Which Super Saiyan form did Gohan use against Dabra?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kaboom, how would you interpret Kaioshin's statement about Kibito not being around to see how "incredibly powerful" Gohan was?

[Duo]

I can't sleep because of this thread. Unreal. This hasn't really happened to me in about a decade.

I'm going to primarily address Ash57 and Speedster. I may quote both of you back to back to indicate that I'm responding to both of you at the same time.

The following (this paragraph) is actually the last thing I typed. I spent a great deal of effort/time on this and don't think I can handle proofreading heavily without hurting my eyes. Anybody who reads or responds, please let me know about typos or grammar issues so I can fix them. I hope I can sleep after this. Also, Kaboom's post is amazing and makes me incredibly happy.

Cell was seemingly winning against Goku, but Goku thought that Gohan was capable of defeating even that. So, we have enough to deduce the basis: that Gohan is a good chunk stronger. We have enough material to work with from here:
Gohan > Goku

Compare this to:

But it's not like Gohan was twice as strong as Goku in the Cell Games. No, even Cell stated that Goku was a better challenge than Gohan was, which would not be case if Gohan was really so much stronger. No, what Goku really expected was that Gohan would get angry in the middle of the fight and perform a great power up(this is stated), big enough so Goku was almost sure that he could take out Cell. So, this implies that Super Saiyan Gohan(calm) is not that much stronger than Goku.

It is, of course, quite clear that Gohan had greater Ki can Goku. Enough to put some shock into everybody involved, and to make Cell recognize the truth of the matter. It's odd to pinpoint exactly what you're attempting to nail down, because these statements are pushing in mutually-exclusive directions.

Gohan is capable of getting a rage boost of top of his SSj2, confirmed by the manga. But the twofold multiplier is too tight, really. I prefer a 4-fold one, but this is only me, i won't use my opinion to back up my pov.

The only time it's explicitly clear that Gohan rage boosted on top of Super Saiyan 2 was when he finished Cell off.

I had never concluded previously that twofold did respect to the ferocity of the transformation, but it doesn't break the story to go with the guidebook on this one, so I defer accordingly.

This all begs the question of how Gohan's rage factors into the equation, and I'm fairly certain there isn't a clear answer. There are 3 options:

- He needed rage to reach his full power as a Super Saiyan, as well as trigger the transformation. Therefore, his power went up more than twofold from where he was when he briefly fought Cell as a Super Saiyan.
- He was tapping into the fullness of his Ki as a Super Saiyan and simply did not fight with the level of effort that reflected it, making Super Saiyan 2 a mere twofold increase.
- He also had a rage boost on top of the transformation, making his power increase more than twofold.

The second answer is the most simple, therefore the most likely to be true. We can extrapolate accordingly that, since Cell still had room to release his Ki significantly above the level he fought those two at (speed notwithstanding), Gohan had to have a pretty good lead on his father for the twofold transformation increase to make him able to take Cell apart like that. I'm not going to theorize with numbers because that's borderline useless, but I think my point gets across. It's very plausible (and in line with the artwork) that Gohan could have dropped to a level similar to Goku at the Cell Game and still fought, as a Super Saiyan, against Dabra and had those events play out as such.

As Vegeta stated, the Gohan who fought Dabura was far, far weaker than the one who fought Cell. So, i don't see how he would be able to tank any hit from Dabura, even if Dabura is as strong as the Cell who fought Goku.

I don't really get the impression that Goku would have been one-shotted by an uncharged Ki blast from Cell. Is there evidence of this?

Dabura was way stronger than he thought. so, Dabura is stronger than the Cell who fought Goku. That proves that Dabura is at least as strong as Full Power Perfect Cell(who is implied to be "way" stronger than before), considering that Cell didn't increase his power against Gohan, only his speed. As i said before, Super Perfect Cell is out of the list.

Reason 1 – Power scaling
Buu arc Gohan was stated to be weaker than his Cell-saga self and Dabra was stated to be above Cell. SSJ1 Cell-saga Gohan was useless against Cell, yet Gohan was about even with Dabra in the Buu arc. How can Gohan possibly compete with Dabra as SSJ1 if with it when even he were stronger he couldn’t even compete against regular Perfect Cell?

