Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

I believe that Freeza created those forms also, but I just don't think it was ever outright stated in the manga that Freeza created restricted forms. The signs definitely point to that, but I can't remember a direct statement.

I think the lower forms literally being transformations that lowered his power from his true state, make them restricted forms essentially.

I'm trying to say that Freeza never said "I created these forms to hide my true power" instead he just implies that's what he's done, but because he never states it outright some people might try and say he was born with those forms, or something like that.

I see what you mean. Considering how he has to physically change his entire being a ton, I don't think it's something he had since birth. I theorize he couldn't control his power well in his true state, so using his species metamorphosis ability, he sealed his power behind transformations, so he could keep himself under control. I don't think he was born with 4 forms. King Cold has only 1 form. Cooler only used 2. Chilled only had 1 form. Frost has 3 and possibly 4.

[Sora Saiyan]

I totally agree dbzfan7, and I would even like to think that Freeza based his forms on the different appearances of members of his race. His first form is based on members that look like Chilled, 2nd Form is Cold, and his third form is probably similar to the appearance of some other members of his species that we haven't yet seen. If this were the case it would explain Frost having similar forms IMO.

[dbzfan7]

I totally agree dbzfan7, and I would even like to think that Freeza based his forms on the different appearances of members of his race. His first form is based on members that look like Chilled, 2nd Form is Cold, and his third form is probably similar to the appearance of some other members of his species that we haven't yet seen. If this were the case it would explain Frost having similar forms IMO.

About how many of Freeza’s race are there? Are they quite thriving, with a big population?
Freeza is what you might call a mutated life-form. Strictly speaking, Freeza’s father is a mutant with an abnormally high battle power. And, born from his father alone, still in strong possession of the mutant traits, was Freeza.
Accordingly, even saying “Freeza’s race”, these two are the only ones who possess an abnormal [level of] battle power and cruelty.

This is a bit what's said about the other members. These two are the only one's who are really strong. Only Freeza needed to restrict himself, while Cold was fine. The fact second form Freeza looks like his father could mean he modeled it after his dad.

[Hugo Boss]

If anything Vegetas calling Buu weak, and without Gokus intervention Vegeta would've probably ruled Buu out.

Vegeta was against inviting Boo because he was too stupid. He clarified it when Boo got disqualified in the written test.

[buutenks]

So i thought a bit. And perhaps we are taking the Pl things the wrong way.

I think that one way it could be is that all u6 fighters except for botamo are above the buu saga characters.

So base goku,base vegeta even piccolo is above the buu saga characters. Piccolo and gohan got so strong due to the fact they trained for months.

So with that said, i think there r no actual multipliers, since its hard to judge how many times one is stronger than the other, so IMO this is how it would be:

Vados>/=Whis>>>Beerus>Champa>Hit(?)>ssgss goku/vegeta>>ssj goku/vegeta>/= ssj Cabe>Magetta(after he powered up)>>>FF frost>base Goku/Vegeta/Cabe>/=Assault form frost>/=Piccolo>Buu saga characters(this means buu,gotenks, with vegetto being an exception, due to being so powerful).

I wrote ? for hit because he mind wind up being more powerful than champa or beerus and monaka i currently got no idea.

So this would be the simplest way and i simply said u6 fighters>buu saga because in general the characters that appear in the next arc are more powerful than ones in previous arc.

If anything Vegetas calling Buu weak, and without Gokus intervention Vegeta would've probably ruled Buu out.

Vegeta was against inviting Boo because he was too stupid. He clarified it when Boo got disqualified in the written test.

Vegeta said buu is weak because he got taken out by beerus in one punch. Then goku says true but buu is still strong, aka he is still as strong as an ssj3 or ssj2.

