Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Buutenks^ In BOG Goku fought Beerus as a SSJ around his same power level of 6 or 60% of Beerus. While Beerus fought at 70%.
This was after Goku absorbed God Ki and the SSG form expired so Goku's new regular SSJ is around 50-60% of Beerus full power. In ROF he fought Goku who's base through association like Freeza being able to take on Boo are said to be around SSJ3 levels. Final form Freeza fought base Goku so he's around that strong in final form.

In Chanpa Goku fought assault form Frost and dominated just like Goku would have in the DBZ Frieza arc against Freeza. Remember Freeza went Final form which made Goku go SSJ to win and over when him. Same with Frost vs Goku, implying the multiplers for those races are still the same unless they were both magically reduced by the exact same amount.

Furthermore we know Base Goku is at least as stronger as SSJ3 but got SSJ x50 to take on Final form.. Which Piccolo in turn fights well against. For Piccolo to not ever be at ssj3/Buu levels then suddenly do well against an opponent around x50 that is really really inconsistent.

More importantly this implies Frost, Piccolo are around 50% of God Beerus power level based on SSJ Gokus power level and interaction.

[buutenks]

Buutenks^ In BOG Goku fought Beerus as a SSJ around his same power level of 6 or 60% of Beerus. While Beerus fought at 70%.
This was after Goku absorbed God Ki and the SSG form expired so Goku's new regular SSJ is around 50-60% of Beerus full power. In ROF he fought Goku who's base through association like Freeza being able to take on Boo are said to be around SSJ3 levels. Final form Freeza fought base Goku so he's around that strong in final form.

In Chanpa Goku fought assault form Frost and dominated just like Goku would have in the DBZ Frieza arc against Freeza. Remember Freeza went Final form which made Goku go SSJ to win and over when him. Same with Frost vs Goku, implying the multiplers for those races are still the same unless they were both magically reduced by the exact same amount.

Furthermore we know Base Goku is at least as stronger as SSJ3 but got SSJ x50 to take on Final form.. Which Piccolo in turn fights well against. For Piccolo to not ever be at ssj3/Buu levels then suddenly do well against an opponent around x50 that is really really inconsistent.

More importantly this implies Frost, Piccolo are around 50% of God Beerus power level based on SSJ Gokus power level and interaction.

Why is final form frost 50x?He got his butt kicked by a ssj goku who was holding back a ton.

At best he is 2-3x base goku, so since he got weakened means he proly dropped to at base goku's level. So piccolo being able to keep up and all means he is close to ssj3 tier.

or all u6 fighters and this means also piccolo r god tiers.

Id say piccolo being close to ssj3 tier makes more sense than him being god tier for no reason.

on top of that, goku did say he is a slow starter and assault form frost wasnt able to actually harm goku, so most likely goku was still more powerful than assault form frost but simply went ssj to show frost that he also has a transformation so frost shouldnt hold back.

And also, none of the current u6 fighters that fought showed they r god tier, so i see no reason to place frost or maggeta or even cabe9atm) at god tier. And this also means piccolo.

Also whis stated that base saiyans r vastly inferior to beerus,so the 60% thing cannot be true.

[Bullza]

It's possible if Goku was fully powered up and serious he could possibly be stronger than Third Form Frost.

He may have even given Final Form Frost a good go if he did the same thing that Piccolo did.

[Khin]

If we take the Goku/Beerus destroying the universe or whatever into account.Then Base Goku shouldn't be SSj3 tier unless the multiplier with the new SSj forms are gazillion times.

It really just shows how fucked up the powerscaling are.We need explanation to solve this thing.

[apex_pretador]

I take it it's not that big as he no longer needs 3 forms to restrain his power. So he only uses 2, and a transformation.

He said He is going to "jump directly" to his final form against goku, because he didn't want to repeat the mistake he made at namek.

That's true, but Freeza created his forms and their restrictions. He very easily could have changed those restrictions. As I said there really isn't any rules since Super doesn't explain shit. So really anyone can say or make up whatever the hell they want.