Note that Dabra IS above Cell as stated by Goku who originally said Dabra is probably around as strong as Cell BUT then when he saw him fighting against Gohan he admitted that Dabra is way stronger than he thought. Also Gohan IS weaker than he used to be in the Cell games as Vegeta flat out states that Gohan was stronger as a kid.

The fact Goku cites magic leads me to believe that part of his "way stronger" statement has to do with the sorts of techniques Dabra had. I'm not saying this statement is invalid, but character motivations are also necessary to consider. Dabra was looking to damage his opponents to strengthen Buu, not murder them. So even if he had a pretty big edge, he wasn't trying to kill Gohan, but sustain a fight that would lend to the restoration of Buu. This is also entirely compatible with Gohan being Super Saiyan, as well as the fact Buu's meter doesn't increase too much out of this battle.

Well, landscape destruction is not that impressive if we take in account that 2nd Form Freeza, who was a little over 1,000,000, was capable of causing earthquakes and tsunamis with his initial power, even shaking a part of Planet Namek.

True. I usually only bring up the comparison when set against feats in a similar time frame, such as Goku and Gohan powering up. If you look at Ultimate Gohan powering up, as an example, barely anything happens. Context and stuff! (I'm not in the right mind at the moment...)

Reason 2 – Art: SSJ1 Vs SSJ2 hair style
Gohan has two strands of hair falling down on his face when SSJ1 (as shown during his training with Goten in chapters 426, 427 and 429). And that despite having only one strand falling while in his base.

See: DarkPrince410's post on page 4.

Both SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta during their fight were not always drawn with sparks. Especially SSJ3 Goku during his fight against kid Buu.

But you at least see them every few panels. With Ssj3 Goku, you managed to cherry pick the only page I can find that doesn't include them in that sequence. Gohan never displays them at all, but every other sequence involving a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 in the entire manga displays them every few panels or so.

Besides Kaioken Goku was shown with that red aura around him every time, yet during his fight with 50% Freeza he was supposedly constantly using KKx10 but he was drawn completely in base without the art ever hinting on him using Kaioken.

That has never been proven to be a thing. We see him use it, aura and all, with two attacks against Freeza after going 50%. And there isn't an essential reason to believe he had an "invisible Kaio-ken" But...we don't really need to hit up this debate. My sanity can't handle it, hahaha.

I think that you misunderstood my intentions. I just wanted to present evidences of why i thought that Gohan was not a SSj, and why SSj2 made much more sense with the story. I don't want to needlessly complicate things.

Haha, I think I came off the wrong way. To me, it just complicates matters to avoid taking the aura at face value. Sorry my tone came off the wrong way, friend.

I've seen some people argue that that is actually Super Saiyan 2, though I find that asinine.

I don't think you meant it as such, but comes off a bit condescending to the opposition. Our points won't be received without respect.

I'm probably not going to address anything Akira wrote because he managed to find a way to go at the subject far more insightfully and creatively than I feel I can.

The biggest problem here is that Piccolo and Krillin were essentially dead if they didn't beat Dabura. I fully agree that he's a SSJ1 because, going by the art, it's completely obvious, but it seems to me like Toriyama just wasn't paying attention to his own story at this point.

You may not be wrong, after all...

You can tell the Buu Saga was wearing Mr. Toriyama thin at the end of his original run way back when, as it seems to spur more debates and internet fights than any other saga in his entire manga series.

There is a lot of truth to this, the more you learn about what was "behind the scenes" (or what little we know, at least).

Never really understood the whole "endangering" part. Gohan already realized his mistake of not finishing Cell like 2 mins after Goku teleported Cell away. He even says this when Cell returns. Seems kinda odd that Gohan would fallback into the same nonsense when his 9 yr old self realized how much of a mess he made playing around.

Seven years had passed, so it's hard to say exactly how he processed and considered things over that length of time.

A logical assumption is that the manga version of the story supersedes any contradictory evidence elsewhere, be it the animated version, movies, guidebooks, or newer conflicting materials. The justification being that it was the original creative work and source material for everything else. That is what I choose to go by when I am unsure of something. Everything else is added as extra layers of information, so long as it does not contradict the original source material, it can be accepted as further explanation. Not everyone is going to agree with that sequence of analysis for this franchise, but that is how I go about drawing my conclusions to questions that come up.

