Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Khin]

Combining hints and quotes here and there through the two sagas I think what they are at least trying to convey is something like this:

Ultimate Gohan >>> Super Buu >>>>> SS2 Gohan post-Z sword > Fat Buu >>> Majin Vegeta = SS2 Vegeta = Good Buu >> Ultimate Gohan (Battle of Gods) >> SS Gohan in ROF >=< Tagoma (Gohan's estimation) >> Ginyu-Tagoma > Tagoma (in reality) > Piccolo >>> Base Gohan in ROF > Weighted (and totally tired?) Piccolo

Z-Sword Gohan > Innocent Boo ? There's no way Gohan will get more than 2 times stronger by just swinging a mere sword.

[worrior_v1]

Combining hints and quotes here and there through the two sagas I think what they are at least trying to convey is something like this:

Ultimate Gohan >>> Super Buu >>>>> SS2 Gohan post-Z sword > Fat Buu >>> Majin Vegeta = SS2 Vegeta = Good Buu >> Ultimate Gohan (Battle of Gods) >> SS Gohan in ROF >=< Tagoma (Gohan's estimation) >> Ginyu-Tagoma > Tagoma (in reality) > Piccolo >>> Base Gohan in ROF > Weighted (and totally tired?) Piccolo

Z-Sword Gohan > Innocent Boo ? There's no way Gohan will get more than 2 times stronger by just swinging a mere sword.

The Legendary Z sword tho

[Khin]

You mean the Z-Sword that Beerus used to seal Elder Kaioshin ? I don't believe it's as great as Kibito and Kaioshin made them look like.It's pretty much implied that the Z-Sword was just way too overhyped after it broke.

[worrior_v1]

You mean the Z-Sword that Beerus used to seal Elder Kaioshin ? I don't believe it's as great as Kibito and Kaioshin made them look like.It's pretty much implied that the Z-Sword was just way too overhyped after it broke.

In the past there have been far more absurd power-level increases given then at least from an item which is based upon DBZ lore and has some premise in its history.

For example, doing a special dance.....

[Khin]

Gohan only notes that his arm strength increased a lot.Then Kaioshin assumes that Gohan got way stronger.Kaioshin's definitely not the most reliable person when it comes to powerscaling.

This is getting way off topic so

[worrior_v1]

Gohan only notes that his arm strength increased a lot.Then Kaioshin assumes that Gohan got way stronger.Kaioshin's definitely not the most reliable person when it comes to powerscaling.

This is getting way off topic so

Okay I get your point, it is getting off0topic.

What do you think of my previous post btw?

[Khin]

What do you think of my previous post btw?

I don't think Goku/Vegeta has surpassed Beerus.Vegeta stated that they were already close to the limits of their power,and that they wouldn't improve that much anymore.I have it something like this.

Beerus : 10
Champa : 9.9

Blue Goku/Vegeta (ROF Arc) ; 7
Blue Goku/Vegeta (Champa Arc) : 8.5

[Bullza]

You mean the Z-Sword that Beerus used to seal Elder Kaioshin ? I don't believe it's as great as Kibito and Kaioshin made them look like.It's pretty much implied that the Z-Sword was just way too overhyped after it broke.

When Goku showed up on the Supreme Kai planet he had a go with it and he commented on it being heavy but then he did pass it back to Gohan with one outstretched arm.

The Z Sword probably bought Gohan back to Goku's level. It shouldn't have been enough for him to surpass Buu though.

[apex_pretador]

Here is sonething I posted in another thread. I think it is worth posting here too. It makes piccolo's gain believable, and not needing a comment, while still not far surpassing buu.


