Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supercat]

It amazing how people can't accept u6 fighters being this strong i mean unless its been confirmed by tori this whole on and off god ki just sounds ridiculous.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that u6 fighters are this strong this god ki on and off switch just funny ssj goku was able to fight against beerus with him noting he didn't lose any god ki whatsoever and as base was able to punch out the energy ball between ssj goku and beerus could anyone from the z era could hope to do that?

Or rather, why is it so hard to try to understand what people are basing their opinions on? Re-read a couple of the dozens of posts about how people act towards Gohan, Piccolo and Buu between ROF and this saga and you'll have your answer regarding why most people here are barely convinced about the "U6 fighters being this strong".

This "accept the facts lol" attitude when there are mostly headscratchers is very out of place.

Coming from you I feel it holds little value; pacz360 may be drawing opinion-based conclusions, but I'm pretty sure I've seen you do the same on multiple occasions. I've also noticed that you have the tendency to go above and beyond, drag sources that other fans generally don't even bother referring to (Gohan vs Frieza in Movie 12) just so you could cram everyone into some watered down tier system. Do you think the creators put that much thought into all of this when their audience is primarily a younger demographic? Seems unlikely. Dragon Ball has always been pretty straightforward in the sense that story progression yields substantial power increases for most if not all characters deemed relevant in a particular arc.

Tossing in fodders who can't even stand up to a villain who has long become a thing of the past defies the show's track record of introducing enemies that far trump their predecessor. To give you an example, even lackeys like Zarbon and Dodoria were said to be notably stronger than the previous arc's final villain (Vegeta).

All just an observation of course.

[TheMikado]

Ill ask in this thread since you guys are more likely to know. In BoG they state Beerus was using 70% of his power. Someone stated that line isn't in Super. Is there anything in Super BoG Arc stating how much power Beerus was using?

This thread likely has what you're looking for:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 25&t=31269

I don't think there were any precise numbers mentioned, besides the 10% against Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta.

This is excellent thank you. Yes the Vegeta numbers are still them. This seems to imply Beerus really isn't that much stronger than them especially after Goku achieved his God form. Why are people so hung up on the castle analogy when it was only made once and seemed to be referring to their base forms anyway.

[LowRyder2005]

It amazing how people can't accept u6 fighters being this strong i mean unless its been confirmed by tori this whole on and off god ki just sounds ridiculous.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that u6 fighters are this strong this god ki on and off switch just funny ssj goku was able to fight against beerus with him noting he didn't lose any god ki whatsoever and as base was able to punch out the energy ball between ssj goku and beerus could anyone from the z era could hope to do that?

Or rather, why is it so hard to try to understand what people are basing their opinions on? Re-read a couple of the dozens of posts about how people act towards Gohan, Piccolo and Buu between ROF and this saga and you'll have your answer regarding why most people here are barely convinced about the "U6 fighters being this strong".

This "accept the facts lol" attitude when there are mostly headscratchers is very out of place.

Coming from you I feel it holds little value; pacz360 may be drawing opinion-based conclusions, but I'm pretty sure I've seen you do the same on multiple occasions. I've also noticed that you have the tendency to go above and beyond, drag sources that other fans generally don't even bother referring to (Gohan vs Frieza in Movie 12) just so you could cram everyone into some watered down tier system. Do you think the creators put that much thought into all of this when their audience is primarily a younger demographic? Seems unlikely. Dragon Ball has always been pretty straightforward in the sense that story progression yields substantial power increases for most if not all characters deemed relevant in a particular arc.

... Excuse me? I think I've lost myself between the argumentum ad hominem, the quoting out of the context, arbitrarily deciding what is "dragging (unimportant?) sources" in one given discussion without any form of contextualization, or defending someone who was simply proclaiming that a discussion wasn't needed in the first place, and that we had to accept "facts".

By the way, if you had really bothered to read my posts and visualize me in your head as a username who thinks like this and writes like that, you may notice that my posts are, usually, awfully full of "I think", "probably", "could", "maybe". Or you missed one of my posts when I had said everyone was creating theories at this point and they had to be treated as such.

Don't you say, "X is a fact, and people are too stubborn to accept it" is another way to say "everyone is entitled to their own opinion"?

[supercat]

Or rather, why is it so hard to try to understand what people are basing their opinions on? Re-read a couple of the dozens of posts about how people act towards Gohan, Piccolo and Buu between ROF and this saga and you'll have your answer regarding why most people here are barely convinced about the "U6 fighters being this strong".

