Sources on Kuririn being the strongest human

[Naughty Kinto Un]

From a storytelling perspective, Kuririn being the strongest makes sense. It plays against your expectations. It shows that when it comes to strength, looks can be deceiving. That's interesting. It's actually a recurring theme in Dragon Ball.

If it were Tenshinhan, how is that interesting from a storytelling perspective? That feels a bit predictable to me. I'm not sure where it could go beyond that yet another stoic buff badass is in the top tier.

How does Kuririn keep in such good shape? Sex every night with 18 would do that for you. Sex with Chaozu would not, however mind blowing it may be.

[Duo]

How does Kuririn keep in such good shape? Sex every night with 18 would do that for you. Sex with Chaozu would not, however mind blowing it may be.

You should be writing for Dragon Ball Z Abridged.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

I didn't read the whole topic but I doubt anyone has denied that Toriyama stated it or that Yamcha stated it. They just "deny" the relevance for their own interpretation because it's like a plothole to them.

Kuririn being the strongest is not a plot hole. That's like saying Goku being a saiyan is a plot hole. "Sure, the series says he's a saiyan, but I've always interpreted him as a human with a tail. Toriyama wants him to be an alien? That don't make sense, plothole."

[Analytic]

It doesn't make sense for them in their interpretation of the manga. If it does for you, great, but you are not them.

Can you elaborate more? Is just claiming "I don't think it makes sense" without providing any actual reasoning now supposed to be a valid way to say the author and characters are wrong? At that point you may as well just write your own version of the manga if you're just going to claim that things you don't like "don't make sense" without actually backing the statement up. A lot of things in Dragon Ball are open to interpretation, but this isn't. Toriyama himself says Krillin is stronger, Yamcha says Krillin is stronger, BoG and RF say Krillin is stronger, and nothing says Tenshinhan is stronger. To deny Krillin being stronger is nothing but bias.

Tell me, how would you feel if you wrote a story and then someone who read it told you that what think about your characters is wrong and what they think about your characters is right?

[rereboy]

Can you elaborate more?

The only real difference between the two situations is you and them not agreeing that the facts make sense, or not agreeing in the amount of sense it makes. Meaning that you aren't disputing the facts, you are disputing the interpretation from the facts and whether or not those facts make sense in the story. And that's purely subjective. No one is saying that Toriyama and Yamcha didn't state that Krillin is stronger, they are only arguing if that makes sense in the story, and that depends solely on the interpretation of the whole story and on people's opinions.

If you thought that the Krillin thing made as little sense as the piccolo thing, you would be agreeing with them. That's the only difference.

For example, someone could disagree with you regarding the piccolo thing and state that it actually makes sense, while you think it doesn't. And you could disagree with their reasoning but it wouldn't change the fact that the only difference is your disagreement of opinion regarding the same facts, and that is subjective. It's the same situation regarding the Krillin thing.

It doesn't matter at all why you think the Krillin thing makes sense, and why you don't agree with their reasoning. That is all your opinion, your interpretation, while they have their own opinion, they own interpretation. You can think whatever you want about their opinion and their reasoning, but it doesn't change the fact that, for them, the Krillin thing doesn't make much sense. And just as easily as you disagree with them, someone else could disagree with you regarding something else that you think doesn't make sense but they do.

You state that it's a matter of facts but it's not because they aren't denying that Toriyama said it or that Yamcha said it. They aren't denying the facts. They just think that these particular facts don't make much sense in the story.

To give you another example besides the Piccolo thing, Goku was able to gather the Dragon Balls before one year passed in early Dragon ball. Does anybody deny that fact? No, people just don't think it makes much sense and thus treat it as a plothole. The difference regarding the Krillin thing is simply that there's not nearly an unanimous opinion regarding it not making sense, while the situation of Goku gathering the Dragon Balls before one year passed is viewed pretty much unanimously as not making sense. Meaning that the Krillin thing is simply more divisive in terms of opinion. That's the only real difference.

Tell me, how would you feel if you wrote a story and then someone who read it told you that what think about your characters is wrong and what they think about your characters is right?

If someone read a story of mine and said that he doesn't think that an aspect of it makes much sense and that for them it's pretty much a plothole, and I didn't agree with them, I would simply say that, in my mind, what I was going for, made perfect sense and that I think that it still does, but, despite them having a different opinion/interpretation and not viewing it the same way, I hoped that they still enjoyed it, nonetheless.

Obviously, even the author can't dictate what other people think makes sense and how they interpret things. All the author can do is try to convey his intentions as he wants to convey them and hope people enjoy it, despite the unavoidable differences of opinion and interpretation. That's all there is to it.

