The anime and the "strongest" Boo thing...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The discussion is on a clear statement, which you think isn't accurate.

Goku said Kid Boo>All the other Boo's up to that point. It means what it says, even if it's stupid.

[Desassina]

The discussion is on a clear statement

And on the assumption that an official product is inconsistent and worthless. It's consumer entitlement to say the least. Working with it is another story though. If Goku is the same person who said that Kid Buu can be easily killed by Vegetto, and that he's more manageable without being merged, then there should be no doubts that Kid Buu is the strongest of the non-merged Buus. No twisting to fit one's agenda.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

There really isn't any twisting here, though. Goku never made it a point to distinguish the difference in Boo's when making the comparison. He said all Boos up to that point and there's absolutely no reason why he'd leave the absorbed Boos out of the comparison. The Dragon Books are a companion guide to the Anime and even that regards Kid Boo as the one with the greatest power and abilities of them all.

DBZ, like many other official products, isn't infallible; it's allowed to have mistakes. Fact of the matter is most of the fandom wouldn't give a damn about this discussion, so it says nothing about its worth at all. The story itself isn't even consistent.

[Saturnine]

The discussion is on a clear statement

And on the assumption that an official product is inconsistent and worthless. It's consumer entitlement to say the least. Working with it is another story though. If Goku is the same person who said that Kid Buu can be easily killed by Vegetto, and that he's more manageable without being merged, then there should be no doubts that Kid Buu is the strongest of the non-merged Buus. No twisting to fit one's agenda.

Yeah, but Super Buu is merged too. He's basically a fusion of Evil and Mr. Buu. Kid Buu is not merged, he is more manageable without being merged. Super Buu >>> Kid Buu. No twisting to fit one's agenda

[dragonballer]

The discussion is on a clear statement

And on the assumption that an official product is inconsistent and worthless. It's consumer entitlement to say the least. Working with it is another story though. If Goku is the same person who said that Kid Buu can be easily killed by Vegetto, and that he's more manageable without being merged, then there should be no doubts that Kid Buu is the strongest of the non-merged Buus. No twisting to fit one's agenda.

Yeah, but Super Buu is merged too. He's basically a fusion of Evil and Mr. Buu. Kid Buu is not merged, he is more manageable without being merged. Super Buu >>> Kid Buu. No twisting to fit one's agenda

guys,this about exclusively anime version. i konw super buu > kid buu in manga.

even gohan buu could be easily killed by vegetto.

i think goku said buu would be more manageable without being merged before his fight with kid buu, and then goku said the famous kid buu > all buu.

[Speedster]

the anime strange logic is like this:
ssj3 goku = kid buu >= super vegetto > gohan buu > gohan > gotenks > super buu > ssj3 goku

In the anime, kid Buu is stated to be the strongest form of Buu but even if this means stronger than Buuhan (and not just base Super Buu) it still doesn't imply AT ALL that kid Buu is comparable to Super Vegetto. Where are you actually getting this from? By assuming that the scouter scale is the same as the 1-10 Beerus' scale? That is a pretty big assumption to make don't you think? Not to mention that you also seem to assume that the scale is linear --- something that is certainly *not* the case even for the scouter scale.

i think goku said buu would be more manageable without being merged before his fight with kid buu, and then goku said the famous kid buu > all buu.

Even so that still doesn't imply that kid Buu is stronger than Vegetto. Unless I miss something below is the only reference of Goku to potara fusion and Vegetto while fighting kid Buu in the anime. There is no strength comparison between kid Buu and Vegetto (just between Buuhan and Vegetto - a comparison which we have seen on screen anyway...) and Goku's words certainly do not imply that kid Buu is stronger than Vegetto. They imply nothing.

Spoiler:

and the dbs numbers should be like this:
goku ssj3: 2
rageta: 4
ssj vegetto: 5
ssj3 vegetto: 40
beerus expected full power: 50

Even accepting the validity of the SSJ multipliers of SEG these would only be valid for the scouter scale. You can't just naturally assume that SSJ3=8*SSJ1 in a Beerus' percentile scale. It can well be just x3, so in your numbers there SSJ3 Vegetto could be a 15 instead of 40.

[apex_pretador]

Anime buutenks trashed anime goku.
Anime goku fought kid buu in one of the best Z anime fights.

Anime goku wanted to fuse with SATAN to fight buuhan.
Anime goku fought kid buu in one of the best Z anime fights.

