Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

Hey guys, I know this is a heated topic, but I was trying to develop some Majin Buu numbers based on his transformations, which are complicated, so without further ado:

8.0 - Buff Buu
.... - Super Buu
4.0 - Kid Buu
3.2 - Fat Buu
.... - Evil Buu
1.6 - Good Buu

2.0 - South Kaioshin
0.4 - Dai Kaioshin

Merely multiplication based, how do you explain Super Buu being stronger than Fat Buu with Evil Buu having split from the latter? I made Good Buu the hypothetical Kid Buu with just Dai Kaioshin absorbed.

My numbers based on kid buu (Kid buu is a 15)

Kid buu = 15
SS3 goku = 14

Fat buu (pre) = 8 enraged = 10 (he can tap onto more power from kid buu's reserve when he's angered and the hold of dai kaioshin on him gets loosened)

Fat buu (post) = 8 (no kid buu's strength reserve now)

Evil buu (skinny buu) = 11 (max tapping into kid buu's power bu fat buu converted into evil buu)

Super buu = 20 (so strong that goku is unable to even fight him)

Buff buu (kid buu + fat buu) = 23

Buutenks = 45
Buuhan = 50
Buuccolo = 23
Gohan = 30
Gotenks = 25

[dbgtFO]

@Dessasina
You were not going to post the rest of the Saiyan battle?
In any case I found it cool and made my own list:
Earthlings vs the Saibamen

Spoiler:

Tenshinhan - 1,100 -> 1,500. Nappa remarked that there was more than two people with a battle power over 1,000. We already have the powers of Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo, where two of them surpassed 1,000(note that Piccolo was wearing his weighted clothing when read, so his battle power might have been below 1,000), so there might be 2 more and that would be Tenshinhan and Yamcha. Tenshinhan starts off with a power below a Saibaiman, but increases it during battle and is capable of beating the sorry houseplant, who dies at the hands of Vegeta.
Saibaiman - 1,200 -> 732 -> 0 - after losing his battle against Tenshinhan, Vegeta kills him with a vaporizing and effortless blast.

Yamcha - 1,050 -> 1,250 -> 1,480 -> 0 - Like Tenshinhan he increases his power during battle and fights evenly with the Saibaiman. His quickly charged Kamehameha weakens the runt greatly, but not enough and so Yamcha is killed off.
Saibaiman - 1,200 -> 925 -> 1,850 -> 0 - His power drops from damage against Yamcha, and then increases 2 times to kill him through suicide.

Krillin - 1,083 -> 1,770 - enraged by Yamcha's death, he doesn't hold back on his power and unleashes his full power blast, which is more than halfway towards double the amount (~1.6)
Saibaman (3) - 1,200 -> 0 - most of them get killed by Krillin's attack, which targeted the Saiyans as well, although there was one left to be killed by Piccolo.

Piccolo - 1,220 -> 1,830 - Piccolo uses a mouth blast with 1.5 times his battle power, which isn't close to full yet. The Saibaman gets killed in the process.
Saibaman - 1,200 -> 0 - this is self explanatory. His power is lower than Piccolo's even before the mouth blast, which is from his suppressed state.

Earthlings vs Nappa

Spoiler:

Nappa - 2,000 -> 4,000 - Nappa and Vegeta easily tank Krillin's blast and then Nappa reveals even greater power, powering up to his official level of 4,000.

Chaozu - 610 -> 1,220 - Chaozu is the weakest of the group and so the power of his selfdestruct is pitiful as well.

Piccolo - 1,600 -> 2,000 - catching Nappa off-guard, Piccolo summons up all his power and after Gohan chickens out has to fire a quickly charged 2 handed Makankossapo(?).
Krillin - 1,083 -> 1,300 - following on from Piccolo's example, Krillin tries his utmost best, but must see his attack dodged by the recovering Nappa.

Tenshinhan - 1,500 -> 1,200 -> 915 -> 1,830 -> 0 - getting his arm punched off and beaten by Nappa greatly reduces his power in just two hits! His Kikoho is not as strong, as it could have been though and he dies after having used up his ki.
Nappa - 4,000 -> 3,999 -> 3,990 - Chaozu's suicide attack did nothing to damage Nappa, but he did take very slight damage from the off-guard hits Piccolo and Krillin landed and then the Kikoho had a slightly greater effect.