I didn't read the whole topic but I doubt anyone has denied that Toriyama stated it or that Yamcha stated it. They just "deny" the relevance for their own interpretation because it's like a plothole to them.

Kuririn being the strongest is not a plot hole. That's like saying Goku being a saiyan is a plot hole. "Sure, the series says he's a saiyan, but I've always interpreted him as a human with a tail. Toriyama wants him to be an alien? That don't make sense, plothole."

Plotholes are simply things that don't make sense or that aren't explained in the story. Obviously, if you think something makes sense, you won't think it's a plothole. But if you think it doesn't make sense, then you might consider it a plothole. So, regarding the same thing, different people might see a plothole or not depending on whether they think it makes sense or not.

[Kuririn Fan]

But it doesn't matter what they think, that's the thing. They can hate it all they want, but the fact remains - Kuririn is the strongest.

[rereboy]

But it doesn't matter what they think, that's the thing. They can hate it all they want, but the fact remains - Kuririn is the strongest.

It doesn't matter to you because you have another opinion and don't agree with them, but it matters to them. Obviously.

And, once again, they aren't disputing that Krillin being the strongest was presented as fact... just whether that makes sense. That he was stated to be the strongest, everyone knows and accepts.

[z_cherub]

This is not in-universe (that's been covered, and the only direct statements on the subject indicate Kuririn is stronger), but I notice that it tends to be dub fans or people that haven't bothered with the original DB that tend to push the hardest for the "Nuh-uh, Teeee-In is stronger" argument. I assume this is because a lot of sub/manga fans are okay with the campy/cutsey/funny elements of the show, and dub fans tend to flock only to whatever the think is "most bad ass" at a particular moment, I.e., "Teeee-in must be stronger because he's so bad ass", "Vegeta is my favorite & should be the star of the show because he's so bad ass", and so on... Not a hard and fast rule, but it's a trend.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Plotholes are simply things that don't make sense or that aren't explained in the story. Obviously, if you think something makes sense, you won't think it's a plothole. But if you think it doesn't make sense, then you might consider it a plothole. So, regarding the same thing, different people might see a plothole or not depending on whether they think it makes sense or not.

You seem to be considering a plot hole as something you just don't like. It's not really that subjective. Trunks initially calling the Androids #19 and # 20 is a plot hole because it directly contradicts the rest of the story and can not be true at the same time as the rest of the series. But there is nothing stopping Kuririn being stronger than Tenshinhan.
I'm all for respecting opinions and tastes and whatnot, but Is is possible to just be incorrect.

[rereboy]

You seem to be considering a plot hole as something you just don't like. It's not really that subjective. Trunks initially calling the Androids #19 and # 20 is a plot hole because it directly contradicts the rest of the story and can not be true at the same time as the rest of the series. But there is nothing stopping Kuririn being stronger than Tenshinhan.
I'm all for respecting opinions and tastes and whatnot, but Is is possible to just be incorrect.

I explained what a plothole is, and it obviously wasn't "something we don't like". I might not like seeing Krillin being impaled by Freeza, for example, but obviously it makes perfect sense for Freeza to be able to do it. Making sense is not the same as liking something.

You consider Trunks calling the androids as #19 and #20 a plothole because it doesn't make sense to you, even though it's a fact that Trunks named them as #19 and #20. Meaning that you don't deny the fact that he called them #19 and #20, you just treat it as a plothole because it doesn't make sense to you. And if it made sense to you, you wouldn't call it a plothole. Not making sense is what makes it a plothole, it has nothing to do with not liking or liking something.

And the only difference between that and what is being discussed about Krillin and Tenshinhan is that people don't unanimously agree on whether it makes sense or not. Some think it makes sense, and some don't.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

I explained what a plothole is, and it obviously wasn't "something we don't like". I might not like seeing Krillin being impaled by Freeza, for example, but obviously it makes perfect sense for Freeza to be able to do it. Making sense is not the same as liking something.

You consider Trunks calling the androids as #19 and #20 a plothole because it doesn't make sense to you, even though it's a fact that Trunks named them as #19 and #20. Meaning that you don't deny the fact that he called them #19 and #20, you just treat it as a plothole because it doesn't make sense to you. And if it made sense to you, you wouldn't call it a plothole. Not making sense is what makes it a plothole, it has nothing to do with not liking or liking something.

