Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[emperior]

My new Power Levels after episode 38


BoG Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 750
SSJ - 37,500
SSJ2 - 75,000
SSJ3 - 150,000
SSG - 6,500,000

Vegeta
Base - 740
SSJ - 37,000
SSJ2 - 74,000
SSJ2 Enraged - 960,000

Beerus
Full Power - 10,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 5% - 500,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 1,000,000
vs God Goku, at 70% - 7,000,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000

RoF Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 900
Base with God Ki - 150,000
SSJ - 150,000
SSB - 7,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 905
Base with God Ki - 150,000
SSJ - 145,000
SSB - 7,050,000

Freezer
1st Form - 50,000
4th Form - 150,000
Golden - 7,500,000
Exhausted - 6,500,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 700
SSJ - 35,000

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 100
Post-Training - 35,000
Possessed by Ginyu - 30,000

Universal Tournament Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 1,000
SSJ - 150,000
SSB - 7,500,000

Vegeta

Base - 1,000
SSJ - 150,000
SSB - 7,500,000

Piccolo - 90,000

Mr Buu - 140,000

Monaka - ???


Botamo - 1,000

Frost
1st Form - 500
Assault Form - 10,000
Final Form - 100,000

Otto Magetta - 150,000

Cabba
Base - 1,000
SSJ - 100,000

Hit - 7,600,000

[apex_pretador]

My new Power Levels after episode 38


BoG Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 750
SSJ - 37,500
SSJ2 - 75,000
SSJ3 - 150,000
SSG - 6,500,000

Vegeta
Base - 740
SSJ - 37,000
SSJ2 - 74,000
SSJ2 Enraged - 960,000

Beerus
Full Power - 10,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 5% - 500,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 1,000,000
vs God Goku, at 70% - 7,000,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000

RoF Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 900
SSJ - 150,000
SSB - 7,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 905
SSJ - 145,000
SSB - 7,050,000

Freezer
1st Form - 50,000
4th Form - 150,000
Golden - 7,500,000
Exhausted - 6,500,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 700
SSJ - 35,000

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 100
Post-Training - 35,000
Possessed by Ginyu - 30,000

Universal Tournament Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 1,000
SSJ - 150,000
SSB - 7,500,000

Vegeta

Base - 1,000
SSJ - 150,000
SSB - 7,500,000

Piccolo - 90,000

Mr Buu - 140,000

Monaka - ???


Botamo - 1,000

Frost
1st Form - 500
Assault Form - 10,000
Final Form - 100,000

Otto Magetta - 150,000

Cabba
Base - 1,000
SSJ - 100,000

Hit - 7,600,000

Base goku must be stronger than final form freeza, not weaker than tagoma

[emperior]

In that moment he was probably tapping in his God Ki powers, I will edit it and add it ow.

[apex_pretador]

In that moment he was probably tapping in his God Ki powers, I will edit it and add it ow.

although I hate that theory, I won't discuss that ATM. I'll discuss it later.

The gains that goku & vegeta seemingly made in base in whis training are faaaaar too low. It was implied to have given them incredible gains.Also, it focused on their base.

[RandomGuy96]

Barring a big plot-based nerf in the future, base Goku [BOG/faff/tournament] < base Goku [EoZ] < Uub/Pure Buu still stands.

Also, didn't Frost already disprove the idea that the differences between those restrained forms for Freeza's clan are consistently proportional? The jump from his "Assault form" to his true form was obviously a lot less than x50 (as he was tied with if not above base Goku and getting his butt whooped by SS Goku), even though the jump from third form to fourth is much bigger than x50 for Freeza. He went from probably below 2 million (he was much weaker than Vegeta, who was much weaker than base Goku's 3 million) to 120 million.

[ZombieVito]

In that moment he was probably tapping in his God Ki powers, I will edit it and add it ow.

although I hate that theory, I won't discuss that ATM. I'll discuss it later.

The gains that goku & vegeta seemingly made in base in whis training are faaaaar too low. It was implied to have given them incredible gains.Also, it focused on their base.

They are actually small.

Goku went from a 6 to a 8 or 8.5 as of the Champa arc. That's around a 1.40 times increase from BoG.