Piccolo - 10 (weighted)
Buu arc SS gohan - 11

Tagoma - 15
Ginyu tagoma - 18
SS gohan - 25 (atleast) ~ = buu (fat)

First form freeza - 35 ~= SS gotenks post
Second form freeza - 70 ~= super buu
Third form freeza- 100 ~= Mystic gohan
Final form freeza - 150 ~= buutenks / buuhan
Golden - 30,000

Base goku - 160
Base vegeta - 160
Buuhan - 160

Vegetto - 1000

SS goku / vegeta - 8000
SSG goku - 20,000
SSB - 25,000

-------------in U 6 arc, this becomes----------------
Goku / vegeta - 170
SS - 1700 (suppressed), 8500 (full power)

Botamo - 20 ~= M Vegeta
Frost - 50 ~= Kid buu
Assault form = 170 ~= buuhan
Final form = 280 , 200 (tired) , 180 (more tired)
Piccolo = 30 ~= Fat buu
Makankosappo = 350

Cabba = 150 (Maybe)??
Magatta = 130 (Maybe)??

For reference, buu arc powerhuoses

• M vegeta = 19
  Fat buu = 24 - 30
  
  SS gotenks (post) - 38
  SS3 goku = 45, max ki = 55 (hypothetical)
  Kid buu = 50
  Super buu = 68
  SS3 gotenks = 83
  Gohan = 95
  Buutenks = 155
  Buuhan = 160
  Buuccolo = 75

[namekiansaiyan]

Here is sonething I posted in another thread. I think it is worth posting here too. It makes piccolo's gain believable, and not needing a comment, while still not far surpassing buu.


Piccolo - 10 (weighted)
Buu arc SS gohan - 11

Tagoma - 15
Ginyu tagoma - 18
SS gohan - 25 (atleast) ~ = buu (fat)

First form freeza - 35 ~= SS gotenks post
Second form freeza - 70 ~= super buu
Third form freeza- 100 ~= Mystic gohan
Final form freeza - 150 ~= buutenks / buuhan
Golden - 30,000

Base goku - 160
Base vegeta - 160
Buuhan - 160

Vegetto - 1000

SS goku / vegeta - 8000
SSG goku - 20,000
SSB - 25,000

-------------in U 6 arc, this becomes----------------
Goku / vegeta - 170
SS - 1700 (suppressed), 8500 (full power)

Botamo - 20 ~= M Vegeta
Frost - 50 ~= Kid buu
Assault form = 170 ~= buuhan
Final form = 280 , 200 (tired) , 180 (more tired)
Piccolo = 30 ~= Fat buu
Makankosappo = 350

Cabba = 150 (Maybe)??
Magatta = 130 (Maybe)??

For reference, buu arc powerhuoses

• M vegeta = 19
  Fat buu = 24 - 30
  
  SS gotenks (post) - 38
  SS3 goku = 45, max ki = 55 (hypothetical)
  Kid buu = 50
  Super buu = 68
  SS3 gotenks = 83
  Gohan = 95
  Buutenks = 155
  Buuhan = 160
  Buuccolo = 75

Basically I read from this you find it hard to believe Piccolo got a lot stronger so you moved everyone else's power level instead of just moving his.

[worrior_v1]

What do you think of my previous post btw?

I don't think Goku/Vegeta has surpassed Beerus.Vegeta stated that they were already close to the limits of their power,and that they wouldn't improve that much anymore.I have it something like this.

Beerus : 10
Champa : 9.9

Blue Goku/Vegeta (ROF Arc) ; 7
Blue Goku/Vegeta (Champa Arc) : 8.5

Where did vegeta state that?

Was it after they came out of ROSAT?

[apex_pretador]

Here is sonething I posted in another thread. I think it is worth posting here too. It makes piccolo's gain believable, and not needing a comment, while still not far surpassing buu.