And the only difference between that and what is being discussed about Krillin and Tenshinhan is that people don't unanimously agree on whether it makes sense or not. Some think it makes sense, and some don't.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Trunks Android thing was even corrected in later releases of the manga. It was corrected because it was a mistake and wrong. The Kuririn > Tenshinhan statement has never been "corrected", because it is not a plot hole. It's how the series is. Kuririn > Tenshinhan does make sense, it's just not unanimously liked.

[z_cherub]

You consider Trunks calling the androids as #19 and #20 a plothole because it doesn't make sense to you, even though it's a fact that Trunks named them as #19 and #20. Meaning that you don't deny the fact that he called them #19 and #20, you just treat it as a plothole because it doesn't make sense to you.

That's a silly comparison because the android names were a direct contradiction to things that were plainly stated repeatedly later throughout the manga. The Kuririn>Tenshinhan thing is NEVER contradicted by any other statement.

[rereboy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Trunks Android thing was even corrected in later releases of the manga. It was corrected because it was a mistake and wrong. The Kuririn > Tenshinhan statement has never been "corrected", because it is not a plot hole. It's how the series is.

The series has plenty of plotholes and inconsistencies. They don't cease to be plotholes and inconsistencies simply because they bothered to rectify one of the most glaring ones in one release of the manga and left the others.

Kuririn > Tenshinhan does make sense, it's just not unanimously liked.

It makes sense TO YOU. You look at the whole manga and think, "yeah, it makes sense", while others look at the whole manga and think "Er... I don't think that makes much sense, honestly...". It has nothing to do with being liked.

You are, quite literally, saying that, since you don't agree with how other people view the matter, it must be because they just don't like it. It can't be because they genuinely think it doesn't make much sense, they have to be saying it just because they don't like it, they can't genuinely have another opinion, another interpretation...

I, for example, like Krillin more as a character than I like Tenshinhan, since Tenshinhan is kind of boring and one-tone, and yet, do you know what I see in the manga?

- I see Krillin, after getting his potential unlocked, getting completely wrecked by a fighter with 40.000 something in power level in Namek;
- I see Krillin, even with the help of Gohan, struggling to fight Ginyu-Goku, who has a power level of 20.000 something;
- I see that Krillin is a human, so he didn't get any zenkais on Namek;
- I see that Krillin got his potential unlocked while Tenshinhan didn't, but I also see that Tenshinhan trained at Kaio's, while Krillin didn't;
- I see that Tenshinhan is the character that spent most time training at Kaio's, more than Goku;
- I see that Tenshinhan had more impressive display of skills in the Cell arc than Krillin;
- I see that Krillin has abandoned training in between the Cell arc and the Buu arc, while Tenshinhan hasn't;
- I see that Tenshinhan has once again more impressive display of skills in the Buu arc than Krillin;
- I see that at the end of the manga Krillin continues to not really train;
- I see that they are only compared in the Buu saga by Yamcha, but not at the end of the manga.

Putting all this together, do you know what my opinion is? That it would make more sense for Tenshinhan to be superior in terms of power, at least at the end of the manga. Of course that Krillin can be the superior one but, honestly, I don't think it makes much sense to think that his power-up in Namek, that only allows him to struggle against someone with 20.000 something power level at the time, put him so far ahead of Tenshinhan that Tenshinhan can't close the gap between them, even though he trained at Kaio's while Krillin didn't, and kept training during 14 years while Krillin didn't.

So, yeah... Is it a fact that Krillin is stated to be the superior one? Of course. Does it make more sense than the opposite? That depends on how one views the matter. Personally, I think that it would make more sense for Tenshinhan to be superior, despite liking Krillin more. Do I treat it as a plothole? Not really because I don't feel very strongly about it, but there's nothing stopping someone for treating it as such.

That's a silly comparison because the android names were a direct contradiction to things that were plainly stated repeatedly later throughout the manga. The Kuririn>Tenshinhan thing is NEVER contradicted by any other statement.

You are merely explaining why it doesn't make sense to you, and thus why you view it as a plothole. In that particular case, pretty much everyone agrees with your viewpoint and why it doesn't make sense, which is why people view it unanimously as a plothole. In the Krillin VS Tenshinhan case, not everyone agrees with your viewpoint and have another. That's all.

[z_cherub]

a lot...

My viewpoint:

Manga says sky is blue, then later repeatedly says the sky is red & corrects the "blue" statement in later prints. It's obvious to me the author intended for the sky to be red.

Manga says the grass is green and never addresses it directly again. It's obvious to me that the author intended for the grass to be green.

Your viewpoint:

You look at the above scenario and say that they're the same, it's all a matter of opinion and decide it's equally reasonable to believe the grass is pink when it's only ever stated to be green.

