The problem is taking that statement to mean anything other than what it does in the context. Kaioshin and Kibito can for whatever reason not be used to revive Buu, but it says nothing about what would happen, if Buu was to absorb them like he did South Kaioshin and Great Kaioshin.Gorou wrote:Dabura: "We can not use the energy of Kibith and Kaiohschin, but there are three wonderful energies on which to rely"
Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
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DanielSSJ
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
No one said that Kaioshin energy makes Boo stronger. All I was saying was that Boo merging with Kaioshin has unpredictable side effects. Hell, if Boo ended up absorbing Kibito or Kaioshin, he'd probably inherit their ineptitude and become weaker. As far as the "Kaioshin's and Kibito's energy can't be used" it's probably based on the same principle.Gorou wrote:Where it is said that energy of Kaioshin make Buu more stronger ? Dabura asserts the opposite
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VegetaSSJBlue
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Super Power Levels!!!
Battle of Gods Arc
Resurrection F Arc
Champa Arc
Battle of Gods Arc
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
apex_pretador wrote:Herms' line is validating my point. The ki is "same" which means it is not just "similar". Herms pointing that out only indicates that amount isn't the only thing that is same (like say freeza vs goku), but the feeling , the lack of evilness are also same.ahill1 wrote:No... Here is the quote:- Future trunks (trunks arc) = Namek goku. Gohan flat-out said they ARE SAME, and Yadrat goku wasn't stated to have powered up this much from Namek. All Yadrat goku did was learning IT, and controlling SS transformation. He didn't train as much to increase power. His gains, IF ANY, must not be comparable to his 3 yr exceptionally hard training with piccolo & gohan.
Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).
As Herms pointed out, it doesn't have to necessarily mean that Trunks (Mecha saga) was as strong as Goku. It can means that their Ki feels the same, even more when the SSJ was just introduced in the series. Besides this, Trunks encouraged Mecha Freeza and his father to go at him at full power, something he would not do if he was not 100% sure that he could beat Mecha Freeza. Hell, he even said (at least in Viz version) he could take down Mecha Freeza in seconds. Gohan's quote doesn't have to mean Trunks = Goku.
Gohan didn't say that goku became stronger since Namek, or am I missing something? No way can he ignore THAT MUCH change in goku's power. You are giving post Yadrat goku an increase in power comparable to the 3 years training where he trained exceptionally hard with piccolo and gohan. Yadrat goku lacked time to even learn techniques.Trunks (mecha saga) = Namek goku (In power, feeling of ki, arrangement of ki, lack of evilness)
Trunks (Mecha saga) >> Mecha Freeza >= Goku SSJ (Namek) IMO>Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7See the point above. Gohan's comment doesn't have to mean Trunks = Goku, even more when it's implied a big gap between Trunks and Mecha Freeza.- Future gohan should be lower due to above argument, and future trunks was said to be about equal to F gohan pre death. I think they both must be very close to Namek goku.
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”
So, SS future trunks >>> Mecha freeza (on earth) <<< namek 100% freeza
How Namek freeza and trunks compare to each other, we have no idea.
- Future #17 can't be 2x one-armed gohan. 1-arm gohan was confident in beating 50% #17 and #18 at the same time without his other arm.
No, like Future #17 said, he used less than half of his power in his last fight against Gohan, not half of his power. I have #17 using 40%, so Gohan is decently above him according to my numbers. Besides this, Gohan cannot be that much above ~40% #17, even more when he was not that confident and had the feel he was going to die.
[/quote]OK.
And before he even knew about present androids being > Future androids, he was scared to even let vegeta fight them, who was stronger than him. He was "SHOCKED'' visibly that vegeta was doing that good against the "weaker" one of the androids even before knowing that they are stronger than future androids.Yes, he can:- Future trunks (android arc) can't be that close to future androids.
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”
Chapter: 351 (DBZ 157), P7.1
Trunks: “We absolutely can’t win unless we have Goku’s help and everyone fights together!”
So, in other words, a super saiyan significantly stronger than trunks was implied to be weak to fight androids before trunks even knew they were stronger in this timeline.
what to say freeza said "only" goku is stronger than ginyu? He thought that ginyu was one of the strongest beings in the universe, besides himself & Cold, and he just saw four people stronger than him, so that's why he was surprised, and goku is the only one of his opponents who prefers to talk, as gohan , vegeta & piccolo prefer to get straight to point.That doesn't mean Piccolo is below Freeza, though. By this logic, Captain Ginyu should be stronger than post Nail fusion Piccolo and post-Zenkai Vegeta, because Freeza was surprised that Goku base is even above Captain Ginyu.- Kami said that even super saiyans, who can destroy freeza and still couldn't fight android 17. So it is implied that piccolo must be below Freeza.