[LowRyder2005]

Here is something that is probably of importance. Gohan says that he is sure that Tagoma is hiding power comparable to what he had at his best. To which Piccolo exclaims: "What?!" (in the sense "What!? You must be kidding us! if so we are 1000% screwed")

Of course Gohan doesn't tell if he really means his ultimate form or just the best he reached in normal state as per post Z sword training. Of course Gohan may had been mistaken too. But it is safe to say that the intention at least is that he meant his ultimate form. The problem with this is that it would mean as SSJ he got even stronger than ultimate despite declining. That makes little sense. Also if he really was able to go SSJ on top of his ultimate form (or partially ultimate form) he would have done it against Buutenks too - after all he was stronger back then.

Very nice finding. Good catch.
Although the present suggests to me it could refer to the "best" Gohan could reach at the time he said the phrase.
Otherwise, I would see a "he's comparable to the strenght I had when at my best" (since Gohan arguably isn't at his best presently; refer more or less to everything HugoBoss' pointed out and the general sentiment about Mr. Buu being able to turn everything in their favor) as more appropriate.

After all, we do know that Tagoma isn't actually comparable even to Super Saiyan Gohan, who in turn is most likely weaker than Good Buu given what we're shown both in ROF and the Universe 6 Tournament, so his prediction is still fairly inaccurate.

Combining hints and quotes here and there through the two sagas I think what they are at least trying to convey is something like this:

Ultimate Gohan >>> Super Buu >>>>> Fat Buu >>> SS2 Gohan post-Z sword >> Majin Vegeta = SS2 Vegeta = Good Buu >> Ultimate Gohan (Battle of Gods) >> SS Gohan in ROF >=< Tagoma (Gohan's estimation) >> Ginyu-Tagoma > Tagoma (in reality) > Piccolo >>> Base Gohan in ROF > Weighted (and totally tired?) Piccolo

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta said buu is weak because he got taken out by beerus in one punch. Then goku says true but buu is still strong, aka he is still as strong as an ssj3 or ssj2.

Vegeta only pointed Boo was done in with one move. He didn't say Boo was weak. As a matter of fact, everyone in the ship was in the same ballpark, but among them Boo was the strongest until Vegeta got mad.

[LowRyder2005]

More than anything, regarding the ship I mean, it always felt strange for Good Buu to put up a good fight anyway even if you take into account his regeneration: he's supposed to be weaker than Fat Buu and Evil Buu, who are in turn far weaker than Super Buu. And Super Buu is supposed to be far weaker than Ultimate Gohan.
And it would feel odd for Gohan to suddenly lose... let's say 80% of his power in just some months when he had not trained for some years.

I think the "Gohan never trained after the Buu Saga and he was fairly weaker even in BOG" is quite a sound theory. I mean, a single hit using Good Buu as a mace of sorts was enough to knock him out cold while Beerus dished out a lot more punishment to Buu himself. I think it's a fair argument per se, unless you want to take the "only a Buu can harm another Buu" literally, but then you'd have anime Vegito talking about how he can overload Buu's regeneration and destroy him by sheer phsyical force/ki.

[buutenks]

Well IMo, frost magetta etc r stronger than buu saga characters. Goku being on the same level as FF freeza and assault form frost equaling goku and so forth places them above buu saga characters.Think piccolo is simply an exception to that rule and frost was perhaps very weakened.

This makes me wonder,why did goku bring in buu and piccolo to begin with?They had no idea how strong the u6 team is, what if all of them had been god tier?

I guess if you think a bit, they didnt really had anyone else to choose lol.

[TheMikado]

So i thought a bit. And perhaps we are taking the Pl things the wrong way.

I think that one way it could be is that all u6 fighters except for botamo are above the buu saga characters.

So base goku,base vegeta even piccolo is above the buu saga characters. Piccolo and gohan got so strong due to the fact they trained for months.

So with that said, i think there r no actual multipliers, since its hard to judge how many times one is stronger than the other, so IMO this is how it would be:

Vados>/=Whis>>>Beerus>Champa>Hit(?)>ssgss goku/vegeta>>ssj goku/vegeta>/= ssj Cabe>Magetta(after he powered up)>>>FF frost>base Goku/Vegeta/Cabe>/=Assault form frost>/=Piccolo>Buu saga characters(this means buu,gotenks, with vegetto being an exception, due to being so powerful).