This "accept the facts lol" attitude when there are mostly headscratchers is very out of place.

Coming from you I feel it holds little value; pacz360 may be drawing opinion-based conclusions, but I'm pretty sure I've seen you do the same on multiple occasions. I've also noticed that you have the tendency to go above and beyond, drag sources that other fans generally don't even bother referring to (Gohan vs Frieza in Movie 12) just so you could cram everyone into some watered down tier system. Do you think the creators put that much thought into all of this when their audience is primarily a younger demographic? Seems unlikely. Dragon Ball has always been pretty straightforward in the sense that story progression yields substantial power increases for most if not all characters deemed relevant in a particular arc.

... Excuse me? I think I've lost myself between the argumentum ad hominem, the quoting out of the context, arbitrarily deciding what is "dragging (unimportant?) sources" in one given discussion without any form of contextualization, or defending someone who was simply proclaiming that a discussion wasn't needed in the first place, and that we had to accept "facts".

By the way, if you had really bothered to read my posts and visualize me in your head as a username who thinks like this and writes like that, you may notice that my posts are, usually, awfully full of "I think", "probably", "could", "maybe". Or you missed one of my posts when I had said everyone was creating theories at this point and they had to be treated as such.

Don't you say, "X is a fact, and people are too stubborn to accept it" is another way to say "everyone is entitled to their own opinion"?

First and foremost, I'm getting the feeling that you're misinterpreting my post and the point that it was meant to convey.

Secondly, do you even know what ad hominem means? All I was trying to say was that you seem to go above and beyond to breathe life into speculations that seem far-fetched. I did mention that it was all just an observation didn't I?

Nothing was quoted out of context. I brought up the movie 12 thing as an example because I noticed that you seem very keen on squeezing things into some highly unlikely power scale while somehow trying to make them work; I guess this sort of ties in with my second point though.

Also, I would hardly deem my view on movie 12 being a weak source to drag into a debate as an arbitrary opinion, as the movies have no correlation with the main timeline in neither the anime nor the manga based on my understanding. From an out-of-universe standpoint, don't you think two different sources indicating Frieza > Base Goku likely means there is truth behind the remarks? Does it make sense to drop such a comparison only to have it lack validity? Considering the fact that the movies have historically been ridden with inconsistencies, I usually take the vast majority of things with a grain of salt and just enjoy them for what they are.

I never said being unable to accept a fact is another way of saying everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I'm not sure where you're getting that.

[buutenks]

If all in dbs made sense we wouldnt have anything to argue about hehe.

Also due to the toriyama interview, i think ssj blue is a 7 on the god scale now, golden freeza being 6.7 and ssj blue(rof) 6.5.

Where the rest of the fighters rank? Where ever you choose i guess hehe.

Edit: tho i myself believe that no u6 fighter apart from Hit are above 1 on the god scale.

Also i think mageta is second strongest fighterin u6 team.

Hit>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mageta>ssj Cabe>Frost>base Cabe>Botamo.

[apex_pretador]

- Piccolo's power could never hope to be 1/8 of Super Buu's power. I'd be very surprised if it was anywhere near 1/1000th, honestly.

are you serious?

I guess this is the only point he might have a good reason to adress. By your numbers, SS2 Goku would be at 15 and SS Goku at 7.5. Then, Piccolo probably should be much lower than that, considering the three Super Saiyans are stronger than Kaioshin and Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo.

The others are okay. Though, I would probably not put Evil Boo at any different level from Good Boo's at split point.

Oh, well this was made quickly and not much was put in it to keep this simple.
It explains perfectly well how piccolo was able to give frost trouble, how vegetto can still be way above U6 (except SS Cabba & Hit).
Also, nothing to put SS gohan above piccolo in buu arc. We know that piccolo was "excited" to fight in budokai where super saiyans including goku, gohan, vegeta were going to fight. He can't sense god ki (Kaioshin matter) either.

Of course most of these numbers work fairly well if we drastically reduce most SSj multipliers, but on these forums the majority seems not to subscribe to the decreasing multiplier hypothesis.

