Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That's exactly my point, MSSJ isn't another form. Goku said mastering the original SSJ was the way to go. If one has more mastery over it, logically it would be stronger like in the case of Cabba vs Vegeta. They mentioned the grades as separate transformations, mastery over SSJ is exactly what it means. It pretty much tells us multipliers don't exist. One's as strong in SSJ as one's trained in it. This whole mastery business is the perfect argument against any rules. The manga couldn't make it any more clear.

This isn't real life and even in real life, if someone comparable to me punched me at full speed, at the very least I would get a nasty cut and have my head whipped back.

The multipliers still work just fine. It isn't that mastering Super Saiyan gives you a bigger boost, it just allows you to fully use the boost you're already getting instead of having the transformation eat away at the same power and stamina it's granting you. That's what the Cell Games was all about. Mastery of the transformation allowed them to negate those side effect and further their training as Super Saiyans, which translated to greater relative gains in their base forms.

Like I've already said in this thread, Cabba had not only already taken a beating from Vegeta to the point where he was willing to surrender, but the transformation was his first. Cabba and Vegeta can both get the x50 boost as Super Saiyans and not be equal like they were in base.

[ZombieVito]

So since Goku and Vegeta in their base forms don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God or retain any kind of Godly ki, this drastically changes changes how I originally viewed Freeza, Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Any thoughts?

If this is true then that Golden form has to be a ridiculous boost in power.

It isn't called his ultimate evolution for nothing.

[Chiki]

Do you think Kaio, Dende and the Oracle Fish are God level too? Anyone can sense God ki if they train.

Shit writing. Same way Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan God on his own.

I didn't say they were God level, you're the one who keeps bringing it up. To me, those are around the Boo forms and Vegetto in power.

I said "sense god ki with training." I guess I should clarify and say combat training. Dende can sense it simply because he's a God, not because he trained in combat. Goku and Vegeta increased in power level until they became able to sense it.

He was destroying Dr. Gero. He gained a MASSIVE power boost regardless.

Doesn't mean he can compete with the Super Saiyans. Gero never even had a fight so we don't know how powerful he was. He was probably a weakling. The only reason SSJ Vegeta didn't want to fight him was because of power absorption shit.

I don't get what Namek arc Freeza has to do with anything here?

Who says Frost never trained? You're assuming things. Goku never said he didn't train, he said he could become stronger by training like Freeza did. Considering Frost was a much more active fighter than Freeza was (since he was fighting in wars, unlike Freeza who let his goons take care of everything for him), it makes sense he was much stronger than Namek arc Freeza from the get-go.

If Goku says he could become stronger by training, it's obvious that he barely trained at all. You don't tell someone who trains regularly that they can become stronger by training! That's just basic English or common sense, I don't know how it can get any simpler than that.

And judging from the interview we just saw with Toyotaro and Toriyama, there's no reason to think that the statement in the manga is false or non-canon.

God Ki is ingrained into their bodies. I see no reason to believe they can turn it off at will.

I just gave you a crapload of reasons, such as:

1. Piccolo's ridiculous power boost
2. A bunch more gods running around (Cabbe, Magetta, Frost etc.)
3. Buu also would have needed a ridiculous power boost despite never training to compete with the U6 people. (I'm pretty sure he's too obsessed with eating and sleeping to train unlike PIccolo lol). If the U6 people are not gods, then Buu would not have needed to get a ridiculous power boost.
4. The statement from Goku that Frost can get stronger by training, which implies that Frost never/rarely trains. This proves that Frost is around Namek Frieza level.

The manga didn't prove anything. Goku assumed Frost didn't train, Frost didn't confirm it. And even if Frost never trained, it's obvious he was much, much more powerful than Freeza was on Namek. How? His assault form was on-par with base Goku. Are you telling me base Goku is in the low millions in terms of strength?

Base Goku w/o god ki is in the low millions. Base Goku w/ god ki is up there on the 0-10 power scale of the gods given by Toriyama.

It's not obvious, since it's easily possible that Base Goku simply wasn't using god-ki. Base Frieza's assault form is also on-par with base Goku w/o god ki.

Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Maybe Frieza unlocked god ki too? That would explain why ROF First Form Freeza was so strong, and why Base Goku w/ god ki could fight on par with Final Form Frieza.

[Lord Beerus]

Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Maybe Frieza unlocked god ki too? That would explain why ROF First Form Freeza was so strong, and why Base Goku w/ god ki could fight on par with Final Form Frieza.

Nah. I don't think the Golden Form provided any kind of Goldy ki for Freeza. If that were the case then the cast would have commented on not being able to sense Freeza. I just think the increase in power his Golden Form provided is just ludicrously high.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that EP 37 pretty much also confirmed that Super Saiyan =/= Super Saiyan God, since Base =/= Super Saiyan God.