Piccolo - 10 (weighted)
Buu arc SS gohan - 11

Tagoma - 15
Ginyu tagoma - 18
SS gohan - 25 (atleast) ~ = buu (fat)

First form freeza - 35 ~= SS gotenks post
Second form freeza - 70 ~= super buu
Third form freeza- 100 ~= Mystic gohan
Final form freeza - 150 ~= buutenks / buuhan
Golden - 30,000

Base goku - 160
Base vegeta - 160
Buuhan - 160

Vegetto - 1000

SS goku / vegeta - 8000
SSG goku - 20,000
SSB - 25,000

-------------in U 6 arc, this becomes----------------
Goku / vegeta - 170
SS - 1700 (suppressed), 8500 (full power)

Botamo - 20 ~= M Vegeta
Frost - 50 ~= Kid buu
Assault form = 170 ~= buuhan
Final form = 280 , 200 (tired) , 180 (more tired)
Piccolo = 30 ~= Fat buu
Makankosappo = 350

Cabba = 150 (Maybe)??
Magatta = 130 (Maybe)??

For reference, buu arc powerhuoses

• M vegeta = 19
  Fat buu = 24 - 30
  
  SS gotenks (post) - 38
  SS3 goku = 45, max ki = 55 (hypothetical)
  Kid buu = 50
  Super buu = 68
  SS3 gotenks = 83
  Gohan = 95
  Buutenks = 155
  Buuhan = 160
  Buuccolo = 75

Basically I read from this you find it hard to believe Piccolo got a lot stronger so you moved everyone else's power level instead of just moving his.

what?

[worrior_v1]

Here is sonething I posted in another thread. I think it is worth posting here too. It makes piccolo's gain believable, and not needing a comment, while still not far surpassing buu.


Piccolo - 10 (weighted)
Buu arc SS gohan - 11

Tagoma - 15
Ginyu tagoma - 18
SS gohan - 25 (atleast) ~ = buu (fat)

First form freeza - 35 ~= SS gotenks post
Second form freeza - 70 ~= super buu
Third form freeza- 100 ~= Mystic gohan
Final form freeza - 150 ~= buutenks / buuhan
Golden - 30,000

Base goku - 160
Base vegeta - 160
Buuhan - 160

Vegetto - 1000

SS goku / vegeta - 8000
SSG goku - 20,000
SSB - 25,000

-------------in U 6 arc, this becomes----------------
Goku / vegeta - 170
SS - 1700 (suppressed), 8500 (full power)

Botamo - 20 ~= M Vegeta
Frost - 50 ~= Kid buu
Assault form = 170 ~= buuhan
Final form = 280 , 200 (tired) , 180 (more tired)
Piccolo = 30 ~= Fat buu
Makankosappo = 350

Cabba = 150 (Maybe)??
Magatta = 130 (Maybe)??

For reference, buu arc powerhuoses

• M vegeta = 19
  Fat buu = 24 - 30
  
  SS gotenks (post) - 38
  SS3 goku = 45, max ki = 55 (hypothetical)
  Kid buu = 50
  Super buu = 68
  SS3 gotenks = 83
  Gohan = 95
  Buutenks = 155
  Buuhan = 160
  Buuccolo = 75

Basically I read from this you find it hard to believe Piccolo got a lot stronger so you moved everyone else's power level instead of just moving his.

Cabbe is far stronger than final form frost, where did you get that from?

[apex_pretador]

Here is sonething I posted in another thread. I think it is worth posting here too. It makes piccolo's gain believable, and not needing a comment, while still not far surpassing buu.

Spoiler:

Piccolo - 10 (weighted)
Buu arc SS gohan - 11

Tagoma - 15
Ginyu tagoma - 18
SS gohan - 25 (atleast) ~ = buu (fat)

First form freeza - 35 ~= SS gotenks post
Second form freeza - 70 ~= super buu
Third form freeza- 100 ~= Mystic gohan
Final form freeza - 150 ~= buutenks / buuhan
Golden - 30,000

Base goku - 160
Base vegeta - 160
Buuhan - 160

Vegetto - 1000

SS goku / vegeta - 8000
SSG goku - 20,000
SSB - 25,000

-------------in U 6 arc, this becomes----------------
Goku / vegeta - 170
SS - 1700 (suppressed), 8500 (full power)

Botamo - 20 ~= M Vegeta
Frost - 50 ~= Kid buu
Assault form = 170 ~= buuhan
Final form = 280 , 200 (tired) , 180 (more tired)
Piccolo = 30 ~= Fat buu
Makankosappo = 350

Cabba = 150 (Maybe)??
Magatta = 130 (Maybe)??