Yeah, which means that freeza isn't absolute joke which your numbers seem to indicate.
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”
As you can see, Kuririn is still bring up Freeza in front of Goku and freaking Kamiccolo.
See how krillin brings up vegeta for comparing suppressed first form freeza, and goku gives same reaction as above. However, he doesn't bring up nappa, why? Because he's one-shot material, a joke for goku. So, freeza still has respectable power among all powerhouse Z fighters of android arc.
but to prove himself stronger , he wouldn't hold back. He was raging mad, had to escape the planet in 5 minutes after defeating a power comparable to his own, and prove that he is stronger.DanielSSJ wrote:Goku get's more than one hit against Freeza before that point, and even after talking a beating from Freeza, Goku still says things like "I hope that's not all you have." Anyway, I assume that Goku was holding back a bit in order to extend the fight. Sure, Goku is pissed off about Kuririn's death, but, as we see later, Goku also wants to rub it in Freeza's face that he's stronger than him now.apex_pretador wrote: Before porunga's appearance, goku got one hit on freeza , while freeza got like 6-7 hits, and he did flew against KameHameHa even if it was only for a while, and not completely.
I guess you could argue that goku was holding back, but he was enraged, to avenge krillin, and he is shown screamingly with wide-open mouth several times in the battle. Also, the hit freeza landed after flying through/around KHH was supposed to get the job done.
And this is not even including the power loss from SS goku's beatdown freeza got when he was at 50% of his power.
I don't take that portion of the Boo vs. Gotenks fight all that seriously, seeing how it's a comedic gag fight.man you are putting too much stock into multipliers. Super buu can't be 8x SS gotenks, going by the performance. Gotenks SS did better against super buu than buu did against SS3 gotenks or gohan. He did MUCH better against buu than SS2 vegeta against kid buu. He did better than what cell did against SS2 gohan, better than recoome/ butta/ jeece did against goku, better than #16 did against semi-cell, and I'm sure you'd agree that none of these were even 5x gaps, let alone 8x.DanielSSJ wrote:If we're to assume that post-RoSaT SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, then Evil Boo should be about 8x stronger
[/quote]Gotenks' entire character is a gag. I don't see this fight as a full-on gag fight anyways, it feels like gotenks can give a not serious super buu a lot of trouble. SS3 gotenks vs buu is more of a gag fight than SS gotenks vs buu.
dont care about gaps? never mind then, all points are worthless.Besides, I'd assume Boo is just toying with Gotenks before he tries to kill him. Anyway, since when have I cared about power gaps?
oh wait, if you don't care about gaps, then why care about multipliers anyways?
[/quote]No, Herms doesn't validate your point in any way lol. Herms pointed out that Gohan's speech doesn't have to mean that Trunks was as strong as Goku. It could just mean their ki feel the same, even more when SSJ was just introduced.
Super Saiyans weren't common, so it's understandable as for why Gohan thought it might've been Goku. It's the only time he sensed one.
When Goku was finding a new Namek, he had to search for beings with the "same" ki as Piccolo, even though we know none of them are on his level. Again, Gohan's quote on Goku doesn't have to necessarily mean he was close to Goku.
The quote you posted only proves that the Androids are above Trunks, not that they are far above. Not to mention Trunks still did not know his father was that strong. He only realized that once he saw him fighting those Cyborgs. I think Trunks, like with Yardrat Goku, has underestimated Vegeta a little here.
He probably first thought Yardrat Goku = himself, but he ended up being > Himself
He probably first thought Vegeta was = himself, but he ended up being > Himself
But even if Trunks = future 18 and Vegeta = future 17, they would most likely still end up losing. What it does imply, however, is that they all cannot be much below the future duo (since ganging up would work), which goes hand in hand with Trunks being able to fight them fairly well.
But Freeza is actually a total joke, what makes your point moot IMO. A stronger Trunks than that which could defeat Mecha Freeza in seconds was a total joke for the present Androids, so Freeza would be nothing more than mere fodder. Kami still bringing up Freeza doesn't mean he is still relevant, unless you think Ginyu is still relevant in the Freeza vs Goku fight, when even Gohan is already way stronger than him. Hell, Tao Pai Pai's defeat was brought up in the 22nd Budokai, even so he was a total trash to the likes of Tenshinhan and Muten Roshi. What a joke.