The only multiplier I didn't take into account was SS2. You can very well put Majin vegeta / SS2 goku at 20 and lower piccolo to 8.5 - 9

Vegeta and Cabba are roughly even in their base forms, so the same is applied to them as Super Saiyans. Vegeta tanked that punch in the forehead because Cabba lost his Super Saiyan powers. I don't think Vegeta was holding back as a Super Saiyan. Showing Super Saiyan Blue so soon wouldn't have any point.

I don't see where Cabba lost his SSJ powers. Vegeta smiles right before stopping his barrage and then just stands there waiting for Cabba to punch him, while the later is still a Super Saiyan.
The point of showing SSJB was to challenge Cabba to reach it, it's directly stated.

Now this is for everyone who subscribes to the multipliers idea; please provide arguments supporting it.
This fight actually shows that such thing doesn't exist, yet people are ignoring it.
I don't remember ever any character mention any multiplier or pointing towards it.
In fact, I can't argue there's many indications that prove otherwise. The whole Android and Cell Arc revolve around countering this:

Spoiler:

• When the characters got trumped by the Androids, their logic was to surpass SSJ. Wouldn't it be easier and logical to increase the base, since the gains would be multiplied fifty fold?
• Then we have Goku mention mastering SSJ, as the best way to gain power. Which proves to have amazing results, easily surpassing the other forms. Isn't this contradictory with a steady multiplier?
• The characters never once trained in base after acquiring SSJ(at least in the manga). If it relates to base, why wouldn't they go for it, instead of mastering the form or acquiring new transformations.
• Nobody in the series ever mentioned a multiplier, contrary to the Kaioken and the Oozaru form. Even when Goku is explaining all the forms to Boo and Babidi.
• We see a SSJ Future Kid Trunks fighting Base Future Gohan, I guess we could assume Trunks is just very, very weak. But it seems to me that it's SSJ is simply weak. This point is very debatable and the weakest.

So I want to know if people actually thought the multiplier theory or are just blindly following what a guide said. If there's decent arguments for it, I'll read and gladly discuss it as a possibility. Although I see no indication in the story that's the case.
I have a problem with people talking about it, as if it was a fact.

Great post.

Actually, this is how i see the Champa arc,

Botamo : perfect Cell Tier
Piccolo : SS2 Tier
Base Goku and Mr Buu : SS2,5 Tier
Frost : SS3 Tier
SS Goku and Vegeta : SSVegetto Tier (maybe a bit higher).

So for SS Goku/Vegeta, 1/10 on the Beerus scale at best !

How the hell can base goku be in the same tier as mr buu?

Are we supposed to believe that SS gotenks could've solo'd all the forms of Freeza without even going SS3?
And where does it put Tagoma , SS gohan , 1st form freeza etc?

I'm just going with what I always thought. Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God, which is weaker in Super's version than the 6 Toriyama originally gave it (maybe a 3 or 4), then Blue is an improvement over it. Super Saiyan 2 and 3 now have the same multiplier as Super Saiyan's 50x. Base form Goku and Vegeta are, like, Super Boo tier or so.

It's pretty much confirmed that Goku and Vegeta aren't using god ki during this tournament (Vegeta will use it for Hit now though). Let's assume you're right:

1. It's ridiculous that there are so many god-level people running around (Piccolo, Botamo, Frost, Cabbe, Magetta etc.) to begin with. Achieving that level of power is not easy at all.
2. Piccolo getting a massive power boost is ridiculous. He was Cell Junior or Perfect Cell level during RoF, and now he's up there with God Goku after a bit of training? No way.
3. Why doesn't Frost have a Golden form if he's god level? In the manga, Goku tells Frost to train (meaning Frost is around Namek Frieza level). Goku can tell that Frost is just like Frieza in that he never trains either. Frost probably never had a reason to train in U6 to begin with.
4. Goku and Vegeta admitted that they weren't taking this tournament 100% seriously to begin with, so there's no reason to say that anyone else is God level apart from Hit.

Goku and Vegeta can probably switch god ki on and off, on base or Super Saiyan.

1. It depends upon what is your definition of "god tier". Piccolo & Teen goku were beyond god tier in 23rd TB. If you consider god ki, then god level is SS1 level (kaioshin). If you mean SSG level, then NO, not even SS3 vegetto is close to that. All of these people you listed fit fine perfectly between SPC and SS3 Vegetto. Only SSB , Gold freeza and Hit are god level so far.