Anime goku did not want to fight super buu.
Anime goku fought kid buu in one of the best Z anime fights.

Anime goku flat out said he can't beat buutenks alone.
Anime goku fought kid buu in one of the best Z anime fights.

And don't even bring vegetto up in the debate. Vegetto (anime) was able to fight against buuhan in BASE. \
Anime vegetto is the strongest character in all of Z.

[dragonballer]

the anime strange logic is like this:
ssj3 goku = kid buu >= super vegetto > gohan buu > gohan > gotenks > super buu > ssj3 goku

In the anime, kid Buu is stated to be the strongest form of Buu but even if this means stronger than Buuhan (and not just base Super Buu) it still doesn't imply AT ALL that kid Buu is comparable to Super Vegetto. Where are you actually getting this from? By assuming that the scouter scale is the same as the 1-10 Beerus' scale? That is a pretty big assumption to make don't you think? Not to mention that you also seem to assume that the scale is linear --- something that is certainly *not* the case even for the scouter scale.

i think goku said buu would be more manageable without being merged before his fight with kid buu, and then goku said the famous kid buu > all buu.

Even so that still doesn't imply that kid Buu is stronger than Vegetto. Unless I miss something below is the only reference of Goku to potara fusion and Vegetto while fighting kid Buu in the anime. There is no strength comparison between kid Buu and Vegetto (just between Buuhan and Vegetto - a comparison which we have seen on screen anyway...) and Goku's words certainly do not imply that kid Buu is stronger than Vegetto. They imply nothing.

Spoiler:

and the dbs numbers should be like this:
goku ssj3: 2
rageta: 4
ssj vegetto: 5
ssj3 vegetto: 40
beerus expected full power: 50

Even accepting the validity of the SSJ multipliers of SEG these would only be valid for the scouter scale. You can't just naturally assume that SSJ3=8*SSJ1 in a Beerus' percentile scale. It can well be just x3, so in your numbers there SSJ3 Vegetto could be a 15 instead of 40.

ok,maybe i am exaggerating a little with kid buu > ssj vegetto

but i will explain how i had that impression.

remember the scene where gohan buu was angered and vegetto had to stop him? well,it is only part of the fight vegetto had some trouble and he even had to power up.gohan buu released kid buu's power.

gohan buu went from weaker than base vegetto to stronger than supressed ssj vegetto just by using kid buu's power. kid buu is at least stronger than base vegetto.

i didn't get the part about power levels? could you explain more?

if beerus is using 10% of his power,than he powers up to 20% wouldn't he be twice stronger?

Anime buutenks trashed anime goku.

Anime goku fought kid buu in one of the best Z anime fights.

Anime goku wanted to fuse with SATAN to fight buuhan.
Anime goku fought kid buu in one of the best Z anime fights.

Anime goku did not want to fight super buu.
Anime goku fought kid buu in one of the best Z anime fights.

Anime goku flat out said he can't beat buutenks alone.
Anime goku fought kid buu in one of the best Z anime fights.

And don't even bring vegetto up in the debate. Vegetto (anime) was able to fight against buuhan in BASE. \
Anime vegetto is the strongest character in all of Z.

almost all of the exemples are about pre-fusion goku. post-fusion ssj goku could punch gohan in the face.

goku didn't want to fight super buu because he couldn't go beyond ssj1 at that time,i explained it in my main text.

about vegetto,see above.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, a mental projection of Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks may not be necessarily equal to Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks.

And I don't really get why Goku shouldn't be able to go Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu? Anyway, I try to justify the anime state of affairs with Goku being afraid that Super Buu would end up absorbing himself and Vegeta, so even though he's stronger he prefers to fuse to minimize the risks.

[Speedster]

ok,maybe i am exaggerating a little with kid buu > ssj vegetto

but i will explain how i had that impression.

remember the scene where gohan buu was angered and vegetto had to stop him? well,it is only part of the fight vegetto had some trouble and he even had to power up.gohan buu released kid buu's power.

gohan buu went from weaker than base vegetto to stronger than supressed ssj vegetto just by using kid buu's power. kid buu is at least stronger than base vegetto.

Buuhan’s barrier was the result of space warping and its power extends beyond Buuhan’s as it was probably carrying the pressure of those alternate dimensions that were trying to rush through the holes. It was against THAT one that Vegetto somewhat struggled against. Think of that as having water inside a glass dam. Buuhan broke a hole onto that dam and the water was about to rush out with incredible pressure and Vegetto had to put his hand there to stop and revert the flow. Well it is not exactly like that but hopefully you get the point that it is two very different feats – Vegetto’s being much harder.