I also try to go about things this way, though I've almost completely rejected any use the term "canon" in terms of Dragon Ball. Still, this is a good way to sort things out.

[Saturnine]

- Gohan was clearly drawn as a SSj1
- "As strong as Cell" could be applied to Cell at the level of power Goku fought against and everything starts working like a charm.
- In fact, that's most likely what Goku meant, seeing how he had the most experience with that powerlevel of Cell, and therefore remembered it best.

[Tectorman]

-Some form of Gohan fightly evenly-ish with Dabura

-Dabura stated to be even with some form of Cell, maybe stronger

-Clearly SSJ1 Gohan not making much progress against Cell

-Gohan stated to be weaker in the Buu Saga than in the Cell Saga

How to reconcile? Easy. Gohan was never fighting all out against Cell as a SSJ1. We see multiple instances that show this. Gohan clearly tells Cell that he flat-out has no interest in fighting. After Gohan has revved up, we still see Goku thinking encouraging thoughts about how Cell still hasn't awakened Gohan's anger yet. And while the Cell Jrs. are beating up the Z-Fighters but before Gohan actually goes SSJ2, he is still noted to be increasing his ki. So as I see it:

CG SSJ Gohan (if he had cut loose)

Dabura =>= Perfect Cell =~= Buu SSJ Gohan

CG SSJ Gohan (holding back as he did)

[Hugo Boss]

I don't know if Gohan was supposed to have hidden energy in SS1. He powered-up just like Goku did, revealing what the guidebooks call (this may sound a bit redundant) Super Saiyan Full Power at full power. If you forget for a moment SS2 is labelled as a level that surpass Super Saiyan, Gohan's anger was obviously the trigger to activate the form when he fought Cell. Any increase he had as a SS1 was due to him starting his way to get mad, while needing something more meaningful to make his mind explode and stabilize the increased energy in a transformation.

Joining it with the fact that Gohan slacked and, much less cared to master said form, like Goku and Vegeta did, SS2 should be a form Gohan could only achieve if he were angry enough. Thus, I think super anger itself would not factor in his SS1 power, just activate a farther stage.

Then, you could ask me. Why did Gohan went SS1 when Spopovitch was beating Videl and went SS2 in front of Kibito? I will steal Akira's ideas a bit and say, because Goku was trying to calm him down and he went halfway the process. While he was determined to face Spopovitch after defeating Kibito, who seemingly was very strong, perhaps much more after asking Gohan to transform into Super Saiyan. It is really a problem when he could just apply the same determination when facing Dabra and saving his old friends, but it seems his love with Videl was letting him numb.

[buutenks]

ssj1 kid gohan was fighting non fp perfect cell. He did well but his lack of trying didnt help him much. Now gohan did power up and cell says that perhaps goku wasnt fully lying, aka gohan is above goku. So most likely gohan was at full power.

Plus cell was holding back, a lot apparently. Since once he powers up to full power every one craps their pants,except for gohan.

I believe FP perfect cell is so powerful he could have one-shotted ssj kid gohan.

Basically:

ssj kid gohan=100
Perfect cell=105
FP perfect cell=145
ssj2 kid gohan=250(rage boost)
SPC= 245
ssj adult gohan=80
ssj2 adult gohan= 160
Dabura=165

[Kaboom]

You know, I had a minor epiphany that may actually help reconcile some stuff.

To start, nothing's changed from what I already said about the manga side of things. Gohan's a Super Saiyan 1 at every point he transforms except against Kibito at the tournament, because that's the only time he's ever drawn as a Super Saiyan 2. Toriyama made it incredibly easy via the distinct auras in the manga for us to tell which form is which. It couldn't get more obvious unless the characters had "SS1" or "SS2" tattooed on their foreheads.