2. Piccolo up with god goku? He was stated to be significantly weaker than frost who is not that much stronger than base goku. SS goku, who is not even close to god level, can kill frost in one blow while holding back. So, piccolo could've been like fat buu level and frost like buuhan level.

3. Frost around NAMEK FREEZA ???? You can't be serious. Goku never said frost never trains. Also, not everyone has golden form. It was created by freeza. Goku saying that frost is weaker than freeza is obvious. Frost is weaker than SS goku, while freeza is stronger than SSB goku.

4. Exactly, they can be stronger than vegetto and still not be god tier.

So we could say that Cabba is not strong as a Boo Arc SSJ? Really?

Well, there is a lot of evidence so far that suggest that Goku and Vegeta never used any of their Goldly ki in their base form or as Super Saiyans. So, yeah, if this episode is any indication, Cabba is not even as strong as Boo arc SSJ Goku/Vegeta. Hell, the only U6 fighter so far that seem to be able to fit on the 1-15 Godly tier scale of strength so far is Hit. Every U6 other fighter so far has pretty much been confirmed as weaksauce.

So, not being able to fit on 1-15 scale suddenly makes you weaker than buu arc SS ?

Which means that buu arc S2 can easily fit 1-15 scale? Which means that you believe that SS vegetto (who is easily over 100x Majin vegeta) will be on par with beerus and SS2 vegetto will stomp even whis?

You can't be serious.

[Khin]

I didn't watched the subbed version yet.But why are people putting Base Cabba equal to Base Vegeta ? Cabba was out of breath just by fighting him for a bit.

[Overlord78]

Ill ask in this thread since you guys are more likely to know. In BoG they state Beerus was using 70% of his power. Someone stated that line isn't in Super. Is there anything in Super BoG Arc stating how much power Beerus was using?

This thread likely has what you're looking for:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 25&t=31269

I don't think there were any precise numbers mentioned, besides the 10% against Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta.

This is excellent thank you. Yes the Vegeta numbers are still them. This seems to imply Beerus really isn't that much stronger than them especially after Goku achieved his God form. Why are people so hung up on the castle analogy when it was only made once and seemed to be referring to their base forms anyway.

We have no idea how strong Vegeta was in that rage boosted state although we know that he got much stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Also from the interview with Toriyama about the future of Super he stated that he doesn't currently have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis. So it's looks like they won't be surpassing them anytime soon.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, nothing to put SS gohan above piccolo in buu arc. We know that piccolo was "excited" to fight in budokai where super saiyans including goku, gohan, vegeta were going to fight. He can't sense god ki (Kaioshin matter) either.

Actually, we have Piccolo saying Kaioshin was stronger than him, but you could still argue he was mistaken or lying. Babidi put Kibito, Kuririn and Piccolo in the same ballpark and Dabra defeated them very quickly, while he had some trouble damaging Super Saiyan Gohan.

I didn't watched the subbed version yet. But why are people putting Base Cabba equal to Base Vegeta ? Cabba was out of breath just by fighting him for a bit.

Because Vegeta stated so, after their signature moves are equally matched. Also, Cabba's body is smaller than Vegeta's. It's only natural that his energy runs out faster when they fight hand-to-hand.

[Bullza]

I was just wondering if maybe the episode gave us an idea of the SSJB multiplier.

For simplicities sake lets just say SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Cabba were equal. If during the match Cabba had turned into a SSJ2 and then later a SSJ3 that would make him 8x stronger than SSJ Vegeta right?

But surely SSJB Vegeta would have remained stronger than him even then wouldn't he? Afterall he did say the form was the strongest version and it'd never be portrayed as being weaker than SSJ3.

So wouldn't that make SSJB like 10x or more stronger than SSJ? To explain it in numbers

Vegeta - 1
Cabba - 1
SSJ Vegeta - 50
SSJ Cabba - 50
SSJ2 Cabba - 100
SSJ3 Cabba - 400
SSJB Vegeta - 500+

[Noah]

So we could say that Cabba is not strong as a Boo Arc SSJ? Really?

Well, there is a lot of evidence so far that suggest that Goku and Vegeta never used any of their Goldly ki in their base form or as Super Saiyans. So, yeah, if this episode is any indication, Cabba is not even as strong as Boo arc SSJ Goku/Vegeta. Hell, the only U6 fighter so far that seem to be able to fit on the 1-15 Godly tier scale of strength so far is Hit. Every U6 other fighter so far has pretty much been confirmed as weaksauce.