Krillin 1,083 -> 1,770 -> 1 - Krillin caught Nappa off-guard and then gathered all his power, but now in the shape of a very sharp disc, which Nappa dodges at the last moment, Nappa retaliates by immobilizing Krillin.
Piccolo - 1,600 -> 1 -> 1,400 -> 0 - Nappa one shot Piccolo, who thought their tails would be a weakness like it was with Raditz, however it wasn't and he was knocked out, until he awoke again, but then died shortly after, protecting Gohan.
Nappa - 2,000 -> 1,999 -> 3,500 -> 3,000 - After 3 hours of boredom, Nappa is now rested, but decides not to power-up. He only takes damage, when Gohan kicks him into the mountain and thus as revenge powers up the blast, that takes Piccolo's life, before having to smack away Gohan's 2,800 Masenko.
Gohan - 981 -> 1,805 -> 2,800 -> 700 - Back against Raditz, Gohan powered up from 710 to 1,307, an increase of 1.84x. Thus here it's the same gap. After firing his Masenko, Gohan's power decreases drastically.

Goku vs Nappa

Spoiler:

Goku - 5,000 -> 8,010 -> 8,500 -> 8,010 -> 16,020 - over 8,000! And double that with Kaio-ken.
Nappa - 3,000 -> 4,000 -> 7,500 -> 8,400 -> 7,500 -> 1 -> 0 - Nappa first attempts to hit Goku without even powering up. He then powers up, but is still no match, until Vegeta tells him to calm the fuck down and he does, displaying power not too far removed from Goku and almost catches him with his "I have the greatest mouth" technique. Unfortunately Goku manages to counter that close to danger and Nappa is eventually defeated by Kaio-ken Goku and put down by his merciless comrade.
Vegeta - 2,000 -> 16,100 - Vegeta finally makes his move, completely baffling Goku with his immense power.

Goku vs Vegeta

Spoiler:

Goku - 8,010 -> 16,020 - he uses Kaioken x2 to bring out power that he can control, and whatever loss in power is quickly recovered, to make things simpler.
Vegeta - 16,100 ->18,000 - after he shows the true power of a Saiyan. Even if he took hits, they were not as damaging to bring his power down, which increased to dodge KKx2.

Goku - 8,010 -> 24,030 - he uses Kaioken x3.
Vegeta - 18,000 -> 16,000 - takes damage from Kaio-ken x3 Goku.

Goku - 4,000 -> 12,000 -> 24,000 -> 32,000 -> 2,000 - he uses Kaioken x3 to match Vegeta's Galick gun, with a not fully charged Kamehameha on top of it(so 2x instead of 2.2x), but is forced to use KK x4 and takes even more damage.
Vegeta - 16,000 -> 24,000 - 12,000 - Fires off his best technique, the Galick Gun, but is overpowered and his power drops further.

Goku - 2,000 -> 4,000 -> 2,000 -> 200,000 -> 1 - Close to defeat, Goku uses one last Kaio-ken and charges a Genkidama, before Ozaru Vegeta squeezes the life out of him.
Vegeta - 12,000 -> 1,200 -> 180,000 -> 1,200 - Creating the power ball, drops his power to manageable levels even for a weakened Goku
Krillin - 541 -> 800 -> 541 -> 30 -> 2,000 -> 3 - Eating ½ a senzu only restores his power by half, obviously and so Vegeta still holds a big edge, even after getting so damaged. Goku said the Genkidama was at ½ power, but clearly that doesn't make any sense or maybe Krillin was utterly incompetent and could only form a ball out of a fraction of the energy.
Gohan - 902 -> 5-> 18,050 -> 1- Gohan, when he cuts loose. His power hadn't been fully restored, but it's enough to trouble a very damaged Vegeta. As Ozaru he completely overwhelms Vegeta.
Yajirobe - 970 - Everyone's been weakened so much that Yajirobe is the strongest hero present, unfortunately he's a coward, but he does have important interventions.

[Desassina]

Thanks for reminding me of it! I need to do Nappa's battle, after all. It's just that too many "flaws" were pointed out, despite my disgreement with them, that I didn't want to get into a slap fest. I'll continue them later. I had better leave Buu alone as well xD

[DanielSSJ]

Freeza was nowhere near that close to SSJ Goku.

120 million fits perfectly.

freeza was able to straight up fly through KHH from SS goku with his forcefield. He seemingly had the upperhand in their fight before porunga appeared. Only after he got tired, did goku completely stomp him & call him worthless opponent.

