku, this conclusion isn't quite right. For example, Piccolo wasn't even close to Goku's level in the Cell Games and Goku still commented on his power increase.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

It doesn't seem like Piccolo would make a huge improvement and Goku not commenting on it, like he did with Freeza in the previous battle.

[Bullza]

Again I'll ask, if base Goku or Vegeta fought against Final Form Frost using the same strategy that Piccolo used and went on the evasive and defensive whilst powering up a single powerful attack then isn't it possible that they could have pulled it off just as well if not better than Piccolo?

They might be weaker than Frost so going SSJ would still be necessary but they might have been able to put up a better fight than what Piccolo did.

That way the base Saiyans could still be above Piccolo.

[kinisking]

Hmm, but goku had no idea piccolo was training with gohan.

Tho granted goku did sense piccolo's ki while he was fighting gohan.

Ok so final form frost=ssj3 goku(bog)
Weakened like ssj2 and piccolo is at say SPC level?

Hmm i simply assume since he trained with gohan for months and gohan was in the buu saga above ssj3 tier, gohan would have gotten most of that power back so in turn piccolo would have jumped to ssj3 tier.

And in turn, final form frost would be around buuhan's level, while weakened he drops to ssj3 tier.

If Goku tracked Piccolo's ki while he was fighting Gohan and didn't remark his strength, why would Piccolo suddenly be at Boo's level? Vegeta saw Gohan and Piccolo fighting Beerus and still thought Boo was the strongest among them.

When was this?

[Hugo Boss]

That was when Goku and Vegeta were choosing the fighters who would enter their team. First, the Boos. Then, Piccolo and Gohan. Vegeta even argued that Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, so power is his main criterion.

[kinisking]

That was when Goku and Vegeta were choosing the fighters who would enter their team. First, the Boos. Then, Piccolo and Gohan. Vegeta even argued that Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, so power is his main criterion.

Oh so was the Beerus thing a typo?

[Hugo Boss]

That was when Goku and Vegeta were choosing the fighters who would enter their team. First, the Boos. Then, Piccolo and Gohan. Vegeta even argued that Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, so power is his main criterion.

Oh so was the Beerus thing a typo?

No no, I mean Vegeta saw everyone fighting Beerus in the ship, including Boo, Gohan and Piccolo.

[buutenks]

That was when Goku and Vegeta were choosing the fighters who would enter their team. First, the Boos. Then, Piccolo and Gohan. Vegeta even argued that Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, so power is his main criterion.

That was before they saw piccolo and gohan training tho.

Still, if piccolo didnt gain much power then it means base goku has suddenly become much much weaker or he was holding back a ton, which wouldnt make sense considering he went ssj.

So only conclusion is that final form frost is above base goku who is above good buu and in turn so is piccolo.

That or the 2 base theory is real ^^

[apex_pretador]

on goku's base vs freeza debate:
Goku agreed with beerus. I don't think anything else is needed.

Spoiler:

It would be needed if you wanted absolute conclusiveness, which is something entirely lacking since we are missing Beerus words about fighting a Base Goku who is exerting himself. We know that Goku has perfect control over his ki, if he's not fighting he can bring ki down. Since he's just seen training "lightly" in movie, anime and manga, Goku could be at 20% or 30% for all we know.

There's the flaw in this entire argument. You are saying Goku can't be suppressed and can't agree he may not be stronger than Freeza in his suppressed state.
I may go on with saying the Vegeta argument carries more weight than Beerus' in the Buu Saga, because he has sufficient knowledge about both Piccolo and himself.
You know, there is a thin line between saying a theory is more foolproof than another or, say you are more inclined to believe a theory and just dismissing something debatable as undebatable. You want to take Beerus' word for confirmation that Goku < Freeza? Okidoki, fine, legitimate, but your mileage may vary.

I don't even like the Base > Freeza theory, and I prefer to keep the guys weaker than Freeza. But this whole "thou shall accept Beerus' word on the matter as the Bible. Oh, btw, Vegeta is overestimating himself just because in the Buu Saga, Goku is for sure at 100% when he meets Beerus just because, and Base Gohan is casually weaker than Final Form Freeza even in the Movie Universe just because" is silly.

