Which Super Saiyan form did Gohan use against Dabra?

[Nejishiki]

If it's any help to the discussion, I'd like to mention that the official color manga is consistent with Gohan's aura just as Toriyama had been.

The FC manga probably won't convince anyone who didn't already believe that Gohan was only a regular Super Saiyan. While the colors are fantastic and (relatively) consistent, they weren't colored by Toriyama himself and sometimes differ from the colors he did use. And really, even if we lived in a world where Toriyama colored the Dragon Ball manga from start to finish, you'd have people saying he forgot to add the lightning. It would be the exact same argument.

So exact that they even showcase him with a Super Saiyan 2 aura when he shoots a ki blast at Boo's pod and he immediately reverts back to a Super Saiyan 1 aura as he runs his dialogue of hoping he can maintain his anger.

That wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 aura. This goes back to the relative consistency issue I mentioned above, but sometimes when auras are "rough" or "fierce" Shueisha would outline them in yellow. It was a nice visual effect.

Spoiler:

Very well, I can live with that being a case of "consistent ferocity" now that there is evidence you don't need to be Super Saiyan 2 to exhibit those traits. I still do feel that Shueisha has no trouble discerning what form Gohan is using and alongside Akira's post exploring the character deeper with his in-universe actions, it's sufficient evidence Toriyama wasn't being forgetful and purposely portrayed Goku and Vegeta as proper Super Saiyan 2 while making Gohan less intense within the same chapters.

[Son_Gohan]

Spoiler:

First of all, there was no indication that he couldn't beat Yakon in his base form. From what we saw he was comparable to Yakon, if not better. While you could say that this is my interpretation of the scene Goku had dodged three of Yakons moves. Two were done in complete darkness and Goku even managed to land a blow on Yakon. Goku, from what we saw, had the upper hand. Secondly. Gohan said that if he joined in Goku would not need to go SSJ. And as I stated before two base Saiyan's are nowhere near the strength of a single SSJ. So it is evident, even if we assume Goku was the weaker fighter between him and Yakon, that SSJ Goku would not need his full power to deal with Yakon given two base Saiyans would be able to handle him according to Gohan. And third, when has Goku not held back his full power when he is trying to conserve his energy for future battles? Goku fought against the Ginyu force while suppressing his battle power almost constantly. He fought against Freeza at the start while suppressing and he also fought against Cell while suppressing until he got serious. In the majority of fights if he been forced to use his full power for whatever reason then he has almost always held back. Even against Tenshinhan in the Tenkaichi Budokai he stated he wasn't giving it his all and was merely fighting at his tournament level power rather than his battle level power.

Would it not depend on how much energy he is suppressing for him to lack his aura entirely? Gohan has an aura just before Boo was going to be released. But he still powers up further? And why do you assume he wasn't just suppressing but allowing his aura to come out to light the area? I would imagine that it is possible for a Saiyan to be suppressed but still allow their aura to spill out because their aura spills out at much lower levels when they are in battle. In this scenario it would be the reason why Goku would have an aura while still being suppressed.

I'm sorry. But Gohan was struggling against Dabra even though they were fairly even. If Gohan was SSJ2 and struggling/"fighting evenly" against Dabra there is no way he isn't going to take damage from that magic attack unless Dabra fired a weak blast just to toy with Gohan. A character can't be even/losing to another and still be physically superior. That simply doesn't work. And you're saying that anybody below SSJ1 should be hurt by Cell's attacks. Anybody remotely even or slightly above Cell should still be hurt by Cell's attacks unless Cell is purposely holding back. It's the exact same as Dabra. Essentially it would look something like this:

Gohan(SSJ1 or SSJ2 depending on which you believe)
Attack: 100
Defence: 100

Dabura
Attack: 105
Defence: 105

Gohan hits Dabura
Dabura takes some damage.
Dabura hits Gohan.
Gohan takes some damage.
Dabura launches a magic blast.
Gohan should take damage but doesn't?

^How does this work exactly?

Why? Scouters have been constantly wrong since the start of the Saiyan Saga. Why can't it be wrong? In actuality it was correct in that Goku is superior to Yakon. But we as the audience knew that. The only reason for it was so that the enemies would underestimate the Saiyan's further. There was actually no need for this new measurement system if you think about it because even if Goku was at full power as a SSJ he still had SSJ2 so any words Dabra or whoever else had on Goku's Kiri level would be useless anyway as that isn't even the strongest Goku could get.