[Bullza]

So since Goku and Vegeta in their base forms don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God or retain any kind of Godly ki, this drastically changes changes how I originally viewed Freeza, Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Any thoughts?

Well I think they're above the likes of SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu for reasons I've already explained. How much higher I couldn't say.

It seems kinda odd to think that the Goku who was fighting Frieza in the movie could possibly be weaker than the Gohan who beat Super Buu to me though. I'd probably go with Super Buu level perhaps.

Super Saiyan makes him 50x stronger. SSJB makes him over 10x stronger than that.

It'd make the Golden Form multiplier into the hundreds which seems farfetched but I dunno.

[Lord Beerus]

So it looks like Piccolo isn't God tier after all and the U6 fighters, excluding Hit, are practically weaklings. In hindsight, losing Majin Boo really was a huge blow because he would have stomped all of U6 fighters in his path, excluding Hit. I mean, none of the U6 apart from Hit seem to be not even close to Majin Boo arc SSJ tier strength, while Majin Boo himself is on the low end of SSJ3 tier strength and at the very minimum on the high end of SSJ2 tier strength. No wonder Vegeta was so upset about losing Majin Boo early on, he really would have turned the tide for them in the tournament.

[LightBing]

That's exactly my point, MSSJ isn't another form. Goku said mastering the original SSJ was the way to go. If one has more mastery over it, logically it would be stronger like in the case of Cabba vs Vegeta. They mentioned the grades as separate transformations, mastery over SSJ is exactly what it means. It pretty much tells us multipliers don't exist. One's as strong in SSJ as one's trained in it. This whole mastery business is the perfect argument against any rules. The manga couldn't make it any more clear.

This isn't real life and even in real life, if someone comparable to me punched me at full speed, at the very least I would get a nasty cut and have my head whipped back.

The multipliers still work just fine. It isn't that mastering Super Saiyan gives you a bigger boost, it just allows you to fully use the boost you're already getting instead of having the transformation eat away at the same power and stamina it's granting you. That's what the Cell Games was all about. Mastery of the transformation allowed them to negate those side effect and further their training as Super Saiyans, which translated to greater relative gains in their base forms.

Like I've already said in this thread, Cabba had not only already taken a beating from Vegeta to the point where he was willing to surrender, but the transformation was his first. Cabba and Vegeta can both get the x50 boost as Super Saiyans and not be equal like they were in base.

But if "fully using the boost" makes one stronger then it's a bigger a boost, regardless if it's because of less strain or the other reasons presented. That's just how numbers work. There has to be some differentiation between Namek Goku and Cell Games Goku, for example.

Your mentioning of gains in the base forms is pure conjecture, after Namek the characters don't mention their base. They only talk about SSJ and only train in SSJ.
When Vegeta was defeated by #18, he could just have tried to gain say 50 in base, which would translate to 2500 in SSJ. The gap wasn't massive. But both him and Goku turn to the idea of overcoming SSJ limits. Vegeta goes the various grade way and Goku the mastery route.
Now if SSJ had limits, I don't see how it could be related to base. If anything, the base would have limits that impeded the SSJ transformation increase. But they don't say it, they don't ever talk about any multipliers also. When they go out of their way to mention Kaioken various multipliers and Oozaru's.

This fells kinda of convoluted, I hope my point is able to came across.

[Cipher]

So it looks like Piccolo isn't God tier after all and the U6 fighters, excluding Hit, are practically weaklings. In hindsight, losing Majin Boo really was a huge blow because he would have stomped all of U6 fighters in his path, excluding Hit. I mean, none of the U6 apart from Hit seem to be not even close to Majin Boo arc SSJ tier strength, while Majin Boo himself is on the low end of SSJ3 tier strength and at the very minimum on the high end of SSJ2 tier strength. No wonder Vegeta was so upset about losing Majin Boo early on, he really would have turned the tide form them in the tournament.

I'm with you on low-balling the U6 fighters, but the way things have played out, they could also easily be at or above Majin Boo's level. Or at least Frost could be, who's the only one who seemed to be giving fighters a decent challenge with traditional strength. No reason he couldn't be on par with revived Freeza pre-Golden form (he could also be weaker, but whatever--that depends on whether Goku was going all-out in his base form). Goku had the upper hand in Super Saiyan, but was KO'd via poison before he could secure the match.

Piccolo was also told he didn't stand a chance against Frost strength-wise, and if you take that at face-value that would put him at least in the Boo-range, if Piccolo is still around Cell's level.