Freeza didn't fly through it. He flew around it and hit Goku while he was distracted. And Goku was never at a disadvantage in the manga's version of the fight. The best you could say is that Freeza was even with Goku, and even that is suspect.

[DanielSSJ]

Hey guys, I know this is a heated topic, but I was trying to develop some Majin Buu numbers based on his transformations, which are complicated, so without further ado:

8.0 - Buff Buu
.... - Super Buu
4.0 - Kid Buu
3.2 - Fat Buu
.... - Evil Buu
1.6 - Good Buu

2.0 - South Kaioshin
0.4 - Dai Kaioshin

Merely multiplication based, how do you explain Super Buu being stronger than Fat Buu with Evil Buu having split from the latter? I made Good Buu the hypothetical Kid Buu with just Dai Kaioshin absorbed.

If we're to assume that post-RoSaT SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, then Evil Boo should be about 8x stronger. Also, it isn't logical to multiply two character's power together. Math just doesn't work like that. For example, if Pure Boo was a 40 instead of a 4, and Dai Kaioshin was a 4 instead of a 0.4, then Good Boo would be a 160. You can't multiply abstract things like a person's strength by anouther person's strength. You can add the two together or you can multiply it by an mathmatical integer, but you can't multiply the two together. Its the same reason why "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta" doesn't work.

[apex_pretador]

Freeza was nowhere near that close to SSJ Goku.

120 million fits perfectly.

freeza was able to straight up fly through KHH from SS goku with his forcefield. He seemingly had the upperhand in their fight before porunga appeared. Only after he got tired, did goku completely stomp him & call him worthless opponent.

Freeza didn't fly through it. He flew around it and hit Goku while he was distracted. And Goku was never at a disadvantage in the manga's version of the fight. The best you could say is that Freeza was even with Goku, and even that is suspect.

Before porunga's appearance, goku got one hit on freeza , while freeza got like 6-7 hits, and he did flew against KameHameHa even if it was only for a while, and not completely.

I guess you could argue that goku was holding back, but he was enraged, to avenge krillin, and he is shown screamingly with wide-open mouth several times in the battle. Also, the hit freeza landed after flying through/around KHH was supposed to get the job done.
And this is not even including the power loss from SS goku's beatdown freeza got when he was at 50% of his power,

If we're to assume that post-RoSaT SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, then Evil Boo should be about 8x stronger

man you are putting too much stock into multipliers. Super buu can't be 8x SS gotenks, going by the performance. Gotenks SS did better against super buu than buu did against SS3 gotenks or gohan. He did MUCH better against buu than SS2 vegeta against kid buu. He did better than what cell did against SS2 gohan, better than recoome/ butta/ jeece did against goku, better than #16 did against semi-cell, and I'm sure you'd agree that none of these were even 5x gaps, let alone 8x.

[Desassina]

It isn't logical to multiply two character's power together. Math just doesn't work like that. For example, if Pure Boo was a 40 instead of a 4, and Dai Kaioshin was a 4 instead of a 0.4, then Good Boo would be a 160. You can't multiply abstract things like a person's strength by anouther person's strength. You can add the two together or you can multiply it by an mathmatical integer, but you can't multiply the two together. Its the same reason why "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta" doesn't work.

With addition, you have to make even more conditions for when Dai Kaioshin subtracts instead, even if it should be the same for Piccolo and the kids... It's confusing to say the least.

[ahill1]

- Future trunks (trunks arc) = Namek goku. Gohan flat-out said they ARE SAME, and Yadrat goku wasn't stated to have powered up this much from Namek. All Yadrat goku did was learning IT, and controlling SS transformation. He didn't train as much to increase power. His gains, IF ANY, must not be comparable to his 3 yr exceptionally hard training with piccolo & gohan.

No... Here is the quote:

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

As Herms pointed out, it doesn't have to necessarily mean that Trunks (Mecha saga) was as strong as Goku. It can means that their Ki feels the same, even more when the SSJ was just introduced in the series. Besides this, Trunks encouraged Mecha Freeza and his father to go at him at full power, something he would not do if he was not 100% sure that he could beat Mecha Freeza. Hell, he even said (at least in Viz version) he could take down Mecha Freeza in seconds. Gohan's quote doesn't have to mean Trunks = Goku.

Trunks (Mecha saga) >> Mecha Freeza >= Goku SSJ (Namek) IMO>

- Future gohan should be lower due to above argument, and future trunks was said to be about equal to F gohan pre death. I think they both must be very close to Namek goku.