[Chiki]

Being possible or not it's how it is, they only use godly ki in SSB. The series doesn't explain why but I guess we can infer from the context. Whis said that in order to become more powerful they should not use Super Saiyan while training. They even had the opportunity to spar with Whis himself and to train in a place only gods could freely move. Those things combined can probably explain why Goku and Vegeta became so strong. Not to mention Vegeta started much earlier and had time to catch up with Goku's level after he fought Beerus, which was already enough to allow him to feel the ki of gods, something he couldn't do previously because he wasn't powerful enough. Freeza surely trained and became a lot stronger but he relied too much on his ace.

Bolded part: This isn't how you argue with someone. You can't just contradict my claim that "they can use godly ki in base if they so choose" by saying that "no they don't." This is not a counterargument, it's just saying what I said is false. If you want to make a counterargument, you need to use reasoning and show me some evidence.

I'm not sure how the rest of your post contradicts my view that Goku and Vegeta can turn godly ki in base on and off.

Barring a big plot-based nerf in the future, base Goku [BOG/faff/tournament] < base Goku [EoZ] < Uub/Pure Buu still stands.

Did Goku say he went all out in base against Uub?

[Noah]

Barring a big plot-based nerf in the future, base Goku [BOG/faff/tournament] < base Goku [EoZ] < Uub/Pure Buu still stands.

Did Goku say he went all out in base against Uub?[/quote]

Exactly, Goku could pretty much toy with Oob as Vegeta did with Cabba just to test his potential.

[Cipher]

I've never, ever gotten the impression that Goku was in any danger in his fight against Oob. He's comfortably in control the entire time. He's surprised to be a bit hurt by one of Oob's kicks, but that means shit all when the series has established time and time again that characters can control their power at any point. He's able to attack Oob throughout the match without easily defeating him, which even without any of the new material would mean he's holding back at the beginning of the fight. Not enough to read one way or the other.

[Chiki]

Goku gets hurt by Bulma's slaps too, so obviously he can control his power level.

[supercat]

I find it funny how people seem to have no qualms about nonchalantly resorting to the whole "he was suppressed" argument whenever Goku and Vegeta faced off against anyone from universe 6, yet that same speculation is hardly applied here and Uub putting up a subjectively decent fight automatically means Uub = Base Goku.

[Bilbo_Swaggins]

I find it funny how people seem to have no qualms about nonchalantly resorting to the whole "he was suppressed" argument whenever Goku and Vegeta faced off against anyone from universe 6, yet that same speculation is hardly applied here and Uub putting up a subjectively decent fight automatically means Uub = Base Goku.

I think Uub = Base Goku (EoZ) is accurate though. Meaning, Base Goku (Eoz) = Kid Buu. If we didn't see Uub pushing himself further and further than it would be an unfair comparison. However, since Goku knew it was the reincarnation, he also speculated that getting him upset would be the trigger to unlocking his power. We don't assume that Goku is suppressed here, rather, we assume that he is able to match a fully angered Uub. Granted, it would be pure speculation to say that Uub during the Goku fight is = to max power kid buu, though that is what many people say. There is however a fairly logical progression to that conclusion, Uub = Kid Buu = Base Goku (EoZ).

One can also make the argument that Uub may not have fought at 100%, so you can't jump to the conclusion that Base Goku = Kid Buu. Either way, it's fun to debate either side.

[RandomGuy96]

Did Goku say he went all out in base against Uub?

He says he wants to fight Uub with 100% of his stamina, so I very much doubt he was holding back.

I've never, ever gotten the impression that Goku was in any danger in his fight against Oob. He's comfortably in control the entire time. He's surprised to be a bit hurt by one of Oob's kicks, but that means shit all when the series has established time and time again that characters can control their power at any point. He's able to attack Oob throughout the match without easily defeating him, which even without any of the new material would mean he's holding back at the beginning of the fight. Not enough to read one way or the other.

Don't conflate the beginning of the fight, where Uub was holding back, to the end, where he actually accesses some of Buu's power. Uub is pushing him back while Goku looks fairly worried. He has no reason to be suppressing his base there.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, nothing to put SS gohan above piccolo in buu arc. We know that piccolo was "excited" to fight in budokai where super saiyans including goku, gohan, vegeta were going to fight. He can't sense god ki (Kaioshin matter) either.

Actually, we have Piccolo saying Kaioshin was stronger than him, but you could still argue he was mistaken or lying. Babidi put Kibito, Kuririn and Piccolo in the same ballpark and Dabra defeated them very quickly, while he had some trouble damaging Super Saiyan Gohan.