Personally, Frost being more or less equal to revived Freeza makes the most sense to me, as he's been throwing himself into battles and the arc immediately previous to this one shows us the capabilities of Freeza's race (or Freeza himself), minus his new transformation. And then it reads consistently with everything at the tournament without having to assume that Goku was toying around to a ludicrous degree. He might be a little weaker if you want to take a very, very literal approach to how Piccolo is able to hang in with him, but that's within Dragon Ball's flexibility in relative strengths, I think. It's never been, and is never going to be, as consistent with portrayals of strength as its plot sometimes demands and as its fans would like it to be. We're told Piccolo is far weaker, and he spends most of the fight dodging and trying to set up one big technique. That's enough.

It's really unclear how strong Cabba is, given Vegeta's approach to the fight. He says they're evenly matched in base, but later it's clear they're nowhere near even as Super Saiyans. I could go either way.

Magetta is extremely durable and capable of odd techniques, though it's unclear if his actual strength is Boo-level. Possibly. Either way, he can clearly handle hits from powers far above that level.

Botamo is impossible to defeat under normal means if his powers truly grant him invulnerability, but that doesn't really mean anything for his strength. Another mystery.

It's actually quite nice that the Universe 6 roster has been challenging the traditional notions of strength in latter-day Dragon Ball. Characters have the capability to win without necessarily needing to muscle through their opponents. A lot of this seems to be predicated on Champa's order that Vados find fighters who are "absolutely sure to win," as well as a Saiyan.

[Bullza]

I don't think the Universe 6 characters are supposed to be that weak.

If Goku in base is stronger than SSJ3 level then Frost and especially Cabba and Magetta are drastically above Majin Buu. They may not be God tier but they could be Super Vegito tier.

I also just realised that if base Goku really was SSJ3+ tier that would make it fit very nicely with GT being that Kid Goku was also apparently SSJ3+ tier in base form.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't think the Universe 6 characters are supposed to be that weak.

If Goku in base is stronger than SSJ3 level then Frost and especially Cabba and Magetta are drastically above Majin Buu. They may not be God tier but they could be Super Vegito tier.

I also just realised that if base Goku really was SSJ3+ tier that would make it fit very nicely with GT being that Kid Goku was also apparently SSJ3+ tier in base form.

See, that's the thing, I don't think Goku in his base form is really that strong, and especially isn't above SSJ3 tier since, as Zombie pointed out, by EOZ Goku was apparently on par with Oob in base.

[Cipher]

If Goku in base is stronger than SSJ3 level then Frost and especially Cabba and Magetta are drastically above Majin Buu. They may not be God tier but they could be Super Vegito tier.

I mean, possibly? But we have no actual idea. Magetta could take unbelievable hits, but he wasn't ale to return much traditional damage to Vegeta. He knocked him out of the air with a sneak attack, but sneak attacks have always worked to at least knock far stronger opponents flying (see Piccolo kicking final-form Freeza away from Goku on Namek). Cabba could absolutely be stronger than Majin Boo, and it's probably the easiest reading if you take Vegeta's base-form comment literally (which would be fine), but his whole approach to the match makes it hard to say definitively. It's clear there's a massive gulf between the two of them as Super Saiyans--after allowing himself to be knocked back by the initial barrage, he takes a punch square on his forehead without so much as a flinch.

[Hugo Boss]

Given there's such things as rhetorical questions and you have consistently mocked people for not agreeing with Piccolo being as strong as you think he is, in this case, it might as well be.
And you didn't even need to ask that question, yet you did, conditioning the casual viewer to wonder, if Hugo Boss really is despising Piccolo, instead of debating with him without these needless comments.

Lastly, I didn't get where this whole "Piccolo got taken down alongside Krillin and Kibito, so he must be on their level" stuff originated. Even barring the fact that Dabura and Babidi are terrible sources when it comes to accurately evaluating power, there was no such implication let alone mention of Piccolo being Krillin-tier.

apex_pretador claimed Piccolo could have been stronger than SS Gohan in the Buu arc, Hugo Boss used that example to claim Piccolo was deemed on a much lower level than Gohan and was deemed trash like Kibito and Krillin. Of course that doesn't mean he's only as strong as Krillin and Kibito, just that he's not relevant enough for Babidi and Dabra to distinguish him from the other two.

Thank you! You got my point. I didn't said Piccolo was as strong as Kuririn, but I used the word "ballpark". Is there a problem with it? Maybe someone can help me. What I wanted to say is that it doesn't matter if you are Kuririn or Piccolo, against Dabra the result would be the same. Or better, it doesn't matter if you are Tenshinhan or SS3 Goku, against Beerus the result would be same. I hope I had clarified.