For reference, buu arc powerhuoses

• M vegeta = 19
  Fat buu = 24 - 30
  
  SS gotenks (post) - 38
  SS3 goku = 45, max ki = 55 (hypothetical)
  Kid buu = 50
  Super buu = 68
  SS3 gotenks = 83
  Gohan = 95
  Buutenks = 155
  Buuhan = 160
  Buuccolo = 75

Basically I read from this you find it hard to believe Piccolo got a lot stronger so you moved everyone else's power level instead of just moving his.

Cabbe is far stronger than final form frost, where did you get that from?

proof? until we watch the next ep, we can't say a word about it.

[Bullza]

What do you think of my previous post btw?

I don't think Goku/Vegeta has surpassed Beerus.Vegeta stated that they were already close to the limits of their power,and that they wouldn't improve that much anymore.I have it something like this.

Beerus : 10
Champa : 9.9

Blue Goku/Vegeta (ROF Arc) ; 7
Blue Goku/Vegeta (Champa Arc) : 8.5

Where did vegeta state that?

Was it after they came out of ROSAT?

No it was before it when Goku was goading Vegeta to go in to the ROSAT. It was after the Gohan vs Piccolo training scene as well.

[LowRyder2005]

Combining hints and quotes here and there through the two sagas I think what they are at least trying to convey is something like this:

Ultimate Gohan >>> Super Buu >>>>> SS2 Gohan post-Z sword > Fat Buu >>> Majin Vegeta = SS2 Vegeta = Good Buu >> Ultimate Gohan (Battle of Gods) >> SS Gohan in ROF >=< Tagoma (Gohan's estimation) >> Ginyu-Tagoma > Tagoma (in reality) > Piccolo >>> Base Gohan in ROF > Weighted (and totally tired?) Piccolo

Z-Sword Gohan > Innocent Boo ? There's no way Gohan will get more than 2 times stronger by just swinging a mere sword.

That's not really the point but I had, in fact, forgot Fat Buu was the one still around when Gohan completes his training and Goku still thinks Gohan can't beat Buu at that time.

So, Bullza is right. Gohan should probably have regained his old power and possibly be somewhat stronger than what he was at the Cell Game (so he's at least > Majin Vegeta in the anime, Goku is another can of worms so I'll put him aside), but still be quite below Fat Buu. Otherwise, I guess, Goku would have given his consent to send Gohan to the fight right away.

[Khin]

I don't see how that implies that Gohan got way stronger.It just means that he got used to the z sword and his arm strength has increased.It's like being a bodybuilder.Goku is probably used to weights because he trained on the afterlife with it (see the 40 tons thingy).

Where did vegeta state that?

Was it after they came out of ROSAT?

Before they went inside.

Spoiler:

Minute: 21

Vegeta: "We're already close to the limit of our strength. To be honest, no matter how much more we keep training, we only have very slight room for growth."
Goku: "What're you sayin'? There's that Monaka guy Beerus called the strongest he had fought. Even if we can only grow a little bit, if we don't try, we'll never close the gap between us and him!"

Significance: Apparently, Vegeta believes that he and Goku are reaching the upper-limit of their potential. No reason is given as to why.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't see how that implies that Gohan got way stronger.It just means that he got used to the z sword and his arm strength has increased.It's like being a bodybuilder.Goku is probably used to weights because he trained on the afterlife with it (see the 40 tons thingy).