Dabra didn't "defeat" piccolo. He got him with his spit unknowingly.
Also, see the highlighted text. I'm not saying that kaioshin is weaker than piccolo, but that he "doesn't have to be" stronger than him. Kaioshin also fought buu better than SS gohan ever did, and dabura is heavily implied to not fight seriously against gohan.

Technically, Dabra "got rid of" Piccolo like Babidi asked. Using the spit doesn't mean it wasn't within Dabra's capabilities to defeat Piccolo with another method. That was just how he chose to fulfill his task.

I can see why you think Piccolo's remark isn't reliable, but the story also doesn't provide any reason for us to think Piccolo is wrong. Due to being merged with former God, he might have an small idea of how powerful Kaio, Dai Kaio or Kaioshin were supposed to be.

Personally, Kaioshin was more lucky against Boo than Gohan or Dabra. Super Saiyan Gohan was able to pull the Z Sword, which was a feat numerous Kaioshin had never accomplished and with this one it wasn't different.

If Dabra wasn't fighting Gohan seriously and wasn't inflicting significant damage, why didn't he power-up accordingly to inflict more damage? He surely seemed confident in taking Gohan in a second match, but I think he was just blabbering. I mean, Dabra was barely winning, there wasn't a great difference to brag about. Though, I could understand why he was so confident, Gohan wasn't doing anything impressive.

Being possible or not it's how it is, they only use godly ki in SSB. The series doesn't explain why but I guess we can infer from the context. Whis said that in order to become more powerful they should not use Super Saiyan while training. They even had the opportunity to spar with Whis himself and to train in a place only gods could freely move. Those things combined can probably explain why Goku and Vegeta became so strong. Not to mention Vegeta started much earlier and had time to catch up with Goku's level after he fought Beerus, which was already enough to allow him to feel the ki of gods, something he couldn't do previously because he wasn't powerful enough. Freeza surely trained and became a lot stronger but he relied too much on his ace.

Bolded part: This isn't how you argue with someone. You can't just contradict my claim that "they can use godly ki in base if they so choose" by saying that "no they don't." This is not a counterargument, it's just saying what I said is false. If you want to make a counterargument, you need to use reasoning and show me some evidence.

I'm not sure how the rest of your post contradicts my view that Goku and Vegeta can turn godly ki in base on and off.

I don't remember to have used condescending tone in relation to your post nor did I agree with such "rules" (except from these ones, of course). So, you don't need to teach me how a discussion should be handled, ok?

For the sake of clarification, I didn't direct my response to that claim. This is actually your original claim:

Spoiler:

If you're assuming that the Base with and without god ki separation hypothesis is false, then this wouldn't explain how Base Goku/Vegeta can keep up with Final Form Frieza. How come Base Goku and Base Vegeta became so powerful that they were able to keep up with Final Form Frieza? Think about it. Beerus in BoG said Base Goku was way below Namek Frieza. Frieza trained a lot since then and so did Goku. The gap in power between Base Goku and Final Form Frieza shouldn't have changed much since both trained. But Base Goku is actually a bit stronger than Final Form Frieza. How is this possible without god ki? I don't think it is.

There's also the chance that there is no real answer and Toriyama hasn't thought this out at all....

Have you brought evidence to back it up, by the way? If you are so eager to follow the rules you speak of, you should know that, when you claim something, you must beforehand present the fundamentals of your statement. You think it's impossible to reach that realm of power without godly ki? Then, explain why. The very post you quoted has plenty of reasons to why I think it's possible to become as strong as Goku did without using godly ki. To further corroborate my point, Freeza himself doesn't have godly ki, even in his golden form, and he was able to surpass SSB Goku, who has godly ki.

In regards to your new claim, is it a speculation or have you actually proved it? It's up to you. What you expect from me is what we call in Laws the "fiendish proof" (probably not the best translation of "prova diabólica", but I hope you get the meaning). In a nutshell, it would be a evidence impossible or extremely difficult to be produced, for example, evidence of a negative fact. In the present case, it would be me proving that your "they [Goku/Vegeta] can use godly ki in base if they so choose" claim is wrong. I can't do that, really. The best I can do is saying godly ki (that stuff non-gods can't grasp or feel in normal conditions) presented in Saiyans until Ep. 37 is exclusively associated with Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. Everyone could sense Goku's ki in base or in SS, while they couldn't in SSG or SSB. You can still try relating the "not let your ki leak out" with "unlocking godly ki", though. At least we agree in something, there is no explanation in the matter, so we shouldn't have no problem if it is a simple speculation.