Freeza didn't create his forms.
If you believe he did, show me a quote from manga or even anime, and we see the same thing for frost like freeza.

Saying that he'll "jump directly" to his final form indicates that something is in between, just like pui - pui & Yakon had some fighters in between "Already Yakon?"

[apex_pretador]

If we take the Goku/Beerus destroying the universe or whatever into account.Then Base Goku shouldn't be SSj3 tier unless the multiplier with the new SSj forms are gazillion times.

It really just shows how fucked up the powerscaling are.We need explanation to solve this thing.

TBH, the power levels don't scale linearly with the destructive capacity.
Master roshi blew up the moon in 21st TB arc, when he had a power level MUCH lower than suppressed old daimao, and was implied to be useless against old daimao even at 22nd TB, which puts his PL around 100-150 at best (180 by guidebooks).
Do you really think that BoDB goku could destroy even 5% or 10% of moon with a kamehameha? or even Tao (human) could destroy a big portion of moon with a dodonpa?
SPC claimed to be able to destroy solar system, which needs trillions of times the energy required to destroy the earth. His power level is definitely not even trillion times BoDB goku.

also, this is my opinion:

Spoiler:

Going by theory, I think that in battle of gods against beerus, goku was getting boosted by the power of SSG from inside, which he fully absorbed, and that's why as a SS, he was able to fight him well. Him punching away the energy ball was also a result of that power spiking up at the desperate moment. After the fight, when goku calmed down, the power faded away, but he was still massively stronger due to the ritual. When he went to whis, he found that vegeta was even stronger than him, but not necessarily stronger than he was against beerus.

However, after goku arrived, they both grew their base power at a much quicker rate than before, and powered up massively.

Now the numbers:

Piccolo - 10 (weighted)
Buu arc SS gohan - 11

Tagoma - 15
Ginyu tagoma - 18
SS gohan - 25 (atleast) ~ = buu (fat)

First form freeza - 35 ~= SS gotenks post
Second form freeza - 70 ~= super buu
Third form freeza- 100 ~= Mystic gohan
Final form freeza - 150 ~= buutenks / buuhan
Golden - 30,000

Base goku - 160
Base vegeta - 160
Buuhan - 160

Vegetto - 1000

SS goku / vegeta - 8000
SSG goku - 20,000
SSB - 25,000

-------------in U 6 arc, this becomes----------------
Goku / vegeta - 170
SS - 1700 (suppressed), 8500 (full power)

Botamo - 20 ~= M Vegeta
Frost - 50 ~= Kid buu
Assault form = 170 ~= buuhan
Final form = 280 , 200 (tired) , 180 (more tired)
Piccolo = 30 ~= Fat buu
Makankosappo = 350

Cabba = 150 (Maybe)??
Magatta = 130 (Maybe)??

[dbzfan7]

That's true, but Freeza created his forms and their restrictions. He very easily could have changed those restrictions. As I said there really isn't any rules since Super doesn't explain shit. So really anyone can say or make up whatever the hell they want.

Freeza didn't create his forms.
If you believe he did, show me a quote from manga or even anime, and we see the same thing for frost like freeza.

Saying that he'll "jump directly" to his final form indicates that something is in between, just like pui - pui & Yakon had some fighters in between "Already Yakon?"

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P1.3-4
Vegeta: “Among aliens, there are sometimes guys who change their appearance as the need arises…For things like camouflage, or to not deplete their energy…”
Freeza: “In my case it’s different…It’s because my power is too excessive, so that even I can’t properly control it…”

That's what the lower forms are for. They're his restrictions, while his white look is his true state. Just like how he basically made his Golden form gold, because he could choose how to mold it. He basically created limiters. So he could control how much power he limited himself with. Now that he has better control, he doesn't really need as many forms. Zarbon did basically the same thing, but more to hide his hideousness.

I find that more believable than SSJ/God is now like a 2x multiplier or less. Also works well with the whole Goku and Vegeta being tiny while Beerus represents the castle.

