Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I highly doubt he was referring to Super Saiyan. He thought Goku was stronger than Buu, he was confident regardless that he could beat him, he fought against him, Goku had the upper hand and Frieza said he was stronger than he thought.

That seems simple and straightforward. Why would he be referring to Super Saiyan when he never used it? And how would he know how strong it was?

Before the two started fighting Frieza expected and was willing to fight Goku as a Super Saiyan anyway.

Freeza knew Goku was stronger than Boo and was expecting Goku to use Super Saiyan against his final form, but those things don't automatically imply Freeza's final form is stronger than Boo.

Freeza thought he could easily trash a normal Saiyan, giving what he did to Super Saiyan Gohan moments before. Goku's performance in that form was very unexpected. Also, Freeza knows how much power a Super Saiyan transformation gives, since he fought three Saiyans previously that could transform. Finally, Freeza was confident in taking Super Saiyan God level Goku, even after matching his normal Saiyan form. There is quite a jump in power between his final and golden forms.

Then, Freeza's final form being weaker than Boo can be justified.

[dbzfan7]

Agreed. I'd prefer if the transformations were what had the insane power jumps, rather than insane base jumps with tiny multipliers. It'd make Freeza and Vegeta's gains less stupid.

That's clearly not how it works if First form freeza can beat super saiyan gohan which is at least semi perfect cell.

I said less stupid, not that they wouldn't still be dumb. Freeza still made big dumb gains, but Freeza final form doesn't have to be god tier. It could be around SSJ3 level while his Golden form is the giant boost.

[Overlord78]

Agreed. I'd prefer if the transformations were what had the insane power jumps, rather than insane base jumps with tiny multipliers. It'd make Freeza and Vegeta's gains less stupid.

That's clearly not how it works if First form freeza can beat super saiyan gohan which is at least semi perfect cell.

I said less stupid, not that they wouldn't still be dumb. Freeza still made big dumb gains, but Freeza final form doesn't have to be god tier. It could be around SSJ3 level while his Golden form is the giant boost.

I doubt his final form would be around SSJ3 level. SSJ3's power is x8 from SSJ1 whereas Final Form Freeza is x226 from his first form if we use the official power levels from the Namek Saga. First form Freeza easily beat SSJ Gohan who was stronger than Piccolo so his final form should be much higher than SSJ3. Overall the one thing I get from this is Freeza's power jump is stupid and ROF was a mistake.

[dbzfan7]

I doubt his final form would be around SSJ3 level. SSJ3's power is x8 from SSJ1 whereas Final Form Freeza is x226 from his first form if we use the official power levels from the Namek Saga. First form Freeza easily beat SSJ Gohan who was stronger than Piccolo so his final form should be much higher than SSJ3. Overall the one thing I get from this is Freeza's power jump is stupid and ROF was a mistake.

I take it it's not that big as he no longer needs 3 forms to restrain his power. So he only uses 2, and a transformation.

[buutenks]

That would also work, however vegeta was clearly giving his all. If he could just use god ki and infuse his base with it, he would have easily defeated magetta.

So, perhaps goku and vegeta to get to the god realm of power must go ssj blue.

So, this means that base and ssj are much much more weaker than ssj blue.

This is also backed up by whis stating that goku and vegeta's base form are way below the realm of the gods.

This will also explain how Oob can fight with base Goku later on. My only gripe is that this will make final form Freeza not that big of a deal.

It can't be right since Base/SS Goku fought evenly against 70% Beerus after SSG wore off. He can use god ki without SSGSS.

That got changed when whis compared base goku and vegeta to beerus. He said that goku and vegeta's base are comparable to a tree while beerus the castle.

Plus in Rof arc krillin comments that goku's ki has gotten much more powerful then when he fought beerus. Ofc the moment everyone sensed goku's ki they thought he is a goner, because they couldnt feel the god power burning inside goku, they just felt his regular ssj1 ki level.

So based on that and freeza saying he can defeat goku even after hearing that goku defeated majin buu, base goku and ff freeza should be at ssj3 tier and ssgss placing them at god level.

Also about freeza's transformations, i see no reason to place the same multiplier from namek saga.Most likely freeza can control his power much much better so he doesnt need to reduce his PL by so much anymore.

[ZombieVito]

Let see how this goes.