You're only creating a paradox. If the reader was intended to believe that Goku could defeat Yakon without Super Saiyan than he would've done just that, whether alone or with Gohan's assistance. When he chooses the option of literally giving away his energy and using forms even above Super Saiyan, than this notion of energy consumption and suppression becomes completely irrelevant... Goku is doing the exact OPPOSITE of what you are trying to argue. What we've established is that your viewpoint is based on what you personally believe Goku would think and do, which does not happen to correlate with what his actions are actually shown to be.

Gohan is struggling with Dabura due to a lack of battle experience, he already demonstrates to possess a significant power advantage to be able to tank Dabura's attacks. It exemplifies the very point Vegeta brought up on Namek, dismissing Krillin's suggestion that they make Gohan immortal: that he had the power, but not the battle experience to be able to defeat Freeza. We get to see that principle manifest itself in the story against Dabura. The bottom line is, Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 has been shown to be able to tank a shot from Full-Power Perfect Cell; while Super Saiyan 1 Gohan cannot tank a shot from any form of Perfect Cell. So whatever way you look at Super Saiyan 2 is the only possible option that would've allowed him to tank Dabura's attack.

When a scouter has been wrong, it's been demonstrated to be wrong for the reader. We are provided no basis to believe the kiri reading was inaccurate.

[Gorou]

Some of you can tell me, with accuracy, where, in Daizenshuu 2, it is indicates that Gohan was only SSJ against Dabura?

[Duo]

Some of you can tell me, with accuracy, where, in Daizenshuu 2, it is indicates that Gohan was only SSJ against Dabura?

If I'm not mistaken, that Daizenshuu claims Gohan was Ssj2. Most of us here are claiming that the Daizenshuu was wrong.

I've been meaning to get back to Ash57, but with everything that mounted since the last reply, I'd just as soon wait until he puts something more forth.

[Kamiccolo9]

Some of you can tell me, with accuracy, where, in Daizenshuu 2, it is indicates that Gohan was only SSJ against Dabura?

If I'm not mistaken, that Daizenshuu claims Gohan was Ssj2. Most of us here are claiming that the Daizenshuu was wrong.

I've been meaning to get back to Ash57, but with everything that mounted since the last reply, I'd just as soon wait until he puts something more forth.

Daizenshuu 7 indicates that he was a SSJ2. Daizenshuu 2 implies otherwise by not listing that the form was used in the chapter concerning Dabura's fight with Gohan, or something like that. It's a contradiction by omission, not a direct rebuttal or anything.

[Gorou]

If I'm not mistaken, that Daizenshuu claims Gohan was Ssj2. Most of us here are claiming that the Daizenshuu was wrong.

I've been meaning to get back to Ash57, but with everything that mounted since the last reply, I'd just as soon wait until he puts something more forth.

Yes, Daizenshuu 7 supports this, but I heard that Daizenshuu 2 indicated the opposite thing, and I would like have a confirm.

Some of you can tell me, with accuracy, where, in Daizenshuu 2, it is indicates that Gohan was only SSJ against Dabura?

If I'm not mistaken, that Daizenshuu claims Gohan was Ssj2. Most of us here are claiming that the Daizenshuu was wrong.

I've been meaning to get back to Ash57, but with everything that mounted since the last reply, I'd just as soon wait until he puts something more forth.

Daizenshuu 7 indicates that he was a SSJ2. Daizenshuu 2 implies otherwise by not listing that the form was used in the chapter concerning Dabura's fight with Gohan, or something like that. It's a contradiction by omission, not a direct rebuttal or anything.

Thank you. However, the graphical inconsistency is evident, because is designed like a SSJ (ki less jagged at the edges, electric shocks absent etc.)

[Akira]

Back in nineteen eighty-something, when I was a mere lad in elementary school (the first grade I believe), we had this test we had to take and pass. It contained a list of statements. Underneath each statement, there were two words, "Opinion" and "Fact". Can you believe that they expected us to read each statement, determine which kind of statement each was, and circle the corresponding statement type? They were fairly radical in their thinking back then, asking so much of children barely the age of six years old. I know that is incredibly hard to believe that they demanded such fundamentally difficult assignments from us, but it is true, nonetheless.

Somewhere along the line, the public education system switched to a focus on individualism, equality, and "everybody is special" core concepts. None of it a bad idea in theory, yet tests like the ones I experienced disappeared (or so I assume..) Everyone matters, and everyone has opinions, and those opinions are valid because you (Not you specifically, "you" in general) happen to have them. My theory on this is they wanted kids to not develop self esteem issues, or to feel bad because someone else got better grades, or were bullied, or had hormonal emotional breakdowns/outbursts, were not athletes, or good with numbers, or whatever...