I wrote ? for hit because he mind wind up being more powerful than champa or beerus and monaka i currently got no idea.

So this would be the simplest way and i simply said u6 fighters>buu saga because in general the characters that appear in the next arc are more powerful than ones in previous arc.

I think we all agree that they are above Buu Arc, the problem is that SSJ3 which is the standard level is x4 a SSJ2. That means even if Piccolo had obtained SSJ2 level in Buu Arc (although there is no evidence he did) he would still need to get a x4 power boost to get to SSJ3 levels. Furthermore we know SSJ3 in Super is less than 10% of Beerus power. so let's say 5% or 0.5 on the God scale. Piccolo would still need to power up the x4 + x6 which would mean Piccolo to get to the power level of 3 someone suggested so he would need to have been x24 stronger than the Buu or even the ROF arc based on the power comparisons. He would have to achieve that training in the woods with Gohan for 4 months while Goku and Vegeta are busy training with Whis and in the RoSaT for 3 years... No way he was able to close that much of a gap. Then the whole issue of of someone suggesting Piccolo at a 3 level being 30% of Beerus power, i.e. God Tier territory, a power up of x24, and almost as bad an explanation as Frieza and crews power up. Piccolo got much smaller power gains for much larger events i.e. fusion with other Nameks.

[buutenks]

So i thought a bit. And perhaps we are taking the Pl things the wrong way.

I think that one way it could be is that all u6 fighters except for botamo are above the buu saga characters.

So base goku,base vegeta even piccolo is above the buu saga characters. Piccolo and gohan got so strong due to the fact they trained for months.

So with that said, i think there r no actual multipliers, since its hard to judge how many times one is stronger than the other, so IMO this is how it would be:

Vados>/=Whis>>>Beerus>Champa>Hit(?)>ssgss goku/vegeta>>ssj goku/vegeta>/= ssj Cabe>Magetta(after he powered up)>>>FF frost>base Goku/Vegeta/Cabe>/=Assault form frost>/=Piccolo>Buu saga characters(this means buu,gotenks, with vegetto being an exception, due to being so powerful).

I wrote ? for hit because he mind wind up being more powerful than champa or beerus and monaka i currently got no idea.

So this would be the simplest way and i simply said u6 fighters>buu saga because in general the characters that appear in the next arc are more powerful than ones in previous arc.

I think we all agree that they are above Buu Arc, the problem is that SSJ3 which is the standard level is x4 a SSJ2. That means even if Piccolo had obtained SSJ2 level in Buu Arc (although there is no evidence he did) he would still need to get a x4 power boost to get to SSJ3 levels. Furthermore we know SSJ3 in Super is less than 10% of Beerus power. so let's say 5% or 0.5 on the God scale. Piccolo would still need to power up the x4 + x6 which would mean Piccolo to get to the power level of 3 someone suggested so he would need to have been x24 stronger than the Buu or even the ROF arc based on the power comparisons. He would have to achieve that training in the woods with Gohan for 4 months while Goku and Vegeta are busy training with Whis and in the RoSaT for 3 years... No way he was able to close that much of a gap. Then the whole issue of of someone suggesting Piccolo at a 3 level being 30% of Beerus power, i.e. God Tier territory, a power up of x24, and almost as bad an explanation as Frieza and crews power up. Piccolo got much smaller power gains for much larger events i.e. fusion with other Nameks.

He doesnt need to be many times stronger than a ssj3. He just needs to be in that range, since ff frost could have been heavily weakened due to goku's beating.

So piccolo could be the exception and botamo and mr buu, rest above buu saga characters.

[namekiansaiyan]

So i thought a bit. And perhaps we are taking the Pl things the wrong way.

I think that one way it could be is that all u6 fighters except for botamo are above the buu saga characters.

So base goku,base vegeta even piccolo is above the buu saga characters. Piccolo and gohan got so strong due to the fact they trained for months.