See the point above. Gohan's comment doesn't have to mean Trunks = Goku, even more when it's implied a big gap between Trunks and Mecha Freeza.

- Future #17 can't be 2x one-armed gohan. 1-arm gohan was confident in beating 50% #17 and #18 at the same time without his other arm.

No, like Future #17 said, he used less than half of his power in his last fight against Gohan, not half of his power. I have #17 using 40%, so Gohan is decently above him according to my numbers. Besides this, Gohan cannot be that much above ~40% #17, even more when he was not that confident and had the feel he was going to die.

- Future trunks (android arc) can't be that close to future androids.

Yes, he can:


Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

- Kami said that even super saiyans, who can destroy freeza and still couldn't fight android 17. So it is implied that piccolo must be below Freeza.

That doesn't mean Piccolo is below Freeza, though. By this logic, Captain Ginyu should be stronger than post Nail fusion Piccolo and post-Zenkai Vegeta, because Freeza was surprised that Goku base is even above Captain Ginyu.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”


As you can see, Kuririn is still bring up Freeza in front of Goku and freaking Kamiccolo.

[DanielSSJ]

Before porunga's appearance, goku got one hit on freeza , while freeza got like 6-7 hits, and he did flew against KameHameHa even if it was only for a while, and not completely.

I guess you could argue that goku was holding back, but he was enraged, to avenge krillin, and he is shown screamingly with wide-open mouth several times in the battle. Also, the hit freeza landed after flying through/around KHH was supposed to get the job done.
And this is not even including the power loss from SS goku's beatdown freeza got when he was at 50% of his power.

Goku get's more than one hit against Freeza before that point, and even after talking a beating from Freeza, Goku still says things like "I hope that's not all you have." Anyway, I assume that Goku was holding back a bit in order to extend the fight. Sure, Goku is pissed off about Kuririn's death, but, as we see later, Goku also wants to rub it in Freeza's face that he's stronger than him now.

If we're to assume that post-RoSaT SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, then Evil Boo should be about 8x stronger

man you are putting too much stock into multipliers. Super buu can't be 8x SS gotenks, going by the performance. Gotenks SS did better against super buu than buu did against SS3 gotenks or gohan. He did MUCH better against buu than SS2 vegeta against kid buu. He did better than what cell did against SS2 gohan, better than recoome/ butta/ jeece did against goku, better than #16 did against semi-cell, and I'm sure you'd agree that none of these were even 5x gaps, let alone 8x.

[/quote]
I don't take that portion of the Boo vs. Gotenks fight all that seriously, seeing how it's a comedic gag fight. Besides, I'd assume Boo is just toying with Gotenks before he tries to kill him. Anyway, since when have I cared about power gaps?

[apex_pretador]

- Future trunks (trunks arc) = Namek goku. Gohan flat-out said they ARE SAME, and Yadrat goku wasn't stated to have powered up this much from Namek. All Yadrat goku did was learning IT, and controlling SS transformation. He didn't train as much to increase power. His gains, IF ANY, must not be comparable to his 3 yr exceptionally hard training with piccolo & gohan.

No... Here is the quote:

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

As Herms pointed out, it doesn't have to necessarily mean that Trunks (Mecha saga) was as strong as Goku. It can means that their Ki feels the same, even more when the SSJ was just introduced in the series. Besides this, Trunks encouraged Mecha Freeza and his father to go at him at full power, something he would not do if he was not 100% sure that he could beat Mecha Freeza. Hell, he even said (at least in Viz version) he could take down Mecha Freeza in seconds. Gohan's quote doesn't have to mean Trunks = Goku.

Herms' line is validating my point. The ki is "same" which means it is not just "similar". Herms pointing that out only indicates that amount isn't the only thing that is same (like say freeza vs goku), but the feeling , the lack of evilness are also same.
Gohan didn't say that goku became stronger since Namek, or am I missing something? No way can he ignore THAT MUCH change in goku's power. You are giving post Yadrat goku an increase in power comparable to the 3 years training where he trained exceptionally hard with piccolo and gohan. Yadrat goku lacked time to even learn techniques.

Trunks (Mecha saga) >> Mecha Freeza >= Goku SSJ (Namek) IMO>

Trunks (mecha saga) = Namek goku (In power, feeling of ki, arrangement of ki, lack of evilness)

- Future gohan should be lower due to above argument, and future trunks was said to be about equal to F gohan pre death. I think they both must be very close to Namek goku.