But let's go deeper, shall we? If you wanted to take Beerus' words at face-value he's implying Super Saiyan Goku may barely be able to beat Freeza ("Oh, I see, you may be able to beat Freeza in that state"), when Super Saiyan Goku can at the very least take on Perfect Cell at that point.

Goku (suppressed, he isn't even fighting; no aura at all) = 1,000,000
Beerus feels Goku's ki: "hey, how come you are far weaker than Freeza?".

Goku (base) = 500,000,000 -> can curbstomp Final Form Freeza better than Gohan, in TOEI's eyes.
Goku (SS) = 25,000,000,000
Beerus: "Oh, I guess you could beat Freeza like that, right?".

Which is just Beerus being uninterested: we know for a fact that Goku is massively stronger than Freeza in SS form by the time of the Cell Saga, so he is just downplaying his strenght anyway. Or maybe Goku is suppressed in his Super Saiyan form anyway and he's barely above Freeza because he doesn't know Beerus strenght at the time the comment takes place.

To me, beerus saying that base goku can't beat freeza is not a solid evidence , but goku AGREEING to beerus' comment is. He will not agree with something false, especially if it is about his power. Beerus also says that super saiyan goku can beat freeza now. Goku still says nothing.

[LowRyder2005]

on goku's base vs freeza debate:
Goku agreed with beerus. I don't think anything else is needed.

Spoiler:

It would be needed if you wanted absolute conclusiveness, which is something entirely lacking since we are missing Beerus words about fighting a Base Goku who is exerting himself. We know that Goku has perfect control over his ki, if he's not fighting he can bring ki down. Since he's just seen training "lightly" in movie, anime and manga, Goku could be at 20% or 30% for all we know.

There's the flaw in this entire argument. You are saying Goku can't be suppressed and can't agree he may not be stronger than Freeza in his suppressed state.
I may go on with saying the Vegeta argument carries more weight than Beerus' in the Buu Saga, because he has sufficient knowledge about both Piccolo and himself.
You know, there is a thin line between saying a theory is more foolproof than another or, say you are more inclined to believe a theory and just dismissing something debatable as undebatable. You want to take Beerus' word for confirmation that Goku < Freeza? Okidoki, fine, legitimate, but your mileage may vary.

I don't even like the Base > Freeza theory, and I prefer to keep the guys weaker than Freeza. But this whole "thou shall accept Beerus' word on the matter as the Bible. Oh, btw, Vegeta is overestimating himself just because in the Buu Saga, Goku is for sure at 100% when he meets Beerus just because, and Base Gohan is casually weaker than Final Form Freeza even in the Movie Universe just because" is silly.

But let's go deeper, shall we? If you wanted to take Beerus' words at face-value he's implying Super Saiyan Goku may barely be able to beat Freeza ("Oh, I see, you may be able to beat Freeza in that state"), when Super Saiyan Goku can at the very least take on Perfect Cell at that point.

Goku (suppressed, he isn't even fighting; no aura at all) = 1,000,000
Beerus feels Goku's ki: "hey, how come you are far weaker than Freeza?".

Goku (base) = 500,000,000 -> can curbstomp Final Form Freeza better than Gohan, in TOEI's eyes.
Goku (SS) = 25,000,000,000
Beerus: "Oh, I guess you could beat Freeza like that, right?".

Which is just Beerus being uninterested: we know for a fact that Goku is massively stronger than Freeza in SS form by the time of the Cell Saga, so he is just downplaying his strenght anyway. Or maybe Goku is suppressed in his Super Saiyan form anyway and he's barely above Freeza because he doesn't know Beerus strenght at the time the comment takes place.

To me, beerus saying that base goku can't beat freeza is not a solid evidence , but goku AGREEING to beerus' comment is. He will not agree with something false, especially if it is about his power. Beerus also says that super saiyan goku can beat freeza now. Goku still says nothing.

It would be as you say if Beerus had argued "oh, so you can't beat Freeza without transforming like that" and Goku stayed silent.