Oh, I see... It seems to be appropriate

[ZombieVito]

I was just wondering if maybe the episode gave us an idea of the SSJB multiplier.

For simplicities sake lets just say SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Cabba were equal. If during the match Cabba had turned into a SSJ2 and then later a SSJ3 that would make him 8x stronger than SSJ Vegeta right?

But surely SSJB Vegeta would have remained stronger than him even then wouldn't he? Afterall he did say the form was the strongest version and it'd never be portrayed as being weaker than SSJ3.

So wouldn't that make SSJB like 10x or more stronger than SSJ? To explain it in numbers

Vegeta - 1
Cabba - 1
SSJ Vegeta - 50
SSJ Cabba - 50
SSJ2 Cabba - 100
SSJ3 Cabba - 400
SSJB Vegeta - 500+

Funny. I posted the same multiplier some pages ago.

[Bullza]

You did?

I know that because they supposedly won't be using SSJ2 and SSJ3 anymore some people have said that the original Super Saiyan form now incorporates all of the Super Saiyan power but that didn't look to be the case in this episode.

Someone also theorised that SSJB is the only form that utilised the God power/Ki and was the only form that made him God tier. Hence the base and SSJ forms shown here being weaker than when he fought Beerus.

That could make sense.

Though it'd make the difference between SSJ3 tier and God tier enormous, as well as Frieza's Golden boost.

[Doctor.]

Beerus: 1,000,000

Son Goku: 800
-- Super Saiyan: 40,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 80,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 320,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 800,000

Vegetto: 200
-- Super Saiyan: 10,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 20,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 80,000

Son Goku (Boo arc): 1
-- Super Saiyan: 50
-- Super Saiyan 2: 100
-- Super Saiyan 3: 400

Gotenks: 8
-- Super Saiyan: 400
-- Super Saiyan 3: 3,200

Gohan: 4,500

Super Boo: 3,000
-- Gotenks: 6,200
-- Gohan: 7,500

I think this will work fine. I'm going to assume Goku can simply use the SS2 and SS3 power in his Super Saiyan state now. Well, if not, it doesn't really matter, since he has SSB.

[Draconic]

Going by the 6-10-15 scale.

15: Whis, Vados

10: Beerus, Champa

9: Hit, Monaka(?)

8: Golden Freeza, SSGSS Goku (Champa arc), SSGSS Vegeta (Champa arc)

7: SSGSS Goku (RoF), SSGSS Vegeta (RoF)

6: SSG Goku, SSJ Goku (Champa arc), SSJ Vegeta (Champa arc), SSJ Cabbe

5: SSJ Goku (BoG), Final Form Frost

4: Magetta, Piccolo (Champa arc), SSJ3 Vegetto

3: Assault Form Frost, Base Goku (Champa arc), Base Vegeta (Champa arc)

2: Base Goku (RoF), Base Vegeta (RoF), Final Form Freeza, First Form Frost

1: Enraged Vegeta, SSJ Vegetto

Not on the scale but relevant enough: Gohan (after training with Piccolo), Botamo (who doesn't seem strong at all and just has an OP ability), Buu (who has no feats, so he is hard to place. I would go with 1, since in the BoG arc he did manage to survive Beerus' attacks, but that is due to his regeneration and therefore hard to place).

To be noted that I use the God scale as tiers, not actual power level numbers, so two or more characters can be on the same tier while still being weaker or stronger than one another. It's just that they are in the same ballpark and the only definitive fact is that they can defeat the lower tier, but can't win against the higher tier. In the case of Magetta and Piccolo, it's their abilities/strategy that gave them the possibility of winning, not the actual power and they both have enough feats to place them on the scale (Piccolo blocking punches from Frost with one hand and Magetta stopping Vegeta's Final Flash).

[Bullza]

See that's where it doesn't make much sense to me that the Super Saiyans Goku, Vegeta and Cabba would be God tier.

It'd mean that if Cabba were to become a SSJ2 he'd be even stronger than Beerus.

[LightBing]

Sorry for sounding like a scratched record, but do you guys seem how contrived it is to try to follow these multiplier rules? Wouldn't it be much better to follow the plot and power-scaling.

I mean Cabba base is equal to Vegeta's, yet there's a significant gap between their SSJ forms. At least that's how I see it, Vegeta tanked a full powered punch and didn't receive any damage from Cabba onslaught. Plus he smiled right before waving away his ki blast, who were supposed to be forcing him to defend.

