Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

There was never an indication the multiplier dropped.

[dbzfan7]

I had an interesting thought when I was out. One thing I've seen a lot of people say is that the Super Saiyan multiplier went down as the years went by.

If Vegeta and Cabba were even in base and then Cabba went Super Saiyan for the first time. Then Vegeta turns Super Saiyan and they continue to be about even.

Doesn't that mean that the multiplier never went down and was always 50x?

That'd actually be a good contender of proof that the SSJ multiplier is still the same. Cabba is not a god in any way, so he should get the regular boost. If he fights equal with SSJ Vegeta, that means that the boost may still be the same, and the theory of base states/SSJ not being that special, is more plausible.

[Khin]

We don't know if it was Base Vegeta who fought on par with Base Cabba.But the way this was written,it looks like Base Cabba is equal to SSj Vegeta.

Episode 37

Vegeta's next opponent is the Saiyajin from Universe 6, Cabba. Cabba shows he fights evenly with Vegeta even in base but says he can't transform into a Super Saiyajin.

Notice the word even there.I don't think they would say ''Cabba fought evenly with Base Vegeta even in base''.

[Saiga]

If Vegeta is forced to turn into a Super Saiyan Blue then Cabba is either equal to or stronger than him, that's all.

From the preview it looks like Vegeta fights against Cabba first in their base forms, which looks like it might confirm that Cabba would be weaker than Frost (Third Form Frost at that).

Cabba transforms into a Super Saiyan for the first time during the fight maybe? Which would mean Cabba wasn't lying afterall. The two fight as Super Saiyans before Vegeta goes God mode.

Like someone said though it'll be interesting to see how SSJ measures up to SSJB. If SSJB doesn't stomp him easily then that could put to rest the entire two bases theory if it doesn't already because if that was the case then wouldn't it be enough for Vegeta to just go into his SBG form to win?

You did it. You just disproved the two bases theory.

I don't think so. Because Vegeta is already a Super Saiyan, so by the "two base" theory using his God ki would mean going Super Saiyan Blue now.

To go "Saiyan Beyond God" he'd have to stop being a Super Saiyan and start using the God ki, which is completely unnecessary. If Saiyan Beyond God is really a thing, I don't think it being more powerful than his Super Saiyan form means that he'd just transform into it from Super Saiyan.

It'd be something like

Vegeta >>> Super Saiyan >>> + God ki = Super Saiyan Blue
Vegeta >>> God ki >>> + Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan Blue

[Bullza]

There was never an indication the multiplier dropped.

It's because of the Kili level in the Buu arc. The Daizenshuu and Dabura in the anime (apparently) says a Kili level of 200-300 is enough to destroy 1-2 planets.

Super Saiyan Goku's kili level was 3,000 so in base it'd be 60 and yet he should have no problem destroying a planet

He was also faring pretty well against Yakon whose Kili level is 800.

So I think this is when the idea stemmed from. Nevertheless it's something that's frequently been brought up and what could possibly be put to rest.

To go "Saiyan Beyond God" he'd have to stop being a Super Saiyan and start using the God ki, which is completely unnecessary.

It wouldn't be unnecessary. He'd be getting stronger but he'd still be holding back SSJB. Goku and Vegeta only want to level up to as much as is required to win and that's it.

[ZombieVito]

We don't know if it was Base Vegeta who fought on par with Base Cabba.But the way this was written,it looks like Base Cabba is equal to SSj Vegeta.

Episode 37

Vegeta's next opponent is the Saiyajin from Universe 6, Cabba. Cabba shows he fights evenly with Vegeta even in base but says he can't transform into a Super Saiyajin.

Notice the word even there.I don't think they would say ''Cabba fought evenly with Base Vegeta even in base''.

But of that's true then Cabba should one shot Vegeta after turning SSJ.

There was never an indication the multiplier dropped.

It's because of the Kili level in the Buu arc. The Daizenshuu and Dabura in the anime (apparently) says a Kili level of 200-300 is enough to destroy 1-2 planets.

Super Saiyan Goku's kili level was 3,000 so in base it'd be 60 and yet he should have no problem destroying a planet

He was also faring pretty well against Yakon whose Kili level is 800.

So I think this is when the idea stemmed from. Nevertheless it's something that's frequently been brought up and what could possibly be put to rest

An easy way to explain that is to say Goku was suppressed in SSJ.

[apex_pretador]

There was never an indication the multiplier dropped.

It's because of the Kili level in the Buu arc. The Daizenshuu and Dabura in the anime (apparently) says a Kili level of 200-300 is enough to destroy 1-2 planets.