The Z-Sword training was expressly brought up with the intention of getting Gohan strong enough to beat Fat Buu; Gohan remarks he has to practice with the Z-sword to get "close to his father" and although later Goku adds that Gohan may not beat Buu anyway, both Kaioshin and Kibito act like Gohan got quite a big deal stronger by simply practicing with the sword.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P12.3-5
Context: as Gohan trains with the Z Sword
Kaioshin: “…This is absolutely unbelievable…To think that he’d become able to swing the Z Sword around so much in such a short period of time.”
Gohan: “…Father gave it his all and continued training even after going to the afterlife…I’ve got to draw closer to him, even just a li-little bit…Because Ma-Majin Boo is still alive…!”

And his arm strenght should convert into greater power a Super Saiyan, so apparently "more arm strenght = better performance against Buu".

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

Only Goku, who has actually fought Fat Buu extensively, is unsure about the idea of pitting Gohan against Buu anyway. But notice that while he questions Gohan's superiority, he is not sure he is inferior as well.

Moreover, in the manga the fact that Gohan can swing the sword feasibly, while Goku can barely lift it and with great effort, heavily suggests that Gohan has surpassed his fighter at equal forms.
In the anime we can infer that Goku should be holding back all the time.

In any way, there is nothing suggesting Gohan just wasted time swinging the sword. It got him stronger, enough for Goku to "wonder if he had a chance against Fat Buu" when he had previously said that "Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta couldn't have beaten Fat Buu even if all three of them (Goku, Gohan and Vegeta) went at Buu together".

[Khin]

[A Respond to my Post]

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

Gohan only noted that his arm strength has increased a lot,no comment about his overall power whatsoever.It was Kaioshin (One of the dumbest characters in the arc) that assumes Gohan got overall stronger.

Arm strength wouldn't do any jack shit to Majin Boo since Boo can manipulate his body and the power gap.The same as how professional bodybuilders can't beat trained Mixed Martial Arts fighters.We saw times in the series where characters way stronger than someone can't do things that the other can do strength wise.Especially if they'e not used to it.Take Gohan having a hard time in the gravity of the RoSaT for example or Kid Trunks having a hard time with a mesely 150x gravity when even Arrival on Namek Goku threat it as if its a normal gravity.Both Kaioshin and Kibito was overhyping the Z Sword from the start that made Gohan believes it.It was only when the Z Sword broke that Gohan realized the Z Sword is way too overhyped.Akira Toriyama also stated that the Z Sword was just used to seal the Elder Kaioshin by Beerus.So it should't be a super duper world greater and whatnot that Kaioshin and Kibito made them look like.Kibito who was implied to be able to give Gohan a good fight can't move it.Take training barbels for a few days for example.Sure you will get stronger arm-strength wise.But overall power ? No.You can't probably beat some trained folks.

Gohan getting significantly stronger just by swing a sword a 1 day will be more ridiculous that Freeza/Tagoma's training gains in ROF.

Since this isn't the right place to discuss this.If you want to reply either create a new thread or go to thisThread

[worrior_v1]

I don't see how that implies that Gohan got way stronger.It just means that he got used to the z sword and his arm strength has increased.It's like being a bodybuilder.Goku is probably used to weights because he trained on the afterlife with it (see the 40 tons thingy).

Where did vegeta state that?

Was it after they came out of ROSAT?

Before they went inside.

Spoiler:

Minute: 21

Vegeta: "We're already close to the limit of our strength. To be honest, no matter how much more we keep training, we only have very slight room for growth."
Goku: "What're you sayin'? There's that Monaka guy Beerus called the strongest he had fought. Even if we can only grow a little bit, if we don't try, we'll never close the gap between us and him!"

Significance: Apparently, Vegeta believes that he and Goku are reaching the upper-limit of their potential. No reason is given as to why.

Yep, before they went inside. Imagine what could have happened in the 3 years afterwards, considering its a long period of time, I'm fairly certain they have become far stronger.