[Cipher]

Re: Oob, there's also nothing ever confirming that he's matching pure Boo's power by the end of the match--just that he's surprisingly strong and tapping into more power throughout.

All I can say is that in my viewing/reading experience I've never thought either one was using their full strength in that match (I mean, Oob is, but I don't think it's Boo-level; none of the other characters comment on it--he just has a lot of potential).

[apex_pretador]

Actually, we have Piccolo saying Kaioshin was stronger than him, but you could still argue he was mistaken or lying. Babidi put Kibito, Kuririn and Piccolo in the same ballpark and Dabra defeated them very quickly, while he had some trouble damaging Super Saiyan Gohan.

Dabra didn't "defeat" piccolo. He got him with his spit unknowingly.
Also, see the highlighted text. I'm not saying that kaioshin is weaker than piccolo, but that he "doesn't have to be" stronger than him. Kaioshin also fought buu better than SS gohan ever did, and dabura is heavily implied to not fight seriously against gohan.

Technically, Dabra "got rid of" Piccolo like Babidi asked. Using the spit doesn't mean it wasn't within Dabra's capabilities to defeat Piccolo with another method. That was just how he chose to fulfill his task.

Exactly. It doesn't indicate that dabura can one-shot piccolo with his power alone without using spit.

I can see why you think Piccolo's remark isn't reliable, but the story also doesn't provide any reason for us to think Piccolo is wrong. Due to being merged with former God, he might have an small idea of how powerful Kaio, Dai Kaio or Kaioshin were supposed to be.

Yes, he has a small idea probably , but nothing more.
Vegeta's line about kaioshin when buu just gets released also supports my point.

Personally, Kaioshin was more lucky against Boo than Gohan or Dabra. Super Saiyan Gohan was able to pull the Z Sword, which was a feat numerous Kaioshin had never accomplished and with this one it wasn't different.

You could argue about that, but still, he did better against buu than gohan, and SS1 level characters aren't even supposed to do any good against buu. So, kaioshin is atleast on the same tier as SS gohan.
At budokai, he is seemingly unimpressed of gohan. He holds him off easily as a SS2.
Shin's strength is one of the most complicated topic, but that doesn't change the fact that god ki can't be sensed by mere mortals.

If Dabra wasn't fighting Gohan seriously and wasn't inflicting significant damage, why didn't he power-up accordingly to inflict more damage? He surely seemed confident in taking Gohan in a second match, but I think he was just blabbering. I mean, Dabra was barely winning, there wasn't a great difference to brag about. Though, I could understand why he was so confident, Gohan wasn't doing anything impressive.

I think I must clarify that he wasn't trying his hardest.
He later says that he knows gohan is total trash because he fought him a little ago.

I find it funny how people seem to have no qualms about nonchalantly resorting to the whole "he was suppressed" argument whenever Goku and Vegeta faced off against anyone from universe 6, yet that same speculation is hardly applied here and Uub putting up a subjectively decent fight automatically means Uub = Base Goku.

Exactly. Goku was heavily suppressed. Everything indicates that. We see goku trying to provoke uub into anger, and getting kicked and barely hurting his wrist but with enough power to be equal to goku's expectations.
Also, an out of universe answer - at that time, it wasn't thought that goku will become this much powerful.

In that moment he was probably tapping in his God Ki powers, I will edit it and add it ow.

although I hate that theory, I won't discuss that ATM. I'll discuss it later.

The gains that goku & vegeta seemingly made in base in whis training are faaaaar too low. It was implied to have given them incredible gains.Also, it focused on their base.

They are actually small.

Goku went from a 6 to a 8 or 8.5 as of the Champa arc. That's around a 1.40 times increase from BoG.

Goku wasn't "6" , SSG goku was 6.
Also, I was specifically talking about base - Whis mentioned about them training base form specifically to get better results.

Also, why he should have bigger gains in training :

Spoiler:

Base goku (BoG) is at home, not training much, but due to ritual of SSG, his strength increased exponentially.