So with that said, i think there r no actual multipliers, since its hard to judge how many times one is stronger than the other, so IMO this is how it would be:

Vados>/=Whis>>>Beerus>Champa>Hit(?)>ssgss goku/vegeta>>ssj goku/vegeta>/= ssj Cabe>Magetta(after he powered up)>>>FF frost>base Goku/Vegeta/Cabe>/=Assault form frost>/=Piccolo>Buu saga characters(this means buu,gotenks, with vegetto being an exception, due to being so powerful).

I wrote ? for hit because he mind wind up being more powerful than champa or beerus and monaka i currently got no idea.

So this would be the simplest way and i simply said u6 fighters>buu saga because in general the characters that appear in the next arc are more powerful than ones in previous arc.

I think we all agree that they are above Buu Arc, the problem is that SSJ3 which is the standard level is x4 a SSJ2. That means even if Piccolo had obtained SSJ2 level in Buu Arc (although there is no evidence he did) he would still need to get a x4 power boost to get to SSJ3 levels. Furthermore we know SSJ3 in Super is less than 10% of Beerus power. so let's say 5% or 0.5 on the God scale. Piccolo would still need to power up the x4 + x6 which would mean Piccolo to get to the power level of 3 someone suggested so he would need to have been x24 stronger than the Buu or even the ROF arc based on the power comparisons. He would have to achieve that training in the woods with Gohan for 4 months while Goku and Vegeta are busy training with Whis and in the RoSaT for 3 years... No way he was able to close that much of a gap. Then the whole issue of of someone suggesting Piccolo at a 3 level being 30% of Beerus power, i.e. God Tier territory, a power up of x24, and almost as bad an explanation as Frieza and crews power up. Piccolo got much smaller power gains for much larger events i.e. fusion with other Nameks.

He doesnt need to be many times stronger than a ssj3. He just needs to be in that range, since ff frost could have been heavily weakened due to goku's beating.

So piccolo could be the exception and botamo and mr buu, rest above buu saga characters.

Frost never looked tired at all, he was probably lying about it like he did with his poison.

[buutenks]

Frost never looked tired at all, he was probably lying about it like he did with his poison.

Nah id say he was pretty tired out.He is similar to freeza, so no doubt like freeza when he is taking a beating he loses power.

[TheMikado]

Frost never looked tired at all, he was probably lying about it like he did with his poison.

Nah id say he was pretty tired out.He is similar to freeza, so no doubt like freeza when he is taking a beating he loses power.

He was definitely tired, but not that tired. Piccolo would still need to be several times stronger than a SSJ3 to even stand a chance without getting blown away with one punch. It's not like Frost was holding back or anything.

[dbzfan7]

Another reason I believe Goku is SSJ3 level base or more is for the ending to make sense. Otherwise Oob is suddenly God tier too for no reason. Goku thought he could possibly lose and that Oob was as amazing as expected. So at least without transforming, Oob should be a challenge.

[namekiansaiyan]

Another reason I believe Goku is SSJ3 level base or more is for the ending to make sense. Otherwise Oob is suddenly God tier too for no reason. Goku thought he could possibly lose and that Oob was as amazing as expected. So at least without transforming, Oob should be a challenge.

What happens in the future means nothing now. There is also a good chance the ending will get rewritten( I hope so anyway so other characters are relevent) apart from Uub being introduced in the series at that point in time and then the series continues he series after that. Also remember that Goku is probably just going to get even stronger from now until they meet Uub

[LowRyder2005]

Another reason I believe Goku is SSJ3 level base or more is for the ending to make sense. Otherwise Oob is suddenly God tier too for no reason. Goku thought he could possibly lose and that Oob was as amazing as expected. So at least without transforming, Oob should be a challenge.

In the anime? This is perhaps the best argument yet, but some screenshots giving some insight about Goku thinking he could lose to Uub in base form would be in order.