Spoiler:

Goku/Vegeta: 14,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 7,000,000,000,000

Freeza: 7,000,000,000
-- Final from: 14,000,000,000
-- Golden form: 8,000,000,000,000

Gohan: 100,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 5,000,000,000
-- Signal beam: 100,000,000,000

Gotenks: 200,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 10,000,000,000

Ginyu: 3,600,000,000
Tagoma: 2,700,000,000

Piccolo: 2,000,000,000
-- Weighted: 1,800,000,000

Spoiler:

Goku/Vegeta: 17,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 850,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,500,000,000,000

Magetta: 70,000,000,000
-- Lava power: 700,000,000,000

Frost: 3,000,000,000
-- Assault form: 15,000,000,000
-- Final form: 53,000,000,000
-- Weakened: 27,000,000,000

Piccolo: 8,000,000,000
-- Makankosappo: 50,000,000,000

Majin Boo: 20,000,000,000
Botamo: 2,000,000,000

Spoiler:

Goku: 30,000,000,000
Oob: 30,000,000,000

Comments?

[Bullza]

Yeah, but how is Cold supposed to know Buu's strenght if not for the legends behind Buu and nothing else?

Well that is something, King Cold or Frieza shouldn't know how strong Buu was. They probably knew how he destroyed hundreds of planets within a few years but that's about it.

I still think the dialogue was meant to just to tell the audience that Frieza was going to get stronger than the Goku who defeated Buu and that's it.

If Frieza didn't have a clue how strong Buu was (and she shouldn't) then it seems odd that he'd say Goku had grown even stronger than he thought after being told that he'd beaten Buu but that with training he'd still beat him.

If he was already stronger than Buu he should've probably rushed the moment he had reached that plateau in his Final Form. Right? Why bother reaching another realm of strenght if he was hellbent on getting his revenge as soon as possible? But we know for a fact that he won't rush to Earth in his Final Form, the Golden Form is the last thing he unlocks and then he immediately moves to Earth.

Well he said he was going to train for 4 months in order to unlock his latent ability, his potential. It wouldn't have made sense for him to just stop before achieving that, he was trying to get as strong as he believed he could get.

Even if he knew he was stronger than Buu he wouldn't know how much stronger Goku was than Buu so wouldn't have rushed to Earth just from surpassing Buu.

[Sora Saiyan]

I think I'm gonna drop Freeza to 2-3x SSJ3 Goku, I'm sure he was going to arrive with plenty enough strength to defeat Goku. Of course Freeza shouldn't know Buu's strength, but I'm just gonna say Toriyama put that in there to show us Freezas going to surpass that level.

SSJ3 Goku (Buu arc) - 1
True Form Freeza - 2-3
Base Goku (post God) - 2-3
Piccolo (Champa) - 1-3
SSJ Goku (post God) - 100-150
SSJB Goku - I'm thinking 50x SSJ. Sort of like a SSJ going SSJ. This one is truly a work in progress.

[Bullza]

Then, Freeza's final form being weaker than Boo can be justified.

But there are other things as well. Beerus when he was still using less than 10% of his power finger flicked SSJ3 Goku and knocked him across the planet, he finger flicked Gotenks and beat him, smacked SSJ Gotenks bum and knocked him out of Super Saiyan.

Then later on Beerus catches Goku with his tail and Vegeta takes a foot to the face when they were changing his sheets and they arent nearly a hurt despite Vegeta saying he doesn't hold back when he's asleep.

They do 50,000 push ups on their thumbs in a suit that puts the Gravity Machine to shame which was what Vegeta used previously as a Super Saiyan.

Base Goku and Vegeta arguably did better against Whis than SSJ3 Goku did against Beerus.

There's also how much stronger Gohan actually was as a Super Saiyan in RoF. He's surely far stronger than any Super Saiyan seen prior. Whereas SSJ Goku gets 50x stronger from being weaker than Frieza (Namek saga), SSJ Gohan is getting 50x stronger from being stronger than Piccolo whose far stronger than Frieza.

So SSJ Gohan (RoF) could well be stronger than SSJ2 Goku (Buu saga). An argument could even be made that Frieza in his first form is stronger than Buu and there's supposed to be an enormous difference between his first and final forms.

[Sora Saiyan]

Then, Freeza's final form being weaker than Boo can be justified.

But there are other things as well. Beerus when he was still using less than 10% of his power finger flicked SSJ3 Goku and knocked him across the planet, he finger flicked Gotenks and beat him, smacked SSJ Gotenks bum and knocked him out of Super Saiyan.

Then later on Beerus catches Goku with his tail and Vegeta takes a foot to the face when they were changing his sheets and they arent nearly a hurt despite Vegeta saying he doesn't hold back when he's asleep.

They do 50,000 push ups on their thumbs in a suit that puts the Gravity Machine to shame which was what Vegeta used previously as a Super Saiyan.

Base Goku and Vegeta arguably did better against Whis than SSJ3 Goku did against Beerus.

There's also how much stronger Gohan actually was as a Super Saiyan in RoF. He's surely far stronger than any Super Saiyan seen prior. Whereas SSJ Goku gets 50x stronger from being weaker than Frieza (Namek saga), SSJ Gohan is getting 50x stronger from being stronger than Piccolo whose far stronger than Frieza.