6 months later, goku sees whis and asks to train. Whis mentions that it is probably the correct time. Then goku later says that vegeta is more powerful than him now. It is also indicated during the training.
Vegeta (base) > Goku (base) in 6 months.

Then whis comments that after goku has arrived, they both are making progress quicker. He also comments that sparring gives them even better increases. They train for over 4 months, and then in whis' staff.

Vegeta (RoF) = Goku (RoF) trained for 4+ months.

Gains in 4 months >> Gains in 6 months (as stated by whis)
At the bare minimum, RoF goku / vegeta must be over 2x of base goku pre training.

[worrior_v1]

Actually, we have Piccolo saying Kaioshin was stronger than him, but you could still argue he was mistaken or lying. Babidi put Kibito, Kuririn and Piccolo in the same ballpark and Dabra defeated them very quickly, while he had some trouble damaging Super Saiyan Gohan.

Dabra didn't "defeat" piccolo. He got him with his spit unknowingly.
Also, see the highlighted text. I'm not saying that kaioshin is weaker than piccolo, but that he "doesn't have to be" stronger than him. Kaioshin also fought buu better than SS gohan ever did, and dabura is heavily implied to not fight seriously against gohan.

Technically, Dabra "got rid of" Piccolo like Babidi asked. Using the spit doesn't mean it wasn't within Dabra's capabilities to defeat Piccolo with another method. That was just how he chose to fulfill his task.

Exactly. It doesn't indicate that dabura can one-shot piccolo with his power alone without using spit.

I can see why you think Piccolo's remark isn't reliable, but the story also doesn't provide any reason for us to think Piccolo is wrong. Due to being merged with former God, he might have an small idea of how powerful Kaio, Dai Kaio or Kaioshin were supposed to be.

Yes, he has a small idea probably , but nothing more.
Vegeta's line about kaioshin when buu just gets released also supports my point.

Personally, Kaioshin was more lucky against Boo than Gohan or Dabra. Super Saiyan Gohan was able to pull the Z Sword, which was a feat numerous Kaioshin had never accomplished and with this one it wasn't different.

You could argue about that, but still, he did better against buu than gohan, and SS1 level characters aren't even supposed to do any good against buu. So, kaioshin is atleast on the same tier as SS gohan.
At budokai, he is seemingly unimpressed of gohan. He holds him off easily as a SS2.
Shin's strength is one of the most complicated topic, but that doesn't change the fact that god ki can't be sensed by mere mortals.

If Dabra wasn't fighting Gohan seriously and wasn't inflicting significant damage, why didn't he power-up accordingly to inflict more damage? He surely seemed confident in taking Gohan in a second match, but I think he was just blabbering. I mean, Dabra was barely winning, there wasn't a great difference to brag about. Though, I could understand why he was so confident, Gohan wasn't doing anything impressive.

I think I must clarify that he wasn't trying his hardest.
He later says that he knows gohan is total trash because he fought him a little ago.

I find it funny how people seem to have no qualms about nonchalantly resorting to the whole "he was suppressed" argument whenever Goku and Vegeta faced off against anyone from universe 6, yet that same speculation is hardly applied here and Uub putting up a subjectively decent fight automatically means Uub = Base Goku.

Exactly. Goku was heavily suppressed. Everything indicates that. We see goku trying to provoke uub into anger, and getting kicked and barely hurting his wrist but with enough power to be equal to goku's expectations.
Also, an out of universe answer - at that time, it wasn't thought that goku will become this much powerful.

In that moment he was probably tapping in his God Ki powers, I will edit it and add it ow.

although I hate that theory, I won't discuss that ATM. I'll discuss it later.

The gains that goku & vegeta seemingly made in base in whis training are faaaaar too low. It was implied to have given them incredible gains.Also, it focused on their base.

They are actually small.

Goku went from a 6 to a 8 or 8.5 as of the Champa arc. That's around a 1.40 times increase from BoG.

Goku wasn't "6" , SSG goku was 6.
Also, I was specifically talking about base - Whis mentioned about them training base form specifically to get better results.

Also, why he should have bigger gains in training :

Spoiler:

Base goku (BoG) is at home, not training much, but due to ritual of SSG, his strength increased exponentially.

6 months later, goku sees whis and asks to train. Whis mentions that it is probably the correct time. Then goku later says that vegeta is more powerful than him now. It is also indicated during the training.
Vegeta (base) > Goku (base) in 6 months.