[apex_pretador]

That's true, but Freeza created his forms and their restrictions. He very easily could have changed those restrictions. As I said there really isn't any rules since Super doesn't explain shit. So really anyone can say or make up whatever the hell they want.

Freeza didn't create his forms.
If you believe he did, show me a quote from manga or even anime, and we see the same thing for frost like freeza.

Saying that he'll "jump directly" to his final form indicates that something is in between, just like pui - pui & Yakon had some fighters in between "Already Yakon?"

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P1.3-4
Vegeta: “Among aliens, there are sometimes guys who change their appearance as the need arises…For things like camouflage, or to not deplete their energy…”
Freeza: “In my case it’s different…It’s because my power is too excessive, so that even I can’t properly control it…”

That's what the lower forms are for. They're his restrictions, while his white look is his true state. Just like how he basically made his Golden form gold, because he could choose how to mold it. He basically created limiters. So he could control how much power he limited himself with. Now that he has better control, he doesn't really need as many forms. Zarbon did basically the same thing, but more to hide his hideousness.

I find that more believable than SSJ/God is now like a 2x multiplier or less. Also works well with the whole Goku and Vegeta being tiny while Beerus represents the castle.

Nothing to suggest that he "created" his forms.
Also, still doesn't explain^^^ highlighted text

[dbzfan7]

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P1.3-4
Vegeta: “Among aliens, there are sometimes guys who change their appearance as the need arises…For things like camouflage, or to not deplete their energy…”
Freeza: “In my case it’s different…It’s because my power is too excessive, so that even I can’t properly control it…”

That's what the lower forms are for. They're his restrictions, while his white look is his true state. Just like how he basically made his Golden form gold, because he could choose how to mold it. He basically created limiters. So he could control how much power he limited himself with. Now that he has better control, he doesn't really need as many forms. Zarbon did basically the same thing, but more to hide his hideousness.

I find that more believable than SSJ/God is now like a 2x multiplier or less. Also works well with the whole Goku and Vegeta being tiny while Beerus represents the castle.

Nothing to suggest that he "created" his forms.
Also, still doesn't explain^^^ highlighted text

They can change their appearance when the need arises. It's not something he just automatically has. These are metamorphosis. Just like how he had to develop a further Golden form, he had to develop lesser restriction forms. Also him jumping directly into final form can easily be interpreted as him feeling that there's no point in fighting in his current state, and he may as well go to his true state right away.

[TheMikado]

Buutenks^ In BOG Goku fought Beerus as a SSJ around his same power level of 6 or 60% of Beerus. While Beerus fought at 70%.
This was after Goku absorbed God Ki and the SSG form expired so Goku's new regular SSJ is around 50-60% of Beerus full power. In ROF he fought Goku who's base through association like Freeza being able to take on Boo are said to be around SSJ3 levels. Final form Freeza fought base Goku so he's around that strong in final form.

In Chanpa Goku fought assault form Frost and dominated just like Goku would have in the DBZ Frieza arc against Freeza. Remember Freeza went Final form which made Goku go SSJ to win and over when him. Same with Frost vs Goku, implying the multiplers for those races are still the same unless they were both magically reduced by the exact same amount.

Furthermore we know Base Goku is at least as stronger as SSJ3 but got SSJ x50 to take on Final form.. Which Piccolo in turn fights well against. For Piccolo to not ever be at ssj3/Buu levels then suddenly do well against an opponent around x50 that is really really inconsistent.

More importantly this implies Frost, Piccolo are around 50% of God Beerus power level based on SSJ Gokus power level and interaction.

Why is final form frost 50x?He got his butt kicked by a ssj goku who was holding back a ton.

At best he is 2-3x base goku, so since he got weakened means he proly dropped to at base goku's level. So piccolo being able to keep up and all means he is close to ssj3 tier.

or all u6 fighters and this means also piccolo r god tiers.