See the point above. Gohan's comment doesn't have to mean Trunks = Goku, even more when it's implied a big gap between Trunks and Mecha Freeza.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”

So, SS future trunks >>> Mecha freeza (on earth) <<< namek 100% freeza
How Namek freeza and trunks compare to each other, we have no idea.
[/quote]

- Future #17 can't be 2x one-armed gohan. 1-arm gohan was confident in beating 50% #17 and #18 at the same time without his other arm.

No, like Future #17 said, he used less than half of his power in his last fight against Gohan, not half of his power. I have #17 using 40%, so Gohan is decently above him according to my numbers. Besides this, Gohan cannot be that much above ~40% #17, even more when he was not that confident and had the feel he was going to die.
[/quote]OK.

- Future trunks (android arc) can't be that close to future androids.

Yes, he can:


Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

And before he even knew about present androids being > Future androids, he was scared to even let vegeta fight them, who was stronger than him. He was "SHOCKED'' visibly that vegeta was doing that good against the "weaker" one of the androids even before knowing that they are stronger than future androids.
Chapter: 351 (DBZ 157), P7.1
Trunks: “We absolutely can’t win unless we have Goku’s help and everyone fights together!”

So, in other words, a super saiyan significantly stronger than trunks was implied to be weak to fight androids before trunks even knew they were stronger in this timeline.

- Kami said that even super saiyans, who can destroy freeza and still couldn't fight android 17. So it is implied that piccolo must be below Freeza.

That doesn't mean Piccolo is below Freeza, though. By this logic, Captain Ginyu should be stronger than post Nail fusion Piccolo and post-Zenkai Vegeta, because Freeza was surprised that Goku base is even above Captain Ginyu.

what to say freeza said "only" goku is stronger than ginyu? He thought that ginyu was one of the strongest beings in the universe, besides himself & Cold, and he just saw four people stronger than him, so that's why he was surprised, and goku is the only one of his opponents who prefers to talk, as gohan , vegeta & piccolo prefer to get straight to point.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”


As you can see, Kuririn is still bring up Freeza in front of Goku and freaking Kamiccolo.

Yeah, which means that freeza isn't absolute joke which your numbers seem to indicate.
See how krillin brings up vegeta for comparing suppressed first form freeza, and goku gives same reaction as above. However, he doesn't bring up nappa, why? Because he's one-shot material, a joke for goku. So, freeza still has respectable power among all powerhouse Z fighters of android arc.

Before porunga's appearance, goku got one hit on freeza , while freeza got like 6-7 hits, and he did flew against KameHameHa even if it was only for a while, and not completely.

I guess you could argue that goku was holding back, but he was enraged, to avenge krillin, and he is shown screamingly with wide-open mouth several times in the battle. Also, the hit freeza landed after flying through/around KHH was supposed to get the job done.
And this is not even including the power loss from SS goku's beatdown freeza got when he was at 50% of his power.

Goku get's more than one hit against Freeza before that point, and even after talking a beating from Freeza, Goku still says things like "I hope that's not all you have." Anyway, I assume that Goku was holding back a bit in order to extend the fight. Sure, Goku is pissed off about Kuririn's death, but, as we see later, Goku also wants to rub it in Freeza's face that he's stronger than him now.

but to prove himself stronger , he wouldn't hold back. He was raging mad, had to escape the planet in 5 minutes after defeating a power comparable to his own, and prove that he is stronger.

If we're to assume that post-RoSaT SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, then Evil Boo should be about 8x stronger

man you are putting too much stock into multipliers. Super buu can't be 8x SS gotenks, going by the performance. Gotenks SS did better against super buu than buu did against SS3 gotenks or gohan. He did MUCH better against buu than SS2 vegeta against kid buu. He did better than what cell did against SS2 gohan, better than recoome/ butta/ jeece did against goku, better than #16 did against semi-cell, and I'm sure you'd agree that none of these were even 5x gaps, let alone 8x.

I don't take that portion of the Boo vs. Gotenks fight all that seriously, seeing how it's a comedic gag fight.
[/quote]Gotenks' entire character is a gag. I don't see this fight as a full-on gag fight anyways, it feels like gotenks can give a not serious super buu a lot of trouble. SS3 gotenks vs buu is more of a gag fight than SS gotenks vs buu.

Besides, I'd assume Boo is just toying with Gotenks before he tries to kill him. Anyway, since when have I cared about power gaps?

dont care about gaps? never mind then, all points are worthless.

oh wait, if you don't care about gaps, then why care about multipliers anyways?