Yet, somehow the lines blurred, and "Validated Opinions" somehow became equated just as important as "Factual evidence" in the eyes of students and people everywhere. If I say the sky is blue, and you say the sky is purple in the modern day, well, we're both equally right, simply because we think it. (Back in my day, the guy who claimed the sky was purple was only equally correct if he was color-blind.)

Then came the advent of the internet, the "world wide web", the "information superhighway", more like the "virtual soapbox of anonymity". Nowadays, with all things equal, despite factual basis, all opinions are valid, or even more correct than factually supported statements based on "likes" or the number of outspoken individuals who support the notion. Search around, every blog, Youtube channel, and pseudo-journalistic article has its very own "add your commentary" section at the bottom. The click-bait pages even have them, that way they instigate multiple "hits" from people coming back again and again to keep the arguments, trolling and conflicting validated opinions in opposition to one another. Then you have dedicated message boards for every facet of pop-culture interest imaginable. Hubs of activity for individuals of common interest to congregate.

Very few are as well moderated, fair, and organized as this one. Almost entirely populated by the best and brightest of this particular fanbase, with the bad apples gathered up and shoveled out so that the baskets of good apples can shine. A true oddity, a rare occurrence in the age of evolved internet involvement, the time of social media dominance and handheld devices that can connect you on the go, we still have a place to discuss and enjoy a fictional story without fear of the general fanbase out there that makes me dread mentioning that I am a fan to many people.

Example: (A guy at work found out I liked Dragonball from two other co-workers and started in on me about Broly being the most powerful character in the series, and how he knows he could beat Beerus, and that the next arc of Super will feature a fight between the two. So yeeeeeaahh....even though there are two guys at work that are cool to talk to about it, most people really aren't cool to talk to about it. Same guy also said Broly was strongest "In the original Mahn-gek-ha" too and that Toriyama said so in an interview.. When he finally came up for air, giving me a moment to respond, I simply said I owned all fourty-two volumes and his favorite guy and all his maximum power (a reference lost on him) was nowhere to be found. He told me I was wrong and I just said okay and walked away. A facepalm doesn't even begin to cover it for a lot of people out there claiming to be fans.)

Let's try to remember where we are, who we are, and have some factual, interesting discussions, without it devolving into an insult-fest. This thread isn't there yet, but we're starting to get to what I call "The big quote breakdown" where we're trying to point-counter point everything someone else said. That sometimes leads us down a bad path where people start getting strikes.

Let's not let yet another Gohan debate turn into a mess like various other debates do. You can tell the Buu Saga was wearing Mr. Toriyama thin at the end of his original run way back when, as it seems to spur more debates and internet fights than any other saga in his entire manga series. At the end of the day, we're here to relax, have fun and enjoy one of our many hobbies with others who share it. Let's not forget that.

Thanks for reading, I hope you enjoyed my...whatever you want to call this post. I was thinking of you, my fellow fans, as I wrote it.

Oh yeah, and on a final note, back in my day, we knew for a fact that the word "of" absolutely was not shorthand for the word "have".

[Hugo Boss]

Great post, Akira! We should remember this is supposed to be a fun discussion. We have preconceptions, really, and this is a great opportunity to test them. Resilience is a virtue.

When even a guidebook is self contradictory about this topic, it's easy to understand different opinions.

[Akira]

Thanks man,

A logical assumption is that the manga version of the story supersedes any contradictory evidence elsewhere, be it the animated version, movies, guidebooks, or newer conflicting materials. The justification being that it was the original creative work and source material for everything else. That is what I choose to go by when I am unsure of something. Everything else is added as extra layers of information, so long as it does not contradict the original source material, it can be accepted as further explanation. Not everyone is going to agree with that sequence of analysis for this franchise, but that is how I go about drawing my conclusions to questions that come up.

That first statement is, of course, an opinion statement by me, but backed by a factual statement as my justification.

[buutenks]

I believe gohan tried to go ssj2 and did but was incomplete due to kibito not restoring gohan's full power.

Here is my take:

FP Perfect Cell=20
FP kid gohan=15
FP adult ssj gohan=13
Dabura=20
ssj2 gohan=26(when trasnformed at the tournament)
ssj2 gohan(energy not fully restored by kibito)=19

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kibito restored him to full-power.

Gohan later ate a senzu and his form didn't change one bit when he transformed. Energy or lack thereof wasn't the issue.

[Ash57]

Akira, not trying to insult you or something, but you're working under the assumption that Gohan was not using his Super Saiyan 2 so he wouldn't look weak\wouldn't disappoint his father by going all-out against Dabura so soon, but that is not implied or stated. I think that Vegeta would realize something by studying Gohan, or at least Toriyama would leave hints.

