Kaio-sama's Techniques

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:17 pm

I thought he said not to go SSJ BEFORE fusing because they'd be stuck and it would cause to great a strain on their body. As far as I can remember he said that going SSJ after might be needed but probably wouldn't be.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:22 pm

Yes, sorry, I should have clarified that. Anyway my point was made that it wasn't necessary and a strain on the body.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:27 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:Yes, sorry, I should have clarified that. Anyway my point was made that it wasn't necessary and a strain on the body.

The Old Kaioshin told Goku that he shouldn't fuse with Gohan as a Super Saiya-jin because the transformation might be permanent and the resulting strain could shorten their lifespan. I'm not sure I see how that's comparable to Goku not using Kaioken as a Super Saiya-jin.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:37 pm

She's looking at the 'strain' factor of such a thing. If SSJ could strain a person that much to kill them then using a Kaio-ken as a SSJ would be even worse.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:42 pm

Xyex wrote:She's looking at the 'strain' factor of such a thing. If SSJ could strain a person that much to kill them then using a Kaio-ken as a SSJ would be even worse.

The Old Kaioshin implied that remaining in the Super Saiya-jin form permanently would be strenuous enough to affect Goku/Gohan's lifespan. Kaioken isn't permanent.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:04 pm

It's still quite a big strain though.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:08 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:It's still quite a big strain though.

Well, yeah -- initially. Goku doesn't seem to have any problems using Kaioken during the Freeza Saga.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:15 pm

No, it's not permanant. However, the strain would be much greater than just SSJ so it would take less time for it to kill him. Plus, without the fusion, he'd be weaker, making it even easier for it to kill him.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:49 pm

The reason why I think we didn't see if any of the humans learned Kaio-ken is because that was when they started getting screwed in favor of the saiyans. If that didn't happen, we probably could have seen Yamcha and Tien putting up more good fights.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:55 pm

I know it's filler, but doesn't Tenshinhan get a red Kaioken type aura during the fight with the Ginyu Force at Kaio's?

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:22 pm

The reason why I think we didn't see if any of the humans learned Kaio-ken is because that was when they started getting screwed in favor of the saiyans. If that didn't happen, we probably could have seen Yamcha and Tien putting up more good fights.

Well, it's certain that by then DBZ was to be all about the Saiyans from there out, but it's doubtful they could have mastered it.

Even if they could, it's even less likely their bodies could handle the strain. Feeble human frame and all that.

--EG

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:45 pm

I disagree that Tenshinhan couldn't handle the emmense strain put on the body by the Kaio-ken. I mean look at the mans Shin-Kikoho and tell me that isn't already a massive power up and strain on the body. The main difference being that instead of powering up the entire body the extra energy is focused into a massive blast. I agree with the fact that Toriyama was moving focus towards the Saiyans and simply wanted to have the humans as a reference point within the Freeza conflict, where else are you going to put them besides Kaio-sama's.

However, has anyone ever thought why Piccolo didn't master the Kaio-Ken. Even if the technique is near impossible to master Piccolo was just as strong as Goku was when HE mastered it. Not only that but Piccolo by the time he was at Kaio's planet was twice as strong as Goku (when he mastered the technique...just to clarify.). As were all of the humans, i'm sure it is simply a plothole but still I mean you'd think Toriyama could of been nice enough to throw the humans what bones he could. I just realised that I have done nothing but defend Tenshinhan for the last two days...kinda sad how little credit the guy gets.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:27 am

I STRONGLY agree that Tenshinhan could handle the Kaioken. Case in point: his ability to go above his limits with the Kikoho. It'd be the same thing to him. For all we know, the Shin-Kikoho may be derived by a blending of the two techniques. Tenshinhan is, afterall, a technique genius. He also did say that if he wanted to surpass Goku he'd have to not follow the same training as him, but grab the essentials and improve upon them. IE: Make the technique better than what Kaio himself thinks about it.

As for Piccolo, I think he just didn't have enough time to study it. He was quickly wished back to life compared to the others.
Yamcha couldn't adapt to the gravity very well and was wished back, what, 9 months before Tenshinan+Chaozu? So I feel the sameway towards him.

And Chaozu is Chaozu is Chaozu.

Concerning the Genkidama, you have to be pure of heart to use it, something none of the 4 were.

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:59 pm

Piccolo just seems pissed the entire time he is on Kaio's planet. All he did was meditate off in his little corner the whole he was there. I realised like two minutes ago that the real turning point in Dragon Ball "Z" has to be the Super Saiyan Transformation. I mean when you really think about it, the Saiyan saga is almost a continuation of the original cast and story line to an extent. Allowing all the characters that populated and made Dragon Ball what it was to give their lives to stop at this point 'The Ultimate Threat". Not only that but we get to see them fighting along side their greatest foe, i.e. Piccolo. Its the fist time Toriyama deployed his allow EVERYONE to get their asses handed to them one by one then bring Goku in there to take care of buisness. I mean after this point this plot devison is over done and stale but in the Saiyan saga it is a truely masterful...for lack of a better expression experience.

With the Super Saiyan transformation we are ushered into more of third series where in all the human characters take a back seat and we the viewer don't even notice it. Its not until watching these older episodes to we really start to miss these characters and I might be stretching it a little by saying that all the fans really feel that they were given the worst rap out of all the characters in the show. Before the point where Goku transforms for the fist time the show is a balance of the characters power and the characters character. With the Characters character kinda taking the most presedence <---(I wish I hadn't lost my dictionary.). After Goku transforms the balance is shifted and the main focus falls more towards the characters power leaving the story and dramatic sense of a truly wonderful arrangement of characters giving all that they have to save THE WORLD behind. God what a rant...I really got off what I was trying to say and now after proof reading this post have actually forgatten what I was trying to say...so I guess to end this breifly the Saiyan Saga is a testament to why I personally LOVE this series and can justify the sometimes poor writing and lackluster charactrers later on in the series. If anyone reads this stupid thing I thank you.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:57 pm

Beelz wrote:Piccolo just seems pissed the entire time he is on Kaio's planet. All he did was meditate off in his little corner the whole he was there.

That's anime-only. In the manga, we don't know how they trained, we just know that they did.

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:23 pm

True and also in the manga Tenshinhan had a shirt...kinda odd since he died without a shirt...maybe heaven has a lot of shopping centers...

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:48 pm

"Presedence" is actually spelt "precedence", If you meant that you needed a dictionary for spelling. If you meant for making sure it was the word you wanted, there's websites for that.

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:29 pm

I left my dictionary in my 11:30 class like three weeks ago. I have this class every Tuesday and Thursday and yet for some reason I always completely space it out. I suppose I could snatch one from Barnes and Noble but I have recently started to question my morals in regards to stealing from B&N all of the fricken time. Life sucks a lot more when you have bills and school to pay for

. Thank you for the assitance anyway.

The S · Post by **The S** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:23 pm

Yes he can. It was edited out for some reason in the dubbed version, but in the original Japanese version during Goku's training with Kaio-sama the two of them are both shown racing along and smashing a line of large rocks, while they're using the Kaio-ken technique.

...then why is it no attack list - online, printed, or whathaveyou - mentions he can use it?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:25 pm

I meant the Kaio-Ken technique, not the Genki-Dama.

EDIT:It has just been brought to my attention(by B-kun) that I got the Genki-Dama and the Kaio-Ken mixed up. So I am indeed wrong, and I apologize, and I'll just blame it on this bad flu I have.