Id say piccolo being close to ssj3 tier makes more sense than him being god tier for no reason.

on top of that, goku did say he is a slow starter and assault form frost wasnt able to actually harm goku, so most likely goku was still more powerful than assault form frost but simply went ssj to show frost that he also has a transformation so frost shouldnt hold back.

And also, none of the current u6 fighters that fought showed they r god tier, so i see no reason to place frost or maggeta or even cabe9atm) at god tier. And this also means piccolo.

Also whis stated that base saiyans r vastly inferior to beerus,so the 60% thing cannot be true.

I've come to the same conclusions as you. Either is everyone is God Tier, including Piccolo for no reason at all, or All established power levels in BOG and ROF are total BS and Super completely throw out multipliers just because it felt like it.

The problem you can't have Frost at 2-3x base Goku like you're saying and the multiplier still be in effect.
That would make Frost 4-5% of SSJ Goku power, and not even SSJ2 or SSJ3 Goku's total power...

At SSJ1 Frost is 4-6% of Goku
At SSJ2 he is 2-3%
At SSJ3 he is 0.50-0.75% of Goku!!!!

That's even WAY WAY WAY larger even at SSJ1 levels than the gap between Beerus and SSJ3 Goku/Enraged Vegeta.
At that level a punch should kill him, heck Goku should be able to pass gas and knock him out.

The only way all this works is that they completely recanted all power levels and scaling from everyone in Z, BoG, and RoF.
All Racial bonuses like the Saiyan multiplier and Frieza race multiplier are erased. Piccolo gets a crazy power boost.
And every bit of power/transformation lore that has been the center of the DBZ universe and has been established in the past 20 years has been suddenly erased and nothing Akira ever said holds any weight.

[Sora Saiyan]

That's true, but Freeza created his forms and their restrictions. He very easily could have changed those restrictions. As I said there really isn't any rules since Super doesn't explain shit. So really anyone can say or make up whatever the hell they want.

Freeza didn't create his forms.
If you believe he did, show me a quote from manga or even anime, and we see the same thing for frost like freeza.

Saying that he'll "jump directly" to his final form indicates that something is in between, just like pui - pui & Yakon had some fighters in between "Already Yakon?"

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P1.3-4
Vegeta: “Among aliens, there are sometimes guys who change their appearance as the need arises…For things like camouflage, or to not deplete their energy…”
Freeza: “In my case it’s different…It’s because my power is too excessive, so that even I can’t properly control it…”

We actually don't know if Freeza created his other forms, but we do know that his last transformation is his true form, since that's what he said in the manga. I believe it that's accompanied with the reason Freeza has lower forms which is why most people believe he created the restrictions.

[Hugo Boss]

Oh, I thought you meant in the Beerus arc Gohan was weaker than Buu.
Gohans a difficult one to place, he's clearly plenty above Piccolo, but where he is in comparison to Buu is quite a question mark but if RoF arc base Gohan is equal to even 50% Piccolo with the SSJ boost he would be plenty stronger than Buu. I only have Mr Buu around Majin Vegeta. As Vegeta said Gohan has the most potential so it was clearly a bone head move to think of Buu and Uub ahead of him.

But I meant Beerus Arc Gohan lol. That was the Gohan Vegeta saw fighting. By the way, Vegeta said Gohan was stronger than Piccolo only, so he should be the last fighter instead, but Goku refused.

[apex_pretador]

Nothing to suggest that he "created" his forms.
Also, still doesn't explain^^^ highlighted text

They can change their appearance when the need arises. It's not something he just automatically has. These are metamorphosis. Just like how he had to develop a further Golden form, he had to develop lesser restriction forms. Also him jumping directly into final form can easily be interpreted as him feeling that there's no point in fighting in his current state, and he may as well go to his true state right away.

"Directly".
Also, how will you explain frost having EXACTLY same forms as freeza?

[dbzfan7]

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P1.3-4
Vegeta: “Among aliens, there are sometimes guys who change their appearance as the need arises…For things like camouflage, or to not deplete their energy…”
Freeza: “In my case it’s different…It’s because my power is too excessive, so that even I can’t properly control it…”

We actually don't know if Freeza created his other forms, but we do know that his last transformation is his true form, since that's what he said in the manga. I believe it that's accompanied with the reason Freeza has lower forms which is why most people believe he created the restrictions.