As of today this would greatly strengthen the Goku can turn on/off God ki argument or that Goku can't get stronger than Super Saiyan 3 in his Base Form, then.
Uub can't and shouldn't be stronger than Kid Buu. It stands to reason he can at most be his equal, since Goku said he had simply "met his expectations" and, reasonably, he could at most expect he was on par with Buu (but I'd dare say that Uub is fairly weaker, at that point in time).

[TheMikado]

One thing is for sure, if next week Cabba puts up a decent fight against the all powerful SSB the angst in this thread will only heighten.

[ZombieVito]

Combining hints and quotes here and there through the two sagas I think what they are at least trying to convey is something like this:

Ultimate Gohan >>> Super Buu >>>>> SS2 Gohan post-Z sword > Fat Buu >>> Majin Vegeta = SS2 Vegeta = Good Buu >> Ultimate Gohan (Battle of Gods) >> SS Gohan in ROF >=< Tagoma (Gohan's estimation) >> Ginyu-Tagoma > Tagoma (in reality) > Piccolo >>> Base Gohan in ROF > Weighted (and totally tired?) Piccolo

I would put weighted Piccolo over base Gohan. There's no reason why he faced Tagoma (Who almost killed Gohan) otherwise.

[worrior_v1]

Hey guys, I've been lurking this forum for months and love the community & content so far, so I'd love to say thank you to everyone for their informative and contributive posts. This is my first post so please go easy on me

The way I see the power-levels of our dragon ball warriors so far, as it is ( that is as of episode 36 ) is fairly complicated. We do have issues with multipliers and other dramas such as characters getting enormous power-ups in seemingly limited amounts of time (freeza comes to mind, piccolo as of late etc) however I feel as if it is explainable in a sense. For freeza, it is fairly simple- he was born with an enormous amount of power that took goku decades to even match, let alone over-come and beat, therefore his power up to golden freeza does make sense to an extent considering the lack of training he has been doing his whole life. Now the issue with piccolo is that it is not certain whether he is at ssj3 powerlevels in the buu arc- he could not be as if he was Frost would absolutely annihilate him in their fight, tired or not. In this case, the only plausible explanation that we can go with, is that Frost was EXTREMELY fatigued when vsing Piccolo, perhaps at 25% of his maximum ability due to Goku's beat down in the episode prior to that, therefore Piccolo was able to have a chance to use battle tactics & not sheer force and strength to overcome frost, and with his *enormous* power up which was given to him after the ROF saga (not sure why or how but we just have to go with the flow of super's story) he was able to at least hold his own and even win against Frost. I personally think that is the most logical explanation, since Piccolo being on god-tier levels of power is absurd to say the least and having everyone on god-tier levels of power in terms of the Universe 6 fighters would just be bad writing.

Now I'm going to go out on a limb here and state what I believe to be the power levels of the fighters left in the tournament thus far:

Monaka>Vados>Whis>Goku/Hit/Vegeta>Beerus>Champa>Cabbe

Let me explain the logic behind this.

In the Revival of F saga, Goku achieved Super Sayain Blue vs the fight against Golden Freeza where it is widely acknowledged that he was at least using 80% of Beerus's full power, so he was practically an 8, where Beerus is a 10 and Whis being a 15. Golden Freeza was Perhaps an 8.5 or a 9 but to be safe lets say 8.5. Even in this instance, we can already see that Goku is only 20% less powerful than Beerus compared to the last time that they fought in which Goku was around a 6 or 60% of Beerus's power. (Note: We are using Beerus's power as an example for the other fights as well considering his is canon).

So in the 6 month training period where Goku & Vegeta train with Whis, they achieve a new "form" and gain a 20% increase in power in between the BOG and ROF saga's. Now this is where things get interesting. If Goku and Vegeta were training for 6 months and had achieved a new form ( Super Sayain Blue) one could only assume that if they had a further 6 months of intense weighted training following Whis's regime, PLUS 3 whole YEARS in the ROSAT preceding the universal tournament, that they would acquire a MASSIVE power-boost and achieve an entirely new powerful form which is more powerful that even Super Sayain Blue as it is. I feel as if Goku and Vegeta are holding back faaaaar more power that what is being explicated so far in the tournament saga episodes, and I believe if they truly went all out now, that they have achieved at least a 14, at bare minimum, being 4 points above Beerus, but still, 1 point below Whis and 2 points Below Vados (I think shes a 16, slighter stronger than her twin brother).