But again, that's the manga. What if it's simply different in the anime? Toriyama sure is — well, was — amazingly consistent with SS1 and SS2 back then, but Toei never has been. Maybe the lightning bolts were tricky for Toei's people to animate or something, because despite the clarity the manga offered they had a bad habit of usually omitting them when characters used Super Saiyan 2 or 3. Instead, they had a tendency to do things like use different and more intense aura lighting when a character was using level 2. Which, checking some screenshots, seems like what they did for Gohan when he fought Dabra. Plus they added a line from Goku after the fight about how Gohan was "doing his best" or something like that, and I think one or two similar comments from the narrator, none of which were present in the original manga.

So maybe that's the deal: Gohan was a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra in the manga, but the anime staff decided to portray him (in their own way) as a Super Saiyan 2 instead. Which in turn would easily explain the guidebook inconsistency. Daizenshuu #2's "Growing Up" guide is only concerned with and cites the manga, and it indicates that "High School Era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan only appeared in Volume 37. But then Daizenshuu #7's character dictionary is all-encompassing, including just about everyone from the manga, anime, and movies, and it's what says that Dabra fought evenly with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

So maybe there's not really a conflict between the books... Perhaps they're just referencing different versions of things. Gohan's bio in Volume 2 is only concerned with the manga, while Dabra's bio in Volume 7 is citing the anime.

Kaboom, how would you interpret Kaioshin's statement about Kibito not being around to see how "incredibly powerful" Gohan was?

Well, Kaioshin's not a very good judge of those things. But there's two good explanations that usually come to mind. Either...

A) He's just judging mostly by movement and what-not, since that was the only time he saw Gohan actually fight, or...

B) Gohan's power output while fighting and Kamehameha'ing as a Super Saiyan 1 was actually higher than his power output just standing around as a Super Saiyan 2. There is "only" a 2x power difference between the forms, after all.

[apex_pretador]

B) Gohan's power output while fighting and Kamehameha'ing as a Super Saiyan 1 was actually higher than his power output just standing around as a Super Saiyan 2.

This is very likely. It has been explained several times in the series that Z fighters can increase their "power output" for sudden bursts. Kaoshin himself was shocked at this, when he saw base vegeta and SS goku, that they can suddenly burst out so much power , from their reserve of energy.

[Son_Gohan]

What many people overlook about the entry in Daizenshuu 2, is that if you actually read the description under Gohan's "High School Era Super Saiyan 2" it states, "Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell."

Gohan only attempts to gain power from anger after they left the tournament. So obviously the form couldn't have only appeared in Volume 37 for them to make reference to that fact, they merely point out the form "First Appears" in Volume 37.

Kaioshin himself expresses that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the tournament which Kibito saw was not at full power. If the form is never seen again, then there was no reason to add that line at all, unless it was to act as foreshadowing for what was yet to come from Gohan. Kaioshin's later comments to Kibito reaffirms Gohan used his full power while he was dead, which a Kamehameha in Super Saiyan 1 does not represent.

[ahill1]

Gohan has two strands of hair falling down on his face when SSJ1 (as shown during his training with Goten in chapters 426, 427 and 429). And that despite having only one strand falling while in his base.

Here, SSJ Gohan had only one strand of hair:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Speedster]

Since a picture is one thousand words...what about a picture with words?

Spoiler:

Goku, in the final act of his battle against Yakon, raised his Ki in such a way that let Vegeta remark that he surpassed the Super Sayain wall aka was able to turn SSJ2.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

During that burst (of a power which was arguably on the SSJ1/SSJ2 boundary) we see that Goku’s hair spiked and his facial features became more sharp which is the way he is drawn as SSJ2. So who is to say that the SSJ1 Gohan in the tournament (the only instance he was drawn with 1 strand) was not like Goku's SSJ1/SSJ2 boundary burst against Yakon, i.e. on the verge to transform into SSJ2?

[Duo]

I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, but it is not fair or accurate to continue citing events/artwork that took place a month prior to the Tenka'ichi Budokai, when it comes to Gohan's hair. Toriyama paid very close and subtle attention to the change in the characters length of hair. Trunks is my best non-Gohan example of this, as his hair changes as well.

[Speedster]

I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, but it is not fair or accurate to continue citing events/artwork that took place a month prior to the Tenka'ichi Budokai, when it comes to Gohan's hair. Toriyama paid very close and subtle attention to the change in the characters length of hair. Trunks is my best non-Gohan example of this, as his hair changes as well.