DBZ episode 270, min 19-20
Context: Dende explaining to Mr Satan the danger of Buuhan’s actions.
There was a time when Majin Buu was sealed up in the Room of Spirit and Time. Mad with anger, Majin Buu used his power to break through the wall between dimensions, and then came out. Look at this, if you would [pointing out to what is going on with Buuhan]. Having forgotten himself in anger, the extreme power radiating from Majin Buu is causing the space surrounding him to warp! At this rate, the walls between dimensions will break down, and other dimensions will rush through!

DBZ episode 270, min 20-21
Context: SSJ Vegetto after watching Buuhan’s madness results
This is bad! He has gotten completely fired up! If I don't stop him, this universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions!

---------------------

i didn't get the part about power levels? could you explain more?

if beerus is using 10% of his power,than he powers up to 20% wouldn't he be twice stronger?

How do you define twice stronger? Bench pressing two times more weight? Destroying something twice as big? If that twice then of course not. Let's go back to the scouter scale. Power level=5 human level. Max energy produced in 10 seconds: 10 thousand Joules. Power level=500-1000. Energy released in 10 seconds: Moon busting 10^29Joules. If the power levels were linear then 100 humans would be able to destroy the moon. They don't. Not by a long shot ... an incredibly long shot. Similarly with the Beerus scale. Kid Buu in the anime supposedly destroyed a galaxy in the span of a few years putting him at 625 solar system levels per second and hence attack. But Beerus is universe level and the universe contains 10^22 solar systems (not to mention the intensity variation with distance). So we are talking about a chaotic difference --- 100 kid Buu's blasts won't contain the energy required to destroy 10^22 solar systems. They contain energy to destroy only 10^4 solar systems. Beerus scale is therefore an exponential scale where the numbers 1-10 could probably be thought as exponents...x^1, x^2, x^3,...,x^10 although you may tweak the formula with some coefficients.

[dragonballer]

Well, a mental projection of Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks may not be necessarily equal to Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks.

And I don't really get why Goku shouldn't be able to go Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu? Anyway, I try to justify the anime state of affairs with Goku being afraid that Super Buu would end up absorbing himself and Vegeta, so even though he's stronger he prefers to fuse to minimize the risks.

goku stated that gohan is as strong as the true gohan,maybe he is weaker in term of skill,but he should be very strong in term of raw power.

my theory is goku couldn't go ssj3 because of the side effect for "absorbing" vegetto,who couldn't go beyond ssj.

Buuhan’s barrier was the result of space warping and its power extends beyond Buuhan’s as it was probably carrying the pressure of those alternate dimensions that were trying to rush through the holes. It was against THAT one that Vegetto somewhat struggled against. Think of that as having water inside a glass dam. Buuhan broke a hole onto that dam and the water was about to rush out with incredible pressure and Vegetto had to put his hand there to stop and revert the flow. Well it is not exactly like that but hopefully you get the point that it is two very different feats – Vegetto’s being much harder.

DBZ episode 270, min 19-20
Context: Dende explaining to Mr Satan the danger of Buuhan’s actions.
There was a time when Majin Buu was sealed up in the Room of Spirit and Time. Mad with anger, Majin Buu used his power to break through the wall between dimensions, and then came out. Look at this, if you would [pointing out to what is going on with Buuhan]. Having forgotten himself in anger, the extreme power radiating from Majin Buu is causing the space surrounding him to warp! At this rate, the walls between dimensions will break down, and other dimensions will rush through!

DBZ episode 270, min 20-21
Context: SSJ Vegetto after watching Buuhan’s madness results
This is bad! He has gotten completely fired up! If I don't stop him, this universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions!

i can buy this as one of the possibility .we don't what the barrier is made of,it could be either result of dimensional warping or buu's own power.

but just to continue the talk,vegetto said gohan buu has a incredible power right after that scene,this is from the same vegetto who kept mocking on buu. and goku said kid buu is one level above any other buu,even the angered gohan buu.