Duo, i'm looking forward to continue this debate.

EDIT: I decided to edit this and put here why Vegeta didn't mean skills, but power.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

Right after Vegeta says that Gohan was far, far better before, Kaioshin says:
"No, EVEN SO, this is magnificent energy".
Even if Gohan slacked off, he still had a magnificent power. Which means that they were talking about his power, not only his skills.

[Deathbringer]

So if he was SSJ1 and was finding it hard to go SSJ2 because couldn't get angry enough does that mean that Gohan can only become a SSJ2 when he's angry?

[Akira]

Ash,

No offense taken at all, I think the confusion lies in me not explaining the part I was referring to. You're using some statements from the tournament where Vegeta did speak to Gohan's power, as you correctly pointed out. I was referencing the panel during the fight with Dabura where Vegeta and Goku are commenting on Gohan's performance mid-fight. His skills and battle sense had deteriorated to the point that he wasn't aware of how poorly he was doing, or the sloppy mistakes he was making that were allowing Dabura to dominate the fight. It seems to me that he didn't use Super Saiyan 2, simply because he was so rusty, he didn't even realize that he was getting neck deep in a situation where he really needed to.

I sometimes have so many thoughts and things running through my head, that they jump around on me while I am typing, and some points don't get fully fleshed out as a result. My previous comments were meant to outline some additional factors or potential motivations/states of mind, thought processes the characters were going through during that part of the story. I got sidetracked on getting all those related thoughts out that I forgot to tie it all back together.

Gohan's positive feelings towards Videl were a distraction, and also one that potentially hindered his ability to get super angry again right away. His positive feelings about his father being back for the day, and the excitement to fight again when he wasn't properly training and prepared for such a serious combat situation was working against him. There may have been an element of wanting to hold back too as the others had done before him (although I openly admit that one is a theory and an opinion statement without verification). At the height of it all, and the contributing factors, ultimately I think Gohan was just grossly unaware of how serious of a fight he was in, and didn't transform higher out of sheer ignorance of the situation. We'll never know if he would or wouldn't have figured it out, and finished the fight though. Vegeta's impatience waiting for him to get on with it and finish the job revealed the weakness Dabura and Babidi were previously unaware of. Thus, Dabura left the battleground prematurely in favor of a new strategy.

[ahill1]

I've seen some people argue that that is actually Super Saiyan 2, though I find that asinine. Gohan only mentions that he's going to go beyond the Super Saiyan after that point when against Kibito. There's no reason for such a big deal to be made about it if it was something Gohan just casually did not too long before. Not only that, but Vegeta didn't comment on Gohan's lack of power until Gohan transformed in front of Kibito.

This could imply Teen Gohan in SSJ was not that weaker than Kid Gohan SSJ like he was in SSJ2, right? Maybe Teen Gohan's SSJ2 is not all that strong due to him slacking.

[Speedster]

In my view, Gohan did turn SSJ2 against Dabra.

Reason 1 – Power scaling
Buu arc Gohan was stated to be weaker than his Cell-saga self and Dabra was stated to be above Cell. SSJ1 Cell-saga Gohan was useless against Cell, yet Gohan was about even with Dabra in the Buu arc. How can Gohan possibly compete with Dabra as SSJ1 if with it when even he were stronger he couldn’t even compete against regular Perfect Cell?

Note that Dabra IS above Cell as stated by Goku who originally said Dabra is probably around as strong as Cell BUT then when he saw him fighting against Gohan he admitted that Dabra is way stronger than he thought. Also Gohan IS weaker than he used to be in the Cell games as Vegeta flat out states that Gohan was stronger as a kid.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Reason 2 – Art: SSJ1 Vs SSJ2 hair style
Gohan has two strands of hair falling down on his face when SSJ1 (as shown during his training with Goten in chapters 426, 427 and 429). And that despite having only one strand falling while in his base.

Spoiler:

And, yes, even when he is serious during fighting he still has two strands falling on his face as SSJ1 as shown in the last panel of chapter 429.

Spoiler:

On the other hand SSJ2 Gohan, as shown when he transformed against Kibito in chapter 444, has only 1 strand of hair falling on his face.

Spoiler:

Now when he fights against Dabra in chapter 455 it is 1 (NOT 2) strands of hair that fall onto his face. That can only mean he is indeed SSJ2.

Spoiler:

Reason 3 – Art: Sparks for SSJ2/3 and other fancy auras are not always drawn during fighting.
Both SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta during their fight were not always drawn with sparks. Especially SSJ3 Goku during his fight against kid Buu.