[DanielSSJ]

Besides, I'd assume Boo is just toying with Gotenks before he tries to kill him. Anyway, since when have I cared about power gaps?

dont care about gaps? never mind then, all points are worthless.

oh wait, if you don't care about gaps, then why care about multipliers anyways?

The difference is that the power multipliers are provided by officially sanctioned supplementary material of the series. Power Gaps, aka the idea that Character A has to be _% stronger than Character B to have a certain type of victory, is a fan-created idea that is never supported anywhere. Power levels were introduced into the story, not to give any real context to the battles, but to sound impressive when bad guy# 66 spout off an impressive sounding number, and to make said bad guy look like an idiot when he ends up getting his but kicked.
I might have misspoke when I said I don't care about gaps. I do have a vaguely defined idea of how much stronger a character has to be to have a certain type of victory, but that gets muddled when you consider skill, techniques, and unique abilities and other variables like that. For example, I have SS3 Goku above Pure Boo despite Boo coming out on top, due to SS3's steep energy requirements What I don't do is run formulas like, Gohan has to be 50% stronger than Boo or Cell or whoever to crush them so easily. The only time I do take them into consideration is when lines like "I'm at about half power" or "You forced me to use 10% of my full power" get thrown around.

[apex_pretador]

Besides, I'd assume Boo is just toying with Gotenks before he tries to kill him. Anyway, since when have I cared about power gaps?

dont care about gaps? never mind then, all points are worthless.

oh wait, if you don't care about gaps, then why care about multipliers anyways?

The difference is that the power multipliers are provided by officially sanctioned supplementary material of the series. Power Gaps, aka the idea that Character A has to be _% stronger than Character B to have a certain type of victory, is a fan-created idea that is never supported anywhere. Power levels were introduced into the story, not to give any real context to the battles, but to sound impressive when bad guy# 66 spout off an impressive sounding number, and to make said bad guy look like an idiot when he ends up getting his but kicked.
I might have misspoke when I said I don't care about gaps. I do have a vaguely defined idea of how much stronger a character has to be to have a certain type of victory, but that gets muddled when you consider skill, techniques, and unique abilities and other variables like that. For example, I have SS3 Goku above Pure Boo despite Boo coming out on top, due to SS3's steep energy requirements What I don't do is run formulas like, Gohan has to be 50% stronger than Boo or Cell or whoever to crush them so easily. The only time I do take them into consideration is when lines like "I'm at about half power" or "You forced me to use 10% of my full power" get thrown around.

ok, never mind then.
but still, 8x is too much for the performance he put up against buu. If you consider his perfoemance only his ghost attack, then he himself also took it, and wasn't damaged heavily.

Anyways, never mind. Take a look at my theory on buu:

It isn't logical to multiply two character's power together. Math just doesn't work like that. For example, if Pure Boo was a 40 instead of a 4, and Dai Kaioshin was a 4 instead of a 0.4, then Good Boo would be a 160. You can't multiply abstract things like a person's strength by anouther person's strength. You can add the two together or you can multiply it by an mathmatical integer, but you can't multiply the two together. Its the same reason why "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta" doesn't work.

With addition, you have to make even more conditions for when Dai Kaioshin subtracts instead, even if it should be the same for Piccolo and the kids... It's confusing to say the least.

To solve your confusion,

I think that dai kaioshin's absorption works more like fusion, than rather than addition type. He goes to buff buu, then he fuses and forms an entirely new different being, with mind, heart, sense and both good and evil present. This is fat buu. He is extremely powerful due to incredible power of dai kaioshin, but dai kaioshin restricted a huge portion of his evilness, and his incredible power reserve of kid buu.
However, when he gets mad, dai kaioshin's hold on fat buu loosens , and fat buu becomes able to tap into the power of kid buu a bit.
So, fat buu (when he came out) was weaker than Majin vegeta and SS2 goku as they lol'd at his power. Then he gets a little serious, and taps the accessible kid buu's reserve he has, and powers up to a point that it worries goku & vegeta, and scares gohan. This is fat buu's max power without getting angry without kaoishin's hold on him loosening. Majin vegeta is able to thrash him around. They seem around the same level of power.
When fat buu powers up again even further, he is tapping into more of kid buu's power, due to his anger making the restriction of kaioshin weaker, which happens when steams come out of his head.