I think this makes sense because Vegeta was holding back the entire time, that is Super Sayain Blue, mainly because he did not want Hit to know he has godlike power ( purely due to pride reasons, with Goku being a more "worryful" person that Hit could be evil thus he himself would not want to reveal his true power as well). I think in this next episode vs Cabbe, while I'm not 100% sure as to what is going to happen, I believe Vegeta will not be forced into turning into Super Sayain Blue, but he Will be bested by Cabbe when they are both Super Sayain's. I think Vegeta will take a beating on purpose, all the whilst gauging Hit's reaction also while mentoring and pushing Cabbe to his own limit. & When Vegeta deems it to be right, he will transform into SSB and that will of course put an end to the fight and gain Hit's reaction ( I think his reaction to witnessing the SSB will either confirm my theory that they are all more powerful that Champa and Beerus as it is ).

I think this new 'form' that Goku and Vegeta have is perhaps an "enraged" form of God-Sayain powers, that is, Blue is a more calmer, collected & technical Ki God energy, as seen by a "perfect" control of Ki (that is Ki is not escaping their body), whereas this new form is going to be an enraged version where all the Ki that they have been manipulating into controlling thus far, is all let loose and they are somehow able to harness it to increase their powers even further beyond, giving them an immense power boost. However, I believe that there could be drawbacks to this form, where it is possible that they could lose control and forget about their morals and their families, or become evil, as seen in the Buu saga where Majin Vegeta had a power boost. Bear in mind, this is only my personal theory, as 3 entire YEARS of training in the ROSAT, with Goku and Vegeta the two most powerful sayain's in the universe, to not increase their powerful from the ROF saga, would not be logical to say the least.

In any case, from what I've seen so far in the tournament saga, Hit certainly seems more powerful then Champa himself, as he shows no interest in any of the fighters abilities or powers so far, and while this may not be a reliable indicator of fighting abilitiy, it might imply that none of what he has witnessed so far, even vado's abiltiies in creating new things & the potential fights that could have erupted between Champa and Beerus , have worried him, does indicate that he is a powerful warrior. I believe that Cabbe will join the Z fighters in later sagas, perhaps after the tournament arc since his curiosity about the sayain's in universe 7 and how they are to powerful would spark enough of an interest in him to join them.

Monaka is a tough one to grasp, I think his enraged powers might even surpass Vados and Whis's best abilities, and while my prediction does not hold any merit thus far, I think Beerus's statement that an enraged Monaka whose thought alone destroyed a planet, is enough to warrant that Monaka is not a joke by any means and perhaps his psycotic powers might be even beyond that of the new form the Goku and Vegeta have acquired through their years of training in the ROSAT.

All of this being said, I believe that the reason there is so much trouble grasping powerlevels of enemies and our heros from Universe 7, is mainly due to Goku and Vegeta holding back so much power. I believe Piccolo got an insane power boost, but was also lucky facing a weakened frost, in addition to supreme battle tactics being used in the fight.

I'm not sure where the power level of the other fighters lie, such as Gohan, Goten & Trunks, and other characters, but it is sufficient enough to say that everyone here is far, far more powerful than they have ever been in their lives & will make for a wonderful story to come !

That is my opinion from what I have seen so far, sorry for the long first post haha I just really wanted to let you know how I felt about this whole Tournament saga and opinions on power levels so far. In reality, I think that multipliers and numbers are not really good indicators about prediciting the strength of a fighter, and in this case, akira is probably only using the 10, 15 ( Beerus and Whis) as a base for which to draw power levels of fighters as of now and in the future !