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apex_pretador
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
probably they can't use god ki?Gorou wrote:Dabura: "We can not use the energy of Kibith and Kaiohschin, but there are three wonderful energies on which to rely"dbgtFO wrote:Dabra asserts no such thing.Gorou wrote:Where it is said that energy of Kaioshin make Buu more stronger ? Dabura asserts the opposite
@ahill1 please organize your quotes, it is hard to understand
VegetaSSJBlue wrote:Super Power Levels!!!
Battle of Gods Arc
Resurrection F ArcSpoiler:
Champa ArcSpoiler:
Spoiler:
Interesting, you put humans on ginyu force tiers.
However, roshi is too high. Even on Namek, many freeza soldiers were below 1000, like the ones krillin encountered initially. Freeza also said most of his current army is trash. So, I guess you could lower roshi a bit.
Shisami can be stronger, upto ginyu force level. He wasn't compared to dodoria / zarbon, & sorbet thought that even after tagoma's training, shisami is strongest soldier.
Goku (base) wasn't noted to get weaker since RoF in U6 arc, so I can't understand why did you put him so low & introduced this "SBG" thing. If it is even a thing, why didn't goku use it against frost? Why did no one comment on goku's power being thousands of times weaker than RoF? If this was a thing, I guess krillin would've commented that goku, even as a SS, isn't as strong as he was against freeza , in base.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
What do you guys think on my planned list for Cell Games ? Any feedbacks would be appreciated.
Perfect Cell
--- Against Goku/Gohan : 2,800,000,000
--- Full Power : 4,000,000,000
--- Super Perfect : 8,000,000,000
Gohan
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 3,500,000,000
--- Super Saiyan 2 : 7,000,000,000
--- Enraged Super Saiyan 2 : 8,000,000,000
Goku
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 2,500,000,000
Cell Juniors
--- 2,000,000,000
Vegeta :
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 1,850,000,000
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DanielSSJ
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
The numbers seem fine to me. What are your levels for the Vegeta and Trunks vs Cell part?SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:What do you guys think on my planned list for Cell Games ? Any feedbacks would be appreciated.
Perfect Cell
--- Against Goku/Gohan : 2,800,000,000
--- Full Power : 4,000,000,000
--- Super Perfect : 8,000,000,000
Gohan
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 3,500,000,000
--- Super Saiyan 2 : 7,000,000,000
--- Enraged Super Saiyan 2 : 8,000,000,000
Goku
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 2,500,000,000
Cell Juniors
--- 2,000,000,000
Vegeta :
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 1,850,000,000
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apex_pretador
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:What do you guys think on my planned list for Cell Games ? Any feedbacks would be appreciated.
Perfect Cell
--- Against Goku/Gohan : 2,800,000,000
--- Full Power : 4,000,000,000
--- Super Perfect : 8,000,000,000
Gohan
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 3,500,000,000
--- Super Saiyan 2 : 7,000,000,000
--- Enraged Super Saiyan 2 : 8,000,000,000
Goku
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 2,500,000,000
Cell Juniors
--- 2,000,000,000
Vegeta :
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 1,850,000,000
Cell (Perfect, full power) must be stronger than where you put him, (gohan seems too close to him) and I think that the gap between goku & gohan is too big.
Also, (up for personal interpretation) I don't think that SPC must be stronger than SS2 gohan.
Last edited by apex_pretador on Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
DanielSSJ : I will post it later.
apex_predator : Both suppressed Cell and Goku are absolute garbage compared to Gohan in my opinion.
Cell used his true speed against Gohan.Yet Gohan can still keep up with him which led me to believe that Gohan isn't that much weaker than Full Power Cell.
apex_predator : Both suppressed Cell and Goku are absolute garbage compared to Gohan in my opinion.
Cell used his true speed against Gohan.Yet Gohan can still keep up with him which led me to believe that Gohan isn't that much weaker than Full Power Cell.
After Cell used his true speed and attacks Gohan.Cell's attacks didn't even do a damn thing to him.Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”
The time where Gohan decides to fight back.He kicked Cell in the face which knocked him down for a few seconds and leaves him bleeding on the floor.Through all of this.The Cell that fought Gohan was the same as the Cell that fought Goku.Though just way higher speed.Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”
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apex_pretador
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Just because cell's hits don't hurt him enough to make his ki drop doesn't mean he's massively superior. I agree that he's superior, but Nappa was also not fazed much by goku's hits.SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:DanielSSJ : I will post it later.
apex_predator : Both suppressed Cell and Goku are absolute garbage compared to Gohan in my opinion.