So SSJ Gohan (RoF) could well be stronger than SSJ2 Goku (Buu saga). An argument could even be made that Frieza in his first form is stronger than Buu and there's supposed to be an enormous difference between his first and final forms.

There are plenty of signs that point to Freeza being much stronger than Boo IMO, but I can't see Piccolo being that much stronger than Buu for no reason. He's the one that holds Freeza and the base Saiyans back. The only way it could really work is with the two different base powers theory, but I'd need official confirmation before believing that.

Pretty much everything you've pointed out does point to the base Saiyans being much stronger than Buu.

[LowRyder2005]

There's also how much stronger Gohan actually was as a Super Saiyan in RoF. He's surely far stronger than any Super Saiyan seen prior. Whereas SSJ Goku gets 50x stronger from being weaker than Frieza (Namek saga), SSJ Gohan is getting 50x stronger from being stronger than Piccolo whose far stronger than Frieza.

I wouldn't say "surely". On the contrary, there is semi-conclusive evidence that Gohan is not that strong. At most he could be slightly stronger than his pre-Z sword incarnation. Enough to beat an opponent around Perfect Cell's tier, but inferior to First Form Freeza.

Well, you could even make some arguments in favor of Piccolo, like it was said before, if you wanted to nitpick:
* Piccolo was wearing its weighted clothing when he attacked Tagoma.
* Piccolo could have simply been too tired because he had to fight more soldiers, or a combination of fighting more soldiers with its clothing.

In other words, we don't really see Piccolo fighting at 100%. And it's not like Base Gohan does that much better than him anyway, at least to me.

Then there is the Mr. Buu issue: everyone felt more secure by having Mr. Buu with them and they didn't think Gohan would give them a sure victory against Freeza. Krillin, in fact, said that by having Buu on their side "they'd be fine even if Goku and Vegeta weren't there". They had all seen Gohan fighting as Chou and turning Super Saiyan in BOG so they knew he could use at least the latter form (or maybe Super Saiyan 2... at least I wouldn't go as far as to say they thought he couldn't even turn Super Saiyan anymore), and it still didn't make him preferable to Buu in their eyes.

Now, since Gohan hasn't been training, he already can't be stronger than his BOG incarnation, Chou or Super Saiyan. Therefore, you can only have BOG Gohan > Mr. Buu > ROF Gohan. Super Saiyan Gohan from ROF is weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan from BOG, although it's not sure by how much.

[Hugo Boss]

Then, Freeza's final form being weaker than Boo can be justified.

But there are other things as well.

These points in contrary could justify Freeza's final form being stronger than Boo, but they are not supposed to be proof that it's definetely the case either.

As a matter of fact, everything that involves Goku and Vegeta training in Beerus' planet is treated as a miracle by the Oracle Fish. Vegeta has withstood Beerus' attacks since he arrived, when he was still weaker than Goku.

Actually, it's very rare to see Goku and Vegeta training as Super Saiyans in DBS. For example, Vegeta used 150G to train in normal form.

Gohan's power was below Boo's when they fought Beerus and he was much weaker when he fought Freeza, so it's very difficult to use this as evidence.

[apex_pretador]

I doubt his final form would be around SSJ3 level. SSJ3's power is x8 from SSJ1 whereas Final Form Freeza is x226 from his first form if we use the official power levels from the Namek Saga. First form Freeza easily beat SSJ Gohan who was stronger than Piccolo so his final form should be much higher than SSJ3. Overall the one thing I get from this is Freeza's power jump is stupid and ROF was a mistake.

I take it it's not that big as he no longer needs 3 forms to restrain his power. So he only uses 2, and a transformation.

He said He is going to "jump directly" to his final form against goku, because he didn't want to repeat the mistake he made at namek.

[Sora Saiyan]

Gohan's power was below Boo's when they fought Beerus and he was much weaker when he fought Freeza, so it's very difficult to use this as evidence.

Gohan was below Buu? When was that confirmed?

[Speedster]

Here is something that is probably of importance. In episode 22, at minute 3-4, Gohan says that he is sure that Tagoma is hiding power comparable to what he had at his best. To which Piccolo exclaims: "What?!" (in the sense "What!? You must be kidding us! if so we are 1000% screwed")

Gohan: "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I have when at my best."
Piccolo: What?!

Of course Gohan doesn't tell if he really means his ultimate form or just the best he reached in normal state as per post Z sword training. Of course Gohan may had been mistaken too. But it is safe to say that the intention at least is that he meant his ultimate form. The problem with this is that it would mean as SSJ he got even stronger than ultimate despite declining. That makes little sense. Also if he really was able to go SSJ on top of his ultimate form (or partially ultimate form) he would have done it against Buutenks too - after all he was stronger back then.