If you can't differentiate between a clear mistake that was corrected by the author/publisher and a baseless opinion that contradicts all material from the author, I'm not sure how productive any further discussion can be...

[rereboy]

a lot...

My viewpoint:

Manga says sky is blue, then later repeatedly says the sky is red & corrects the "blue" statement in later prints. It's obvious to me the author intended for the sky to be red.

Manga says the grass is green and never addresses it directly again. It's obvious to me that the author intended for the grass to be green.

Your viewpoint:

You look at the above scenario and say that they're the same, it's all a matter of opinion and decide it's equally reasonable to believe the grass is pink when it's only ever stated to be green.

If you can't differentiate between a clear mistake that was corrected by the author/publisher and a baseless opinion that contradicts all material from the author, I'm not sure how productive any further discussion can be...

Unlike you are trying to argue, I've always stated that there is a difference between them, and pointed towards what the difference is, so I clearly differentiated what was different between the two.

Regarding the first, being a clear mistake that was even corrected afterwards is why everybody agrees that it's a plothole. No one really argues anything differently because no one found any basis to argue that it makes sense in the story. It is clear to everyone that it's a mistake and therefore that it doesn't make sense.

But, in the Krillin VS Tenhshinhan case, like I've explained, there is one difference, and the difference is that some people have found a basis to think that it doesn't make much sense for Krillin to be superior, while the others simply don't agree with that basis and that opinion.

Therefore, yes, there is a difference, one that I had already pointed out. But besides that difference, in both situations we are dealing with the same question: does this fact make sense in the story? In one the answer is unanimous, in the other it isn't.

[shinmaru]

Tenshinhan is for me the strongest human no matter what others think or say.
He trained with Kaio and he got the Kikoho one of the best and strongest techniques.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Tenshinhan is for me the strongest human no matter what others think or say.
He trained with Kaio and he got the Kikoho one of the best and strongest techniques.

If your view on Tenshinhan is so unshakable that Toriyama himself can't convince you, I don't think I'll have much luck.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

But, in the Krillin VS Tenhshinhan case, like I've explained, there is one difference, and the difference is that some people have found a basis to think that it doesn't make much sense for Krillin to be superior, while the others simply don't agree with that basis and that opinion.

Therefore, yes, there is a difference, one that I had already pointed out. But besides that difference, in both situations we are dealing with the same question: does this fact make sense in the story? In one the answer is unanimous, in the other it isn't.

I don't think it makes much sense for an earth scientist to make normal humans stronger than Freeza. Can I consider 18 vs Vegeta to be a plot hole?

[rereboy]

I don't think it makes much sense for an earth scientist to make normal humans stronger than Freeza. Can I consider 18 vs Vegeta to be a plot hole?

If you think that the plot didn't explain how Gero created such fearsome androids and that it doesn't make much sense for a scientist in a planet that was less advanced than Freeza's empire to create androids much more powerful than Freeza, then, yeah, it's a plothole. You don't deny that it's a fact that Gero created those androids, and that those androids beat the SSJs, you just don't think that it doesn't make much sense for him to be able to do it. The plot, instead of making everything have perfect sense, had a "hole" in that part, in your opinion, thus "plothole".

However, while in the Krillin situation, a fan might come up with in-universe explanations to explain Yamcha's statement and just disregard Toriyama's statement to try to overcome/surpass the plothole, in this case it's impossible to come up with explanations for them not being stronger than Freeza. In that regard, it's an unsurpassable plothole.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

If you think that the plot didn't explain how Gero created such fearsome androids and that it doesn't make much sense for a scientist in a planet that was less advanced than Freeza's empire to create androids much more powerful than Freeza, then, yeah, it's a plothole. You don't deny that it's a fact that Gero created those androids, and that those androids beat the SSJs, you just don't think that it doesn't make much sense for him to be able to do it. The plot, instead of making everything have perfect sense, had a "hole" in that part, in your opinion, thus "plothole".

However, while in the Krillin situation, a fan might come up with in-universe explanations to explain Yamcha's statement and just disregard Toriyama's statement to try to overcome/surpass the plothole, in this case it's impossible to come up with explanations for them not being stronger than Freeza. In that regard, it's an unsurpassable plothole.

How is it any more unsurpassable than the Kuririn stuff? I can contrive any number of things to fix the android "plothole". Maybe Vegeta had a cold when he fought 18, maybe Piccolo actually got weaker when he fused with kami. I can find evidence for it (Gero's hideout was stated to be chilly, and Boo got weaker when fusing with good characters)