Spoiler:

Besides Kaioken Goku was shown with that red aura around him every time, yet during his fight with 50% Freeza he was supposedly constantly using KKx10 but he was drawn completely in base without the art ever hinting on him using Kaioken.

You might say, “well but Toriyama usually shows the auras when transforming to show their glory”. Well that was redundant in this case. Toriyama showed the full glory of SSJ2 Gohan in the tournament.

Spoiler:

And actually, as a matter of fact, we do NOT get to see to the very transformation of Gohan against Dabra so there was no need for Toriyama to bother showing us the glorious SSJ2 aura. What we see is base Gohan stepping in to fight Dabra in chapter 452 and then we don't see anything from them again until the start of chapter 455 which starts with an *already* transformed Gohan fighting Dabra *while the fight was already underway*. The chapter actually starts by saying “While Mr Satan was elated about his victory, Gohan was battling Dabra”.

Reason 4- The whole anger argument means absolutely nothing
Why should the statement about him wanting to get angry be interpreted that he needed anger to turn SSJ2? That is first of all absurd given that he did it so effortlessly during the tournament and if this indeed was the case (that he couldn't turn SSJ2) it would be a major plot hole. Why not more wisely interpret it that Gohan just needed to get angry to tap into more of his SSJ2 boost or rage/latent boost? Because it supposedly goes against some random static power level multipliers that came 15 years later?

Well how about this? Very clearly the manga states that against Super Perfect Cell, Gohan had lost half of his power as a result of his injury to protect Vegeta.

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”

If SSJ2 is indeed x2 then after he had his power cut in less than half, Gohan would only be as strong as a SSJ1 and that would put him BELOW Perfect Cell (let alone Super Perfect Cell). So even by the logic of worthless multipliers, angry SSJ2 Gohan must have had an additional x2 rage boost. So his true maximum when angry as SSJ2 in the Cell games was around SSJ1x4. He could ordinarily become SSJ2 and become SSJ1x2 as per the guidebooks but he could still double that when he gets really angry.

[Akira]

Speedster, you've made some good points, backing your argument with facts (Manga scans) and clearly laid it out for everyone to see who was willing to take the time to read it. Aside from calling another point absurd, which is slightly counter-productive and combative in nature (and I believe to be the cause of some people being unwilling to move from their positions once they feel slighted) your points are very well stated and lined up in chronological order. You have succeeded in making me take another look at this. Who knows, I could be wrong. It has happened before. Good job.

[Duo]

Alright y'all, I'm gonna have to get a good nights rest because I suspect I'll be writing a novel of sorts on this subject alone. Please remember to follow Ash57 and Akira's example and #respectalways.

[ZombieVito]

Excellent post Speedster.

Another point people always bring about this matter is that Gohan somewhat hold back against Dabra.

That makes no sense, why would he? Not only are these guys trying to resurrect an evil monster that would absolutely destroy the world and possibly the entire universe but Dabra needs to die. There's no way around that.

That's the only way Piccolo and Kuririn, Gohan's second father and best friend respectively, can come back to life.

From a story and logical perspective Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2.

[Kaboom]

Sure, it would make more sense from a plot angle if Gohan were using Super Saiyan 2. But that's simply not what we're shown happening.

Any possibility of it, at least in the original manga, vanished as soon as Goku gave the demonstration I posted on the first page. He explicitly said, "this is Super Saiyan, and this is Super Saiyan 2." No uncertainty, no modifiers, no anything else.

But, soft! What light through yonder second panel breaks, like in every other confirmed instance of SS2, and is such an obvious and consistent visual attribute of the form that even DB's 8-to-12-year-old intended audience could pick up on it?

Big honkin' aura bolts.

Gohan doesn't have 'em at all against Dabra, against Boo, on the Kaioshin World, or when Videl was getting beaten up. He only has them when he's facing off against Kibito, which lo and behold is also the only time the manga directly indicates he used level 2. Coincidence? I think not.

As far as I'm concerned, there's absolutely no argument to be made about it: Gohan was only Super Saiyan 2 against Kibito, because that's the only time he was drawn as one. Plain and simple. You may as well try to argue that Vegeta was a Super Saiyan against Pui-Pui because it would "make sense," even though the most cursory glance will tell you he only used his normal form. Well the visual difference between SS1 and SS2 is no less obvious, at least in the original manga.

If Gohan's sparse usage of SS2 seems to cause plot bumps for anyone (which it really doesn't in any objective sense), then all there is to do is figure out creative explanations for it.