[supercat]

Also, nothing to put SS gohan above piccolo in buu arc. We know that piccolo was "excited" to fight in budokai where super saiyans including goku, gohan, vegeta were going to fight. He can't sense god ki (Kaioshin matter) either.

Actually, we have Piccolo saying Kaioshin was stronger than him, but you could still argue he was mistaken or lying. Babidi put Kibito, Kuririn and Piccolo in the same ballpark and Dabra defeated them very quickly, while he had some trouble damaging Super Saiyan Gohan.

I didn't watched the subbed version yet. But why are people putting Base Cabba equal to Base Vegeta ? Cabba was out of breath just by fighting him for a bit.

Because Vegeta stated so, after their signature moves are equally matched. Also, Cabba's body is smaller than Vegeta's. It's only natural that his energy runs out faster when they fight hand-to-hand.

And you take what Babidi and Dabura have to say seriously because?

Not only is the Majin duo notorious for underestimating their opposition, they have a track record of overhyping fodders who even Namek / Android arc fighters could likely crush without batting an eye. Having confidence in PuiPui? Really? The guy's probably Ginyu-tier at best.

Also, how does Dabura deciding to eliminate Piccolo alongside Krillin and Kibito put him on their level? I honestly have no idea where you're getting this whole they're in the same ballpark thing; from what I recall, there was no such remark.

Do you just despise Piccolo or something?

[Hugo Boss]

I will cite an old post from Kaboom that might help to clear this matter up a bit.

Spoiler:

These are the official ones given in one of the recent Super Exciting Guide books, yes. It gave them as this:

• Super Saiyan - 50x the Saiyan's normal battle power. This is the old standard which was crafted from the events of the battle with Freeza and has been repeated in a whole bunch of things since then.
• Super Saiyan 2 - 2x the "strength" of Super Saiyan, or 100x normal power.
• Super Saiyan 3 - 4x the "strength" of Super Saiyan 2, or a whopping 400x normal power.

(Note that while the guide specifically uses "strength" instead of "battle power" for SSj2 and SSj3, it's a broad term usually used to refer to overall power. The different term was probably used in conjunction with the notion that "battle power" usually refers to strength as measured in numbers, which was no longer the trend by the time SSj2 and SSj3 debuted. Thus using a more generic "strength" term would be more appropriate.)

They may seem sort of arbitrary at first, but when one stands back and looks at them more broadly, they can fit rather well. Super Saiyan 2 is portrayed as quite a significant increase over Super Saiyan 1 (especially when Gohan premiered it), but in the Boo arc the two forms tended to blend together in some ways, with some characters not being able to tell the difference (their apparent lack of skill in Ki-sensing notwithstanding). But Super Saiyan 3 was a whole different story, shown to be a much more significant boost which generated so much power that it reached through dimensions and essentially slapped those on the Kaioshin World in the face.

(Also interesting: the GT Perfect Files, published years before the SEG, note that Goku often prefers to skip right over SSj2, since the boost from it is not as big and useful as that of SSj3. So that fits the trend too. )

Insofar as how believable or arguable they are... well, anyone's mileage may vary, but I see no reason not to go by them, personally. I think it's pretty cool that even so long after anything actually concerned with numbers story-wise has been published, we still get thrown neat little bones like this every now and then. It certainly makes crafting the fan-lists a bit easier!

Do the Super Saiyan forms' boosts rely on the plot? I dunno. Rather, I'd say the powers-that-be analyzed the plot and came up with something that works pretty well.

Even if personally I can give you a lot of explanations of why Cabba's punch didn't faze Vegeta at all, I think your question is very pertinent. Up until now, the plot didn't gave us any reason to doubt the "50x normal battle power" rule, but this time it isn't so clear. Vegeta did said they were equally matched as normal, but he wanted a more serious fight and even praised Cabba's talent to be able to transform so easily. But there is that, we don't know. Perhaps Vegeta can power-up more due to his experience with the form? Super Saiyan doesn't put the same strain on his body like it probably does with Cabba.

[Bullza]

Well wouldn't Vegeta be a MSSJ? Shouldn't that give him a greater boost power over the regular SSJ which was why Vegeta seemed stronger?

That said it is possible in real life for one person to punch someone of equal strenght and that person could tank the punch.