This remark is actually in the manga, Babidi deemed Piccolo as "trash". The same trash that cut him in half. But the fact that Dabra and Babidi are not trustworthy in ki sensing doesn't change the fact that Dabra dispatched Piccolo easily. The rest of the story you know. I don't despise Piccolo, that's absurd.

[miguelnuva1]

Ssj Gohan in RF was ssj3 tire and Goku is much stronger than him.

[Lord Beerus]

Ssj Gohan in RF was ssj3 tire and Goku is much stronger than him.

What evidence is there to suggest that ROF SSJ Gohan was SSJ3 tier?

[Bullza]

Well this was something we went through before but I don't think you two were around at the time but to simplify it.

Frieza was told Goku beat Buu but was still confident he could beat Goku anyway after training. That wouldn't be including the Golden Form which he likely didn't know about at the time.

Gohan is as strong as Piccolo is base he should be vastly more powerful as a Super Saiyan yet he along with the others was no match for Frieza even in his first form and again he's obviously exponentially more powerful in his final form.

I could 100% see base Goku and Frieza being stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu. If Super Saiyan Goku is 50x stronger than that then it puts him well above anyone from the Buu saga except for possibly Vegito.

It would just be very odd if they created these new antagonist characters for Goku and Vegeta and they intended for them to be weaker than villains from three whole sagas ago. Same with Frieza.

[dbzfan7]

I prefer to keep Oob/Kid Boo level into consideration as it's part of a series, that's not nearly as inconsistent and making no sense. So I prefer to keep Goku around there personally. Keeps it in line with the future.

[Hugo Boss]

I like the idea that Freeza planned on getting stronger than Boo in his final form, but once he got his golden form, which was far more powerful than he calculated, he stopped midway. Then, when Goku used Super Saiyan, Freeza wouldn't mind to be weaker than Boo, because he would still have that trump card. If Freeza did right, he would probably end up as strong as Frost in the same forms and eliminate the issue with stamina. Frost being an active fighter sort of explains why he is ahead of Freeza, but at the same time explains why he didn't undergo the same kind of training, which Goku pointed in the manga.

[kinisking]

I like the idea that Freeza planned on getting stronger than Boo in his final form, but once he got his golden form, which was far more powerful than he calculated, he stopped midway. Then, when Goku used Super Saiyan, Freeza wouldn't mind to be weaker than Boo, because he would still have that trump card. If Freeza did right, he would probably end up as strong as Frost in the same forms and eliminate the issue with stamina. Frost being an active fighter sort of explains why he is ahead of Freeza, but at the same time explains why he didn't undergo the same kind of training, which Goku pointed in the manga.

No way Freeza is less powerful than boo in final form. Gohans at least ss2 level and was destroyed in first form. Isn't first form like 1% of final form's power?

[Hugo Boss]

I like the idea that Freeza planned on getting stronger than Boo in his final form, but once he got his golden form, which was far more powerful than he calculated, he stopped midway. Then, when Goku used Super Saiyan, Freeza wouldn't mind to be weaker than Boo, because he would still have that trump card. If Freeza did right, he would probably end up as strong as Frost in the same forms and eliminate the issue with stamina. Frost being an active fighter sort of explains why he is ahead of Freeza, but at the same time explains why he didn't undergo the same kind of training, which Goku pointed in the manga.

No way Freeza is less powerful than boo in final form. Gohans at least ss2 level and was destroyed in first form. Isn't first form like 1% of final form's power?

As far as I remember Gohan was a rusty Super Saiyan, he could be at any level you want, as long as it is above Tagoma's. Freeza's first form had less than 0,5% of Freeza's full power on Namek, but we don't know if the same boost is applied after the training. But he becomes X00 times more powerful when he turns golden, so that might help to reconcile things. After all, when Frost changes from his third form to his final form he should become over 50 times more powerful, but that would more or less clash with Super Saiyan Goku's power boost, since 3rd form Frost is stronger than Base Goku. So, I wouldn't think the gap between Freeza's and Frost's forms should work the same everytime.

[Lord Beerus]

Frieza was told Goku beat Buu but was still confident he could beat Goku anyway after training. That wouldn't be including the Golden Form which he likely didn't know about at the time.

But didn't Freeza himself say that he had an immense amount of latent potential that he never bothered to tap into because he didn't need to and if he trained to achieve that unlock the latent potential he had he could defeat Goku? I don't think when Freeza was talking about Final Form in referring to beating Goku. I'm also certain he was talking about his Golden Form aka his "full potential" as he referred to it in EP 20, because there is no way Freeza would think that his Final Form is way of unlocking his full potential and would think that would be enough to defeat Goku. It wouldn't make sense.