Then whis comments that after goku has arrived, they both are making progress quicker. He also comments that sparring gives them even better increases. They train for over 4 months, and then in whis' staff.

Vegeta (RoF) = Goku (RoF) trained for 4+ months.

Gains in 4 months >> Gains in 6 months (as stated by whis)
At the bare minimum, RoF goku / vegeta must be over 2x of base goku pre training.

[/quote]

In Addition to 3 entire years sparring together after RoF and prior to the tournament, where do you rank Base Goku and Vegeta and where do you rank SSB Goku/Vegeta in comparison to Beerus?

I agree with everything you said so far, just intrigued.

I have Goku and Vegeta at a solid 8.5 full powered SSB.

Hopefully they have mastered and acquired some wonderful new techniques during their training period because I'm sure toriyama hasn't given them the 'White' transformation just yet. It would add some spark to their powers if new techniques were used which would benefit them immensely in battle and if it was premised on battle tactics as opposed to pure strength/power, I'd give my props to DB Super's writing.

[apex_pretador]

In Addition to 3 entire years sparring together after RoF and prior to the tournament, where do you rank Base Goku and Vegeta and where do you rank SSB Goku/Vegeta in comparison to Beerus?

I agree with everything you said so far, just intrigued.

I have Goku and Vegeta at a solid 8.5 full powered SSB.

Hopefully they have mastered and acquired some wonderful new techniques during their training period because I'm sure toriyama hasn't given them the 'White' transformation just yet. It would add some spark to their powers if new techniques were used which would benefit them immensely in battle and if it was premised on battle tactics as opposed to pure strength/power, I'd give my props to DB Super's writing.

I think you tried quoting me but couldn't due to 3 quote limit.

Anyways, let's say if beerus is a 100 then

SSB = about 75
SS = about 25
Base = less than 1

At BoG

SS2 enraged V = 0.4
Vegetto (hypothetical) = 10
SSG = 25 , powerup - 40 , FP - 50
SS (power of god still 100% active) - 50
Base - 0.1 - 10 , spike up while punching the universal ball - 25

Base - 0.2 (post fight) , SS - 10 , 50 (ONLY accessible by rage and desperation)

[Saiga]

Piccolo was also told he didn't stand a chance against Frost strength-wise, and if you take that at face-value that would put him at least in the Boo-range, if Piccolo is still around Cell's level.

I have to take issue with this. At least Boo-range from that? No way. The last time we got strength statements about Piccolo, it was forfeiting against Kaioshin because of the large gap in strength and being told he had no chance against a suppressed Perfect Cell (it's basically the same thing Goku says about Frost).

Piccolo wasn't in Cell's tier, and it takes a lot less than Boo to be out of his league. Unless you're thinking he had some kind of power-up that put him beyond Cell.

Actually, that's made me wonder. If Piccolo is the same relative strength he has been since his last RoSaT trip (and we haven't been told of any major improvements) than "you'd do no good against Cell" vs "you can't beat Frost, but can wear down his stamina" would be a good way to measure Frost's strength.

Personally, Frost being more or less equal to revived Freeza makes the most sense to me, as he's been throwing himself into battles and the arc immediately previous to this one shows us the capabilities of Freeza's race (or Freeza himself), minus his new transformation.

I don't think he's close to that. If we assumed 'base' Goku is just as strong as we was in RF, then Frost would be way stronger than the revived Freeza but without a Golden Form - Final Form Freeza was weaker than base Goku and got toyed with, Frost only needed his third/assault form to fight evenly with Goku. In the manga even his first form put up a pretty good fight.

But Goku tells Frost if he trains, he'd become strong like Freeza. I don't think that just means the Golden Form and I don't think Frost is meant to be comparable to the post-training Freeza.

[Khin]

But wasn't the reason for Goten and Trunks not fusing again was because they couldn't? Considering they defused after right attacking Tagoma and had to wait one hour to fuse again, as per the conditions of the fusion technique. Hell, Gotenks was actually confident about taking on Freeza, and then when he was about to, he defused.

In Boo Arc.When Gohan was about to fight Super Buu.Trunks and Goten tried to do fusion again because they're worried about Gohan.In ROF,they didn't even think of doing it again.

And Gotenks is the most cocky character in the series.He was confident on taking on Beerus in BASE.