[Hugo Boss]

Gohan's power was below Boo's when they fought Beerus and he was much weaker when he fought Freeza, so it's very difficult to use this as evidence.

Gohan was below Buu? When was that confirmed?

When they were choosing the fighters who would compose U7 team. They wondered first to bring the Boos' duo, but discarded Oob due to his age. Then, Gohan was overlooked until Piccolo was brought up as an option.

[Sora Saiyan]

Gohan's power was below Boo's when they fought Beerus and he was much weaker when he fought Freeza, so it's very difficult to use this as evidence.

Gohan was below Buu? When was that confirmed?

When they were choosing the fighters who would compose U7 team. They wondered first to bring the Boos' duo, but discarded Oob due to his age. Then, Gohan was overlooked until Piccolo was brought up as an option.

Oh, I thought you meant in the Beerus arc Gohan was weaker than Buu.
Gohans a difficult one to place, he's clearly plenty above Piccolo, but where he is in comparison to Buu is quite a question mark but if RoF arc base Gohan is equal to even 50% Piccolo with the SSJ boost he would be plenty stronger than Buu. I only have Mr Buu around Majin Vegeta. As Vegeta said Gohan has the most potential so it was clearly a bone head move to think of Buu and Uub ahead of him.

[TheMikado]

That got changed when whis compared base goku and vegeta to beerus. He said that goku and vegeta's base are comparable to a tree while beerus the castle.

Plus in Rof arc krillin comments that goku's ki has gotten much more powerful then when he fought beerus. Ofc the moment everyone sensed goku's ki they thought he is a goner, because they couldnt feel the god power burning inside goku, they just felt his regular ssj1 ki level.

So based on that and freeza saying he can defeat goku even after hearing that goku defeated majin buu, base goku and ff freeza should be at ssj3 tier and ssgss placing them at god level.

Also about freeza's transformations, i see no reason to place the same multiplier from namek saga.Most likely freeza can control his power much much better so he doesnt need to reduce his PL by so much anymore.

How is having lore established repeatedly through multiple media and the reenforced by the creators with the 6-10-15 comments recanted in the VERY NEXT arc of the same series considered acceptable storytelling? With SSJ Goku is a 6 on the God scale or he isn't. These fluctuating power levels for convenience are the worse considering the magnitude of them.

Furthermore the consistency of Frieza and Frost in forms and the forms Goku transforms between implies at least some of the multipliers are still intact. Frieza's race multipliers and Saiyan SSJ multipliers. There's no evidence outside of SSB having a tiny tiny multiplier that SSJ multipliers do not still exist.

[buutenks]

That got changed when whis compared base goku and vegeta to beerus. He said that goku and vegeta's base are comparable to a tree while beerus the castle.

Plus in Rof arc krillin comments that goku's ki has gotten much more powerful then when he fought beerus. Ofc the moment everyone sensed goku's ki they thought he is a goner, because they couldnt feel the god power burning inside goku, they just felt his regular ssj1 ki level.

So based on that and freeza saying he can defeat goku even after hearing that goku defeated majin buu, base goku and ff freeza should be at ssj3 tier and ssgss placing them at god level.

Also about freeza's transformations, i see no reason to place the same multiplier from namek saga.Most likely freeza can control his power much much better so he doesnt need to reduce his PL by so much anymore.

How is having lore established repeatedly through multiple media and the reenforced by the creators with the 6-10-15 comments recanted in the VERY NEXT arc of the same series considered acceptable storytelling? With SSJ Goku is a 6 on the God scale or he isn't. These fluctuating power levels for convenience are the worse considering the magnitude of them.

Furthermore the consistency of Frieza and Frost in forms and the forms Goku transforms between implies at least some of the multipliers are still intact. Frieza's race multipliers and Saiyan SSJ multipliers. There's no evidence outside of SSB having a tiny tiny multiplier that SSJ multipliers do not still exist.

Dont understand what do you mean?

[dbzfan7]

I doubt his final form would be around SSJ3 level. SSJ3's power is x8 from SSJ1 whereas Final Form Freeza is x226 from his first form if we use the official power levels from the Namek Saga. First form Freeza easily beat SSJ Gohan who was stronger than Piccolo so his final form should be much higher than SSJ3. Overall the one thing I get from this is Freeza's power jump is stupid and ROF was a mistake.

I take it it's not that big as he no longer needs 3 forms to restrain his power. So he only uses 2, and a transformation.

He said He is going to "jump directly" to his final form against goku, because he didn't want to repeat the mistake he made at namek.

That's true, but Freeza created his forms and their restrictions. He very easily could have changed those restrictions. As I said there really isn't any rules since Super doesn't explain shit. So really anyone can say or make up whatever the hell they want.