Super Saiyan Goku's kili level was 3,000 so in base it'd be 60 and yet he should have no problem destroying a planet

He was also faring pretty well against Yakon whose Kili level is 800.

So I think this is when the idea stemmed from. Nevertheless it's something that's frequently been brought up and what could possibly be put to rest.

To go "Saiyan Beyond God" he'd have to stop being a Super Saiyan and start using the God ki, which is completely unnecessary.

It wouldn't be unnecessary. He'd be getting stronger but he'd still be holding back SSJB. Goku and Vegeta only want to level up to as much as is required to win and that's it.

Kili indicates energy not power.
Nothing states that super saiyan can output 50x more "energy" than base. However, super saiyan form can output the energy faster than base, so higher power (rate of outputting energy)

[Bullza]

Well it does seem to be that way anyway, when his Kili level was measured he'd only just turned SSJ. After that was when he powered up to make Yakon explode.

You'd also have to say Yakon was probably suppressed too though.

That does make me wonder about what happened in this episode.

There seemed to be a significant difference between SSJ Vegeta's power at the start and end of this fight. Would the low end SSJ power still be 50x base?

Would the low end SSJ Goku who dominated Frost be transforming from a low end base Goku? And if Goku got really serious and then went SSJ he'd be like what Vegeta was when he beat Magetta?

[Khin]

The reason why Goku went Super Saiyan against Yakon is to light the place.So he don't need to access his full power at that time.After mastering the Super Saiyan form,we can see that Goku have full control of the form and can treat it like his base form.A good example of this was when he showed Karin his 50% Power.So Super Saiyan Goku having 3,000 while Yakon had 800 doesn't mean Goku's only about twice and a half stronger than the dumb monster.

You could say Yakon is stronger than Base Goku and he need Super Saiyan to win against him.But a 250% is more than enough for Goku to trump him.So he don't need his full power.

[Saiga]

To go "Saiyan Beyond God" he'd have to stop being a Super Saiyan and start using the God ki, which is completely unnecessary.

It wouldn't be unnecessary. He'd be getting stronger but he'd still be holding back SSJB. Goku and Vegeta only want to level up to as much as is required to win and that's it.

Until we see the episode, we don't know why he's using Super Saiyan Blue or if he's still in the mentality of holding back. Switching on his God ki when he's already Super Saiyan just seems like the simplest method for powering up here.

At the very least, it definitely does not "disprove" the two base theory because I just pointed out a simple reason why he would use Super Saiyan Blue.

[Bullza]

Looks like we can forget about the possibility of Vegeta turning SSJB for Hit. He definitely turns SSJB during his fight with Cabba.

[ZombieVito]

At the very least, it definitely does not "disprove" the two base theory because I just pointed out a simple reason why he would use Super Saiyan Blue.

Why not turn SBG and one shot Cabba then? Him turning to SSB pretty much kills the theory.

[dbgtFO]

Why not turn SBG and one shot Cabba then? Him turning to SSB pretty much kills the theory.

He already addressed this:

Switching on his God ki when he's already Super Saiyan just seems like the simplest method for powering up here.

In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing Champa and Vados' reactions to SSGSS.
They better be completely surprised that any U7 fighter has power that close to the GoDs.

Anyways I'm still not sure where Magetta lies exactly. Vados stated in the manga that Frost was their strongest hand to hand fighter(or was the line more ambigious in japanese?) and while Magetta did power up and trouble base Vegeta, I think it's fair to say, that it's his lava spit that makes up for the difference in power against Super Saiyan Vegeta, rather than his power on its own, like Piccolo vs Frost, so perhaps this?

SSGSS Goku/Vegeta
Magetta(Lava spit).
SS Goku/Vegeta > SS Cabba.
Piccolo(Makankossappo).
Final Form Frost.
Magetta.
Base Goku/Vegeta > Base Cabba.
Assault Form Frost.
Piccolo.
First Form Frost.
Botamo.

I don't know where to put Assault Form Frost either. He seemed to have the upperhand on base Goku, but then Goku easily brushes it off, stating that he's a slow starter and what not, so perhaps Goku had yet to do his best in base and just turned SS to give Frost extra incentive to transform

[Khin]

Magetta's lava spit is still his own power.It's not like it's a weapon or something.It's like his own version of Ki blast.He completely brushed off everything Base Vegeta threw at him.And Vegeta was avoiding from getting a close combat to him until he threw that lava thing.Forcing Vegeta to go Super Saiyan.Considering Magetta was having the upper hand until Vegeta insults him.I would say he's slightly stronger than the SSj Duo.