He did though I believe. Some species have the ability to adapt and change to fit to environments and circumstances. Need arose for him to restrict his power, and you think he just magically popped out some restricted forms? Cooler only needed one, but he probably could create more if he wanted to. Considering he created the golden form, and could change it's color if he wanted to, I get the feeling he has several metamorphosis possibilities.

"Directly".
Also, how will you explain frost having EXACTLY same forms as freeza?

Your point? Directly means at once, right away. As in not waste time. Directly has SEVERAL meanings. Directly can literally mean skipping a fight in his current state, and going right to meaning business.

He only has 3 forms, with his final one looking like Golden Freeza in ascetics. He may have a second one or not. Cooler had only 2 forms. Cold had 1 form. I doubt every member has 4 forms. Freeza's race creates lower forms to keep themselves in check. Your own list doesn't seem to go by Freeza multiply's his power by 223x so why are you even arguing this if even your own list doesn't follow this description.

[Sora Saiyan]

He did though I believe. Some species have the ability to adapt and change to fit to environments and circumstances. Need arose for him to restrict his power, and you think he just magically popped out some restricted forms? Cooler only needed one, but he probably could create more if he wanted to. Considering he created the golden form, and could change it's color if he wanted to, I get the feeling he has several metamorphosis possibilities..

I believe that Freeza created those forms also, but I just don't think it was ever outright stated in the manga that Freeza created restricted forms. The signs definitely point to that, but I can't remember a direct statement.

But I meant Beerus Arc Gohan lol. That was the Gohan Vegeta saw fighting. By the way, Vegeta said Gohan was stronger than Piccolo only, so he should be the last fighter instead, but Goku refused.

I can't remember the episode perfectly, but wasn't it Goku that suggested Buu in the first place? I really doubt Gohan in his ultimate state would be weaker than Buu, especially when the RoF arc seems to put him at least around Piccolo in base.

[dbzfan7]

He did though I believe. Some species have the ability to adapt and change to fit to environments and circumstances. Need arose for him to restrict his power, and you think he just magically popped out some restricted forms? Cooler only needed one, but he probably could create more if he wanted to. Considering he created the golden form, and could change it's color if he wanted to, I get the feeling he has several metamorphosis possibilities..

I believe that Freeza created those forms also, but I just don't think it was ever outright stated in the manga that Freeza created restricted forms. The signs definitely point to that, but I can't remember a direct statement.

I think the lower forms literally being transformations that lowered his power from his true state, make them restricted forms essentially.

[buutenks]

I've come to the same conclusions as you. Either is everyone is God Tier, including Piccolo for no reason at all, or All established power levels in BOG and ROF are total BS and Super completely throw out multipliers just because it felt like it.

The problem you can't have Frost at 2-3x base Goku like you're saying and the multiplier still be in effect.
That would make Frost 4-5% of SSJ Goku power, and not even SSJ2 or SSJ3 Goku's total power...

At SSJ1 Frost is 4-6% of Goku
At SSJ2 he is 2-3%
At SSJ3 he is 0.50-0.75% of Goku!!!!

That's even WAY WAY WAY larger even at SSJ1 levels than the gap between Beerus and SSJ3 Goku/Enraged Vegeta.
At that level a punch should kill him, heck Goku should be able to pass gas and knock him out.

The only way all this works is that they completely recanted all power levels and scaling from everyone in Z, BoG, and RoF.
All Racial bonuses like the Saiyan multiplier and Frieza race multiplier are erased. Piccolo gets a crazy power boost.
And every bit of power/transformation lore that has been the center of the DBZ universe and has been established in the past 20 years has been suddenly erased and nothing Akira ever said holds any weight.

Goku doesnt use ssj2 and 3 anymore.

Either way point is ssj goku easily defeated frost and he held back allot, while final form frost is above base goku.