What is fair/accurate or not to cite is not for you to decide. It is called debate for a reason and artwork consistency is a major argument especially given that the other side's sole argument is a detail in the artwork too. And no, base Gohan's hair didn't change at all since those events I am citing. Unlike Trunks'. And no matter how close attention Toriyama paid he did make mistakes as shown with SSJ2 Goku. Also the events I am citing are not even one month old but mere days/weeks before the TB (Gohan & Goten training with "the day of the tournament approaching"). Additionally if anything the artwork for SSJ1 Gohan in the TB may be such, due to Gohan being on the SSJ1/2 boundary (like Goku was briefly against Yakon - as shown in my previous post).

[Duo]

What is fair/accurate or not to cite is not for you to decide.

It's not me "deciding" for anybody. Let's maintain the respect, man. You are completely free, as an adult, to just disagree with my statement. I don't need to clarify that it's my opinion because that's a waste of words. Of course it's my opinion, obviously.

It is called debate for a reason and artwork consistency is a major argument especially given that the other side's sole argument is a detail in the artwork too. And no, base Gohan's hair didn't change at all since those events I am citing. Unlike Trunks'. And no matter how close attention Toriyama paid he did make mistakes as shown with SSJ2 Goku. Also the events I am citing are not even one month old but mere days/weeks before the TB (Gohan & Goten training with "the day of the tournament approaching"). Additionally if anything the artwork for SSJ1 Gohan in the TB may be such, due to Gohan being on the SSJ1/2 boundary (like Goku was briefly against Yakon - as shown in my previous post).

There is a subtle change in the way base Gohan's hair is drawn before the 1 month time jump from the time he speaks to Videl about the Tournament to the time the Tournament starts. It's not massive and you have to pay close attention, but these subtle changes are bound to be presented to a greater extent when Super Saiyan comes into play. Crack open the books and take a look. Otherwise I can go through the painstaking trouble of hosting images, but that would take me some time and would have to wait until later in the day regardless.

[Kaboom]

Since a picture is one thousand words...what about a picture with words?

But I already did that.

[Hugo Boss]

What many people overlook about the entry in Daizenshuu 2, is that if you actually read the description under Gohan's "High School Era Super Saiyan 2" it states, "Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell."

Gohan only attempts to gain power from anger after they left the tournament. So obviously the form couldn't have only appeared in Volume 37 for them to make reference to that fact, they merely point out the form "First Appears" in Volume 37.

It's strange, because Vegeta only comment about the lack of training when Gohan went SS2 against Kibito, while, as you said, anger was an issue later. Also, is it really referenced as "First Appears"? I thought it was a exclusive debut.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Vegeta commented on Gohan's lack of training when he came to the Capsule Corporation as well. He just didn't realize how much weaker Gohan had gotten until after he turned Super Saiyan 2.

[Kaboom]

It's strange, because Vegeta only comment about the lack of training when Gohan went SS2 against Kibito, while, as you said, anger was an issue later. Also, is it really referenced as "First Appears"? I thought it was a exclusive debut.

In that "Growing Up" section within Daizenshuu 2, the manga volume in which each character form appears is listed. In some cases the the word ikou ("and afterward") is attached to the volume number to indicate that it was also used beyond that volume, which the Kanzentai boys' translation represented with a simple "+" sign. The entry for "High School Era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan points out how he used the form against Kibito, and simply says Volume 37 without the ikou/+. Which would indicate that he only used the form in that volume at the tournament, since his fight with Dabra was in Volume 38.

[ZombieVito]

I've been thinking. Couldn't we just accept that both interpretations work and it's up to the reader to choose which one to follow?

That's the only way to end this since both stances have things going for it.

[Duo]

I've been thinking. Couldn't we just accept that both interpretations work and it's up to the reader to choose which one to follow?

That's the only way to end this since both stances have things going for it.

I appreciate the diplomatic nature of your statement, but my mind (however broken it may be) can't get past the consistent presentation of the artwork regarding the various transformations. I cannot be very easily convinced that Gohan's fight with Dabra was the one and only exception to the rule that Ssj2 and Ssj3 both display sparks during transformation and combat. The intentional presentation of the author supersedes any amount of justifications made to the contrary.