[dbgtFO]

Magetta's lava spit is still his own power.It's not like it's a weapon or something.It's like his own version of Ki blast.He completely brushed off everything Base Vegeta threw at him.And Vegeta was avoiding from getting a close combat to him until he threw that lava thing.Forcing Vegeta to go Super Saiyan.Considering Magetta was having the upper hand until Vegeta insults him.I would say he's slightly stronger than the SSj Duo.

I don't think you're really disagreeing with me. List above seems in line with your thoughts ie. Magetta above base Saiyans, Lava spit(his version of ki blasts) above Super Saiyans, like Makankossapo being above Frost.

[Khin]

Magetta's lava spit is still his own power.It's not like it's a weapon or something.It's like his own version of Ki blast.He completely brushed off everything Base Vegeta threw at him.And Vegeta was avoiding from getting a close combat to him until he threw that lava thing.Forcing Vegeta to go Super Saiyan.Considering Magetta was having the upper hand until Vegeta insults him.I would say he's slightly stronger than the SSj Duo.

I don't think you're really disagreeing with me. List above seems in line with your thoughts ie. Magetta above base Saiyans, Lava spit(his version of ki blasts) above Super Saiyans, like Makankossapo being above Frost.

Who said i'm disagreeing with you ? I just pointed my thoughts on how strong Magetta is.That's the point why i didn't quote your post in the first place.

For now i think

Botamo < Frost [First Form] < Piccolo =< Base Goku and Vegeta = Frost [Assault Form] < Frost [Final Form] < SSj Goku and Vegeta = Piccolo's Makankossapo =< Magetta

[dbgtFO]

Magetta's lava spit is still his own power.It's not like it's a weapon or something.It's like his own version of Ki blast.He completely brushed off everything Base Vegeta threw at him.And Vegeta was avoiding from getting a close combat to him until he threw that lava thing.Forcing Vegeta to go Super Saiyan.Considering Magetta was having the upper hand until Vegeta insults him.I would say he's slightly stronger than the SSj Duo.

I don't think you're really disagreeing with me. List above seems in line with your thoughts ie. Magetta above base Saiyans, Lava spit(his version of ki blasts) above Super Saiyans, like Makankossapo being above Frost.

Who said i'm disagreeing with you ? I just pointed my thoughts on how strong Magetta is.That's the point why i didn't quote your post in the first place.

Okay, but your post just read like a response to my comment about Magetta not matching SS Vegeta with his power on its own, when you started off with: "Magetta's lava spit is still his own power. It's not like it's a weapon or something. It's like his own version of Ki blast."
Some people don't bother quoting, when the one they are responding is the post right above them after all, so I thought this was one of those cases

[Khin]

Okay, but your post just read like a response to my comment about Magetta not matching SS Vegeta with his power on its own, when you started off with: "Magetta's lava spit is still his own power. It's not like it's a weapon or something. It's like his own version of Ki blast."
Some people don't bother quoting, when the one they are responding is the post right above them after all, so I thought this was one of those cases

I noticed the part where you weren't sure where Magetta lies in the tiers.So give my thoughts about him.But why would you put the magma above the SSj's ? Vegeta brushed it off with his aura.The only problem with it is the temperature.

[buutenks]

So either base/ssj isnt anything special or all u6 fighters r god tiers(except for botamo).I believe the first one is more accurate.

I guess we will find out next ep.

But, we did see cabe's eyes ignite with energy after he was a ssj. So perhaps he gets a rage boost that enables him to fight ssgss vegeta?Or that is simply him raging after he goes ssj and starts attacking ssj vegeta?

Well anyways:

I myself think that base and ssj isnt anything special and goku and vegeta needs to go ssgss to tap in that god power which puts them close to beerus.

Goku even says to vegeta that if he had fought seriously(aka ssj blue) hed easily win the match.

This seems to indicate that ssj blue is in a whole different world from ssj.

[Sora Saiyan]

Okay, but your post just read like a response to my comment about Magetta not matching SS Vegeta with his power on its own, when you started off with: "Magetta's lava spit is still his own power. It's not like it's a weapon or something. It's like his own version of Ki blast."
Some people don't bother quoting, when the one they are responding is the post right above them after all, so I thought this was one of those cases

I noticed the part where you weren't sure where Magetta lies in the tiers.So give my thoughts about him.But why would you put the magma above the SSj's ? Vegeta brushed it off with his aura.The only problem with it is the temperature.

Vegeta did also chop through the lava spit if I'm not mistaken.