So basically ssgss>ssj>>>base.

To little room to squeez 6 and up to 9.

Like base=6
ssj=7.8
ssgss=9

And meaning assault form frost=5.8/5.5
Final form frost=6.8/6.5
Weakend ff frost= 4

Piccolo= 3


The gains between forms is so little its laughable tho.

So it would make sense that the base and ssj r much much weaker and to reach the god tier u need ssj blue for the saiyans, which gives them a massive boost.

but i guess we will finally see next week.

If ssj cabe can give ssgss vegeta a bit of trouble means gap is little. If ssj cabe cant even flinch ssgss vegeta or he simply gives up after seeing the form then the gap is huge.

[Sora Saiyan]

He did though I believe. Some species have the ability to adapt and change to fit to environments and circumstances. Need arose for him to restrict his power, and you think he just magically popped out some restricted forms? Cooler only needed one, but he probably could create more if he wanted to. Considering he created the golden form, and could change it's color if he wanted to, I get the feeling he has several metamorphosis possibilities..

I believe that Freeza created those forms also, but I just don't think it was ever outright stated in the manga that Freeza created restricted forms. The signs definitely point to that, but I can't remember a direct statement.

I think the lower forms literally being transformations that lowered his power from his true state, make them restricted forms essentially.

I'm trying to say that Freeza never said "I created these forms to hide my true power" instead he just implies that's what he's done, but because he never states it outright some people might try and say he was born with those forms, or something like that.

[Hugo Boss]

I can't remember the episode perfectly, but wasn't it Goku that suggested Buu in the first place? I really doubt Gohan in his ultimate state would be weaker than Buu, especially when the RoF arc seems to put him at least around Piccolo in base.

They were wondering who would be the last two fighters to enter their team. Goku always started the suggestions. The first one that came in mind was the good Boo. Vegeta pointed that Beerus defeated him in one blow, but Goku said he is still very powerful when fighting seriously. They agree with inviting Boo. The second was the evil Boo's reincarnation. Vegeta pointed he was too young to participate and Goku agreed to not look for him. The third was Piccolo. Vegeta pointed Gohan was stronger, but Goku said Gohan doesn't fight anymore and Vegeta agreed saying it was a shame. They succeed in calling Boo, and surprisingly Gohan was willing to participate in the place of Piccolo, but his agenda didn't help. Finally, Piccolo accepted their invitation. As an add, they never considered inviting Trunks and Goten, because they weren't strong enough as individuals and Fusion would be against the rules, it's two fighters merged in one, so it's unfair. There you have it.

[Sora Saiyan]

I can't remember the episode perfectly, but wasn't it Goku that suggested Buu in the first place? I really doubt Gohan in his ultimate state would be weaker than Buu, especially when the RoF arc seems to put him at least around Piccolo in base.

They were wondering who would be the last two fighters to enter their team. Goku always started the suggestions. The first one that came in mind was the good Boo. Vegeta pointed that Beerus defeated him in one blow, but Goku said he is still very powerful when fighting seriously. They agree with inviting Boo. The second was the evil Boo's reincarnation. Vegeta pointed he was too young to participate and Goku agreed to not look for him. The third was Piccolo. Vegeta pointed Gohan was stronger, but Goku said Gohan doesn't fight anymore and Vegeta agreed saying it was a shame. They succeed in calling Boo, and surprisingly Gohan was willing to participate in the place of Piccolo, but his agenda didn't help. Finally, Piccolo accepted their invitation. As an add, they never considered invinting Trunks and Goten, because they weren't strong enough as individuals and Fusion would be against the rules, it's two fighters merged in one, so it's unfair. There you have it.

Ah thanks for the detail, but it doesn't look like Vegeta really thinks Buu's stronger than Gohan, just that Goku insisted on Buu and said Gohan doesn't fight. I wouldn't take that to mean Gohans weaker, just he wouldn't want to participate. If anything Vegetas calling Buu weak, and without Gokus intervention Vegeta would've probably ruled Buu out.