How do you define twice stronger? Bench pressing two times more weight? Destroying something twice as big? If that twice then of course not. Let's go back to the scouter scale. Power level=5 human level. Max energy produced in 10 seconds: 10 thousand Joules. Power level=500-1000. Energy released in 10 seconds: Moon busting 10^29Joules. If the power levels were linear then 100 humans would be able to destroy the moon. They don't. Not by a long shot ... an incredibly long shot. Similarly with the Beerus scale. Kid Buu in the anime supposedly destroyed a galaxy in the span of a few years putting him at 625 solar system levels per second and hence attack. But Beerus is universe level and the universe contains 10^22 solar systems (not to mention the intensity variation with distance). So we are talking about a chaotic difference --- 100 kid Buu's blasts won't contain the energy required to destroy 10^22 solar systems. They contain energy to destroy only 10^4 solar systems. Beerus scale is therefore an exponential scale where the numbers 1-10 could probably be thought as exponents...x^1, x^2, x^3,...,x^10 although you may tweak the formula with some coefficients.

i konw that the destruction level is not linear for the power levels,but the ki atacks don't work like raw energy in joules,they have special properties.

even if power levels are not linear,beerus 10% thing should be more linear since he is using percentage,considering that beerus knows math well enough. if i say i was using 50% of my power,than i use 100%,i become 30x stronger,would that make sense? why the hell i said i was using 50%?

well,power level are numerical reference to show how strong is a character,when toriyama said beerus is 10 and whis is 15,i think his intention was to show whis is stronger than beerus,but not significantly stronger. by adding exponents and coeficients,the numerical reference would mean nothing and souldn't be used.

honestly,i don't like the power levels,but since they are "official",i can't use ssj3 without multiply ssj by 8.

[Mountaineer28]

In other words, the English dub is not a reliable source of information. It makes no logical sense for Kid Buu to ever be stronger than Kid Buu, no matter what the anime says.

[Hitiro]

In other words, the English dub is not a reliable source of information. It makes no logical sense for Kid Buu to ever be stronger than Kid Buu, no matter what the anime says.

It's not only the English dub. The Japanese anime also has the same line from Goku.

[Mountaineer28]

In other words, the English dub is not a reliable source of information. It makes no logical sense for Kid Buu to ever be stronger than Kid Buu, no matter what the anime says.

It's not only the English dub. The Japanese anime also has the same line from Goku.

That's right. Regardless, it still doesn't make a bit of sense.

[MisterGuyMan]

Kid Buu isn't rational though. So even if he's the strongest Buu to date, that doesn't mean he's logically going to use his full power against anyone. He's the big unknown. Under this interpretation, the only time we see him completely going for broke and use his full power is against the Genki Dama. Any other time, he's just messing around.

Why is the Kid Buu vs Super Buu argument a thing still. DB Super's Vegeta slice of life episode clearly placed Goku /Kid above everyone else when Vegeta said there's no doubt Goku was the best.

[Desassina]

We don't discard logic for inconsistencies and retcons, or else Garlic Jr. would be a thing. I laughed hard at those episodes, so should we towards Kid Buu vs Super Buu.

[Darkprince410]

Why is the Kid Buu vs Super Buu argument a thing still. DB Super's Vegeta slice of life episode clearly placed Goku /Kid above everyone else when Vegeta said there's no doubt Goku was the best.

His lines are inconsistent. His first statement as far as Goku being #1 is because he defeated Buu, though he defeated Buu using the Genki Dama, which didn't take into account his own strength at all. Saying that Goku was the strongest because he defeated Buu with the Genki Dama would be like saying that Kuririn was stronger than Vegeta on Namek because he did more damage to Freeza than Vegeta did because he used the Ki-enzan.

His second statement, while saying that he acknowledges Goku is the strongest Saiya-jin, goes further to say that there are beings other than Goku that he needs to surpass in order to become the strongest in the universe. Since it's established later that he doesn't remember who Beerus is, the only other way Vegeta's line would make sense is if he knew that there were other beings stronger than Goku in order to become the true #1 of the universe.

[Speedster]

From Akira Toriyama’s interview in Daizenshuu 4: World Guide released in October 1995.

Question: Out of all your characters, which one is the most cool?
Toriyama: I think it’s Goku. The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

[dbgtFO]

From Akira Toriyama’s interview in Daizenshuu 4: World Guide released in October 1995.

Question: Out of all your characters, which one is the most cool?
Toriyama: I think it’s Goku. The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

Toriyama only said the first sentence. The rest is simply the writer's/interviewer's comments.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Wasn't Dragon Ball over by that point?

It doesn't really have anything to do with what he shows in his story.