When fat buu gets fully mad, kaioshin's hold on his evilness breaks, but his restriction on the power of kid buu is still present. The freed evilness takes a form of skinny buu, and it is not able to access the power of kid buu due to the fact that restriction is still present.

To remove the restriction, evil buu absorbs fat buu and then becomes super buu, an incredible power, who is able to tap into 100% of kid buu's power AND the power of fat buu (the fusion of buu-material and dai-kaioshin) at the same time, and that's why he's so strong.

On buff buu, he is unrestrained kid buu with power of south kaioshin added.

Kid buu is, ....... kid buu

(Wow, I nailed it, a huge post on buu)

[DanielSSJ]

ok, never mind then.
but still, 8x is too much for the performance he put up against buu. If you consider his perfoemance only his ghost attack, then he himself also took it, and wasn't damaged heavily.

Eh. We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

Anyways, never mind. Take a look at my theory on buu:

To solve your confusion,

I think that dai kaioshin's absorption works more like fusion, than rather than addition type. He goes to buff buu, then he fuses and forms an entirely new different being, with mind, heart, sense and both good and evil present. This is fat buu. He is extremely powerful due to incredible power of dai kaioshin, but dai kaioshin restricted a huge portion of his evilness, and his incredible power reserve of kid buu.
However, when he gets mad, dai kaioshin's hold on fat buu loosens , and fat buu becomes able to tap into the power of kid buu a bit.
So, fat buu (when he came out) was weaker than Majin vegeta and SS2 goku as they lol'd at his power. Then he gets a little serious, and taps the accessible kid buu's reserve he has, and powers up to a point that it worries goku & vegeta, and scares gohan. This is fat buu's max power without getting angry without kaoishin's hold on him loosening. Majin vegeta is able to thrash him around. They seem around the same level of power.
When fat buu powers up again even further, he is tapping into more of kid buu's power, due to his anger making the restriction of kaioshin weaker, which happens when steams come out of his head.

When fat buu gets fully mad, kaioshin's hold on his evilness breaks, but his restriction on the power of kid buu is still present. The freed evilness takes a form of skinny buu, and it is not able to access the power of kid buu due to the fact that restriction is still present.

To remove the restriction, evil buu absorbs fat buu and then becomes super buu, an incredible power, who is able to tap into 100% of kid buu's power AND the power of fat buu (the fusion of buu-material and dai-kaioshin) at the same time, and that's why he's so strong.

On buff buu, he is unrestrained kid buu with power of south kaioshin added.

Kid buu is, ....... kid buu

(Wow, I nailed it, a huge post on buu)

My Majin Boo hypothesis is very similar. All Boo-on-Kaioshin absorption function like a type of fusion in my eyes. It's possible this is because of some godly element that makes the Kaioshins' effect on Boo more profound than when he absorbs other characters, or because Boo didn't have a soul when he combined with them, but I digress.

Buff Boo (aka Pure Boo + South Kaioshin) is tremendously strong in comparison to Pure Boo and is even stronger than Evil Boo, despite the fact that South Kaioshin is probably leagues weaker than any of Boo's forms. I figure that this is because he merged with the muscular and battle-oriented South Kaioshin on such a basic level.

On the other hand, absorbing the gentle natured (and obese) Grand Kaioshin effectively halved Pure Boo's strength. His kind personality (and the fact that he's higher on the godly totem pole than South Kaioshin) sealed away the majority of South Kaioshin's and Pure Boo's power. Like you said, I think anger and negative emotions allow Fat Boo to access some of that sealed-off strength, and when Boo flips out over Mr. Satan getting shot, it is this extra strength that get's split when Boo splits.

When Mr. Boo and Pure Evil Boo recombine, their energies and psyche are rearranged so that evil is in control, and with intense negative emotions and urges at the forefront of his mind, Boo is now capable of accessing a much, much larger portion of the strength that South Kaioshin provides. He can't access that power in full due to the presence of Mr. Boo, and by extension, Grand Kaioshin, in his psyche. So basically, Evil Boo is Buff Boo Lite.

As you said, Pure Boo is Pure Boo.

[Desassina]

Ok, but that's too long. I think that we can run with the idea that both Kaioshins suppressed his power, but added their traits to Majin Buu. South Kaioshin's strength and bulkiness were inherited at the expense of power, while Dai Kaioshin made him gentle with twice the amount of suppression. Super Buu is more of a fusion with a change in nature, trading his gentleness for strength, which allows his power to grow into Buff Buu's, and then Kid Buu's. Here's an example:

Kid Buu - Power: 400 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Suppression: 1

Buff Buu - Power: 320 | Strength: 32 | Agility: 20 | Suppression: 2

Super Buu - Power: 256 | Strength: 32 | Agility: 32 | Suppression: 4

I can't make this work with everything though, so it's another failed attempt.