The point here is that if he's making a reference to how he thinks... or rather, doubts Goku can beat Freeza "in that state" (which could or could not be a suppressed state, just as it could or could refer to his "base form" in general), then, like I said, it's anything but 100% conclusive on the Freeza vs. Base debate.
Simply put, reminder: inferring that "in that state" means necessarily "untransformed" and not "a % of your full power without transforming" is entirely subjective. Although, like I said before, it can amount to a "hint" Goku can't beat Freeza in base. Just like Goku getting excited over a foe who can beat Freeza in one blow is a hint to "base < Freeza" and Vegeta's comment before the Budokai Tenkaichi is a hint that "base > Freeza".

Both theses, anyway, aren't unreasonable. That's more or less the bottom line.

[Bullza]

New episode.

Magetta is obviously stronger than Frost if Vegeta had to reach the full extent of his Super Saiyan power. Assuming that Goku was also holding back the same then it means that a non serious Super Saiyan Goku was still far stronger than Frost.

The preview for the next episode showed Cabba turning into a Super Saiyan and then Vegeta turning into a Super Saiyan Blue. So that might mean that Super Saiyan Cabba is stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta. Though isn't Cabba supposed to win that fight? Perhaps Cabba can become a Super Saiyan God as well?

[LowRyder2005]

My first impression of the preview is:

* Cabba in base is massively stronger than Vegeta.
* He unlocks Super Saiyan for the first time and become *50 stronger.

Vegeta at the end is forced to go Super Saiyan Blue to knock him out because he is outclassed.

[Khin]

If SSj Cabba was at least as strong as Blue Vegeta.Wouldn't SSj2,SSjBlue or SSj3 Cabba be strong as hell ? Not to mention Super Saiyan God Cabba.

[LowRyder2005]

Cabba said he couldn't transform before and had acted like Frost was quite impressive in his Final Form, though. Either he lied about it or he said the truth and he's transforming for the first time against Vegeta.

[Birusu16]

New episode.

Magetta is obviously stronger than Frost if Vegeta had to reach the full extent of his Super Saiyan power. Assuming that Goku was also holding back the same then it means that a non serious Super Saiyan Goku was still far stronger than Frost.

The preview for the next episode showed Cabba turning into a Super Saiyan and then Vegeta turning into a Super Saiyan Blue. So that might mean that Super Saiyan Cabba is stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta. Though isn't Cabba supposed to win that fight? Perhaps Cabba can become a Super Saiyan God as well?

Not exactly sure how it implies that. If they're even then of course Vegeta's going to transform as then he's certain to win.

And no, nothing has suggested Cabba would win this fight. The early episode titles that mentioned Cabba fighting Monaka were wrong.

My first impression of the preview is:

* Cabba in base is massively stronger than Vegeta.
* He unlocks Super Saiyan for the first time and become *50 stronger.

Vegeta at the end is forced to go Super Saiyan Blue to knock him out because he is outclassed.

Based on what? Nothing in the preview substantiates that.

[ZombieVito]

My first impression of the preview is:

* Cabba in base is massively stronger than Vegeta.
* He unlocks Super Saiyan for the first time and become *50 stronger.

Vegeta at the end is forced to go Super Saiyan Blue to knock him out because he is outclassed.

I don't think so. He gives Vegeta trouble judging by the NEP but the difference doesn't look that big.

[Khin]

From the looks of it.It looks like SSj Vegeta will wreck Base Cabba,which will make Vegeta disappointed.And force him to go SSj and wreck him.Which Vegeta is forced to go Blue.If SSj Caba won't one shot Vegeta or if Vegeta would't get obliterated by SSj Cabba's punch,then it pretty much confirmed that SSj Vegeta/Frost etc are god tiers.

[Birusu16]

There doesn't even look to be any difference. It seems to be nigh even, so I'm confused as to where people are getting this assumption that he's massively stronger than Vegeta. No, he's not. The reason he transforms is because Cabba (as a SSJ) can fight on equal terms with him (as a SSJ) and the only way he's going to win is if he transforms.

This is substantiated by the episode summaries released a few weeks ago as well where it's mentioned that base Cabba is able to fight on par with Vegeta (meaning base vs base) and we see a bit of that in the preview. Vegeta then goes SSJ and wrecks him and forces Cabba to finally transform and they're back on equal terms. Then Vegeta tips the scale in his favor once again with SSB.