Spoiler:
Anyways, more importantly, on FP cell, even after seeing gohan's power, cell wanted goku to take a senzu and fight him. It means two things:
- He thinks that goku can give him a better fight than gohan, so the gap isn't as outrageous as it is seemed to be
- He can't rule out the possibility of all of them attacking him at once after goku takes a senzu. So, gohan can't be that close to full powered cell
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Nappa is a special case because of his insane durability.apex_pretador wrote:[A respond to my post]
- Cell probably just wanted for Goku to fight him again because Gohan just don't want to fight and does nothing.
- The gap between Full Power Perfect Cell in my list is too big that Cell can speedblitz Goku and knock him out.So even if all of them will attack Cell.All of them except for Gohan will get instantly K.O'd.
Though i could possibly downgrade Gohan to 3,250,000,000.But i'm still more inclined to have him at 3.5 Billiion.
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apex_pretador
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Nappa's "insane" durability was gone when piccolo's desperate blast made him mad. Anyways, not to go O/T,SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:Nappa is a special case because of his insane durability.apex_pretador wrote:[A respond to my post]
Cell wants to make Gohan angry for a better fight.But could also be so Gohan can finally have a reason to fight him.When Gohan wasn't angry,almost all the time,he does nothing but stand around.
- Cell probably just wanted for Goku to fight him again because Gohan just don't want to fight and does nothing.
- The gap between Full Power Perfect Cell in my list is too big that Cell can speedblitz Goku and knock him out.So even if all of them will attack Cell.All of them except for Gohan will get instantly K.O'd.
Though i could possibly downgrade Gohan to 3,250,000,000.
gohan did fight back a little bit.
3.25 B seems better than 3.5 B for gohan IMO.
(On a side note , you really have huge numbers for these guys. I don't even have Majin vegeta above 2.5 billion.)
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
I don't want to start another headache Nappa debate,so i'll pass that one.apex_pretador wrote:[Another respond to my post]
The only time Gohan fought back if i remember correctly was when he kicked Cell in the face.Which knocked him out and made him bleed.Other than that,all he does is either dodging Cell's attacks or getting himself punched.
I don't really think i have them so high.In fact,i've been nerfing some characters lately.I''ll post my list for the Trunks,Android and Cell Arc later.
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Gohan seems a bit to close to FP Cell.SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:What do you guys think on my planned list for Cell Games ? Any feedbacks would be appreciated.
Perfect Cell
--- Against Goku/Gohan : 2,800,000,000
--- Full Power : 4,000,000,000
--- Super Perfect : 8,000,000,000
Gohan
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 3,500,000,000
--- Super Saiyan 2 : 7,000,000,000
--- Enraged Super Saiyan 2 : 8,000,000,000
Goku
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 2,500,000,000
Cell Juniors
--- 2,000,000,000
Vegeta :
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 1,850,000,000
I also always follow D7 statement that the Juniors were equal to Vegeta and Trunks but meh.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
The Daizenshuu also stated the Cell Juniors are equal to Perfect Cell and stronger than Vegeta.Zombie wrote:Gohan seems a bit to close to FP Cell.SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:What do you guys think on my planned list for Cell Games ? Any feedbacks would be appreciated.
Perfect Cell
--- Against Goku/Gohan : 2,800,000,000
--- Full Power : 4,000,000,000
--- Super Perfect : 8,000,000,000
Gohan
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 3,500,000,000
--- Super Saiyan 2 : 7,000,000,000
--- Enraged Super Saiyan 2 : 8,000,000,000
Goku
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 2,500,000,000
Cell Juniors
--- 2,000,000,000
Vegeta :
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 1,850,000,000
I also always follow D7 statement that the Juniors were equal to Vegeta and Trunks but meh.
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
I can't find any of that, can you give me the quotes?
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
http://web.archive.org/web/201111031701 ... _hist#linkZombie wrote:I can't find any of that, can you give me the quotes?
http://web.archive.org/web/201111031808 ... h_cell_jrs
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
I suppose that settles it. Thanks to both.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
The entry that says their power is equal to Cell is very questionable I must say. Unless it's referring to the level Cell used against Goku, I don't think it's possible considering Gohan couldn't kill Cell in one hit like he did the Juniors. I'd say D2's entry makes the most sense.