[DanielSSJ]

Ok, but that's too long. I think that we can run with the idea that both Kaioshins suppressed his power, but added their traits to Majin Buu. South Kaioshin's strength and bulkiness were inherited at the expense of power, while Dai Kaioshin made him gentle with twice the amount of suppression. Super Buu is more of a fusion with a change in nature, trading his gentleness for strength, which allows his power to grow into Buff Buu's, and then Kid Buu's. Here's an example:

Kid Buu - Power: 400 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Suppression: 1

Buff Buu - Power: 320 | Strength: 32 | Agility: 20 | Suppression: 2

Super Buu - Power: 256 | Strength: 32 | Agility: 32 | Suppression: 4

I can't make this work with everything though, so it's another failed attempt.

Power and strength are the same thing. The point I was trying to get across was that South Kaioshin's strength and suitability for combat enhanced Boo strength. Grand Kaioshin's gentleness and obesity hindered Boo's strength(which may have been intentional on Grand Kaioshin's part, now that I think about it). Once Boo's power and psyche is rearranged with evil in the forefront, he gained access to a large portion of the strength South Kaioshin added, but not all of it. Simple as that. You don't have to find exact formula's for their different forms. If you want to see the math that I do...
- Fat Boo = 50% of Pure Boo
- Angry Fat Boo = Fat Boo x2.5
- Thin Boo = 60% of Angry Fat Boo
- Good Boo = Fat Boo = 40% Angry Fat Boo
- Evil/Super Boo = Thin Boo x5

[apex_pretador]

Ok, but that's too long. I think that we can run with the idea that both Kaioshins suppressed his power, but added their traits to Majin Buu. South Kaioshin's strength and bulkiness were inherited at the expense of power, while Dai Kaioshin made him gentle with twice the amount of suppression. Super Buu is more of a fusion with a change in nature, trading his gentleness for strength, which allows his power to grow into Buff Buu's, and then Kid Buu's. Here's an example:

Kid Buu - Power: 400 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Suppression: 1

Buff Buu - Power: 320 | Strength: 32 | Agility: 20 | Suppression: 2

Super Buu - Power: 256 | Strength: 32 | Agility: 32 | Suppression: 4

I can't make this work with everything though, so it's another failed attempt.

how come kid buu is more powerful than super buu & buff buu ?
Anyways, to keep my theory simple, I'll use numbers: (in chronological order)

Kid buu (initial, attacks the kaioshin planet):
Power = 100, reserve = 100, evilness = 50, goodness = 0, mind = 0

Buff buu (absorbs south kaioshin):
Power = 165, reserve = 100 (evil), 60 (good) , Evilness = 50, Goodness = 25, mind = 5

Fat buu (absorbs fat kaioshin):
Power = 40, reserve = 40 (good), 60 (evil, restricted) , 100 (evil, max power) , Evilness = 5, restricted = 45 , goodness = 50, mind = 20

Post split:
FAT BUU:
Power = 40, reserve = 40, evilness = 0, goodness = 50, mind = 5

Skinny buu:
Power = 60, reserve = 60 (restricted), evilness = 50, goodness = 0, mind = 25

Super buu:
Power = 140 (kid + fat), reserve = 100 (evil, from kid buu), 40 (good, from fat buu), evilness = 50, goodness = 5, restricted = 45, mind = 30

Buff buu:
(see above)

Kid buu:
(see above)

[Desassina]

I don't think power and strength are the same thing. We've had some instances where strength was enhanced by power, as Akira Toriyama has once stated. Something along the lines of the body having its limits, and that they had rather increase their power.

[Gorou]

Where it is said that energy of Kaioshin make Buu more stronger ? Dabura asserts the opposite

[dbgtFO]

Where it is said that energy of Kaioshin make Buu more stronger ? Dabura asserts the opposite

Dabra asserts no such thing.

[Gorou]

Where it is said that energy of Kaioshin make Buu more stronger ? Dabura asserts the opposite

Dabra asserts no such thing.

Dabura: "We can not use the energy of Kibith and Kaiohschin, but there are three wonderful energies on which to rely"