Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Spoiler:

Technically, Dabra "got rid of" Piccolo like Babidi asked. Using the spit doesn't mean it wasn't within Dabra's capabilities to defeat Piccolo with another method. That was just how he chose to fulfill his task.

I can see why you think Piccolo's remark isn't reliable, but the story also doesn't provide any reason for us to think Piccolo is wrong. Due to being merged with former God, he might have an small idea of how powerful Kaio, Dai Kaio or Kaioshin were supposed to be.

Personally, Kaioshin was more lucky against Boo than Gohan or Dabra. Super Saiyan Gohan was able to pull the Z Sword, which was a feat numerous Kaioshin had never accomplished and with this one it wasn't different.

If Dabra wasn't fighting Gohan seriously and wasn't inflicting significant damage, why didn't he power-up accordingly to inflict more damage? He surely seemed confident in taking Gohan in a second match, but I think he was just blabbering. I mean, Dabra was barely winning, there wasn't a great difference to brag about. Though, I could understand why he was so confident, Gohan wasn't doing anything impressive.

Exactly. It doesn't indicate that dabura can one-shot piccolo with his power alone without using spit.

Yes, he has a small idea probably, but nothing more.
Vegeta's line about kaioshin when buu just gets released also supports my point.

You could argue about that, but still, he did better against buu than gohan, and SS1 level characters aren't even supposed to do any good against buu. So, kaioshin is atleast on the same tier as SS gohan.
At budokai, he is seemingly unimpressed of gohan. He holds him off easily as a SS2.
Shin's strength is one of the most complicated topic, but that doesn't change the fact that god ki can't be sensed by mere mortals.

I think I must clarify that he wasn't trying his hardest.
He later says that he knows gohan is total trash because he fought him a little ago.

apex_pretador, this conversation lasted longer than it should and it doesn't belong to this thread, I'll move it to the The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread, if you don't mind.

worrior_v1, you don't need to quote all that stuff. Since your post is below the user you were replying to, cleaning the quotes would make your post easier to read and understand.

[apex_pretador]

Spoiler:

Technically, Dabra "got rid of" Piccolo like Babidi asked. Using the spit doesn't mean it wasn't within Dabra's capabilities to defeat Piccolo with another method. That was just how he chose to fulfill his task.

I can see why you think Piccolo's remark isn't reliable, but the story also doesn't provide any reason for us to think Piccolo is wrong. Due to being merged with former God, he might have an small idea of how powerful Kaio, Dai Kaio or Kaioshin were supposed to be.

Personally, Kaioshin was more lucky against Boo than Gohan or Dabra. Super Saiyan Gohan was able to pull the Z Sword, which was a feat numerous Kaioshin had never accomplished and with this one it wasn't different.

If Dabra wasn't fighting Gohan seriously and wasn't inflicting significant damage, why didn't he power-up accordingly to inflict more damage? He surely seemed confident in taking Gohan in a second match, but I think he was just blabbering. I mean, Dabra was barely winning, there wasn't a great difference to brag about. Though, I could understand why he was so confident, Gohan wasn't doing anything impressive.

Exactly. It doesn't indicate that dabura can one-shot piccolo with his power alone without using spit.

Yes, he has a small idea probably, but nothing more.
Vegeta's line about kaioshin when buu just gets released also supports my point.

You could argue about that, but still, he did better against buu than gohan, and SS1 level characters aren't even supposed to do any good against buu. So, kaioshin is atleast on the same tier as SS gohan.
At budokai, he is seemingly unimpressed of gohan. He holds him off easily as a SS2.
Shin's strength is one of the most complicated topic, but that doesn't change the fact that god ki can't be sensed by mere mortals.

I think I must clarify that he wasn't trying his hardest.
He later says that he knows gohan is total trash because he fought him a little ago.

apex_pretador, this conversation lasted longer than it should and it doesn't belong to this thread, I'll move it to the The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread, if you don't mind.

.

it'd be better.

But wasn't the reason for Goten and Trunks not fusing again was because they couldn't? Considering they defused after right attacking Tagoma and had to wait one hour to fuse again, as per the conditions of the fusion technique. Hell, Gotenks was actually confident about taking on Freeza, and then when he was about to, he defused.

In Boo Arc.When Gohan was about to fight Super Buu.Trunks and Goten tried to do fusion again because they're worried about Gohan.In ROF,they didn't even think of doing it again.

And Gotenks is the most cocky character in the series.He was confident on taking on Beerus in BASE.

it is not like that matters anyways, he can't sense beerus.
However, he was also confident in taking super buu in base.

[apex_pretador]

Piccolo was also told he didn't stand a chance against Frost strength-wise, and if you take that at face-value that would put him at least in the Boo-range, if Piccolo is still around Cell's level.

I have to take issue with this. At least Boo-range from that? No way. The last time we got strength statements about Piccolo, it was forfeiting against Kaioshin because of the large gap in strength and being told he had no chance against a suppressed Perfect Cell (it's basically the same thing Goku says about Frost).

Piccolo wasn't in Cell's tier, and it takes a lot less than Boo to be out of his league. Unless you're thinking he had some kind of power-up that put him beyond Cell.

Actually, that's made me wonder. If Piccolo is the same relative strength he has been since his last RoSaT trip (and we haven't been told of any major improvements) than "you'd do no good against Cell" vs "you can't beat Frost, but can wear down his stamina" would be a good way to measure Frost's strength.

Personally, Frost being more or less equal to revived Freeza makes the most sense to me, as he's been throwing himself into battles and the arc immediately previous to this one shows us the capabilities of Freeza's race (or Freeza himself), minus his new transformation.

I don't think he's close to that. If we assumed 'base' Goku is just as strong as we was in RF, then Frost would be way stronger than the revived Freeza but without a Golden Form - Final Form Freeza was weaker than base Goku and got toyed with, Frost only needed his third/assault form to fight evenly with Goku. In the manga even his first form put up a pretty good fight.

But Goku tells Frost if he trains, he'd become strong like Freeza. I don't think that just means the Golden Form and I don't think Frost is meant to be comparable to the post-training Freeza.

By your own logic in your post, you are saying that piccolo CG was never commented upon the strength aftrewards. So, he remained the same strength.
However, then you yourself go on and fire a big bang attack on your own logic saying that base goku (who fought frost) was hundreds of times weaker than that one who fought freeza and still no one commented on it.

[Chiki]

I don't remember to have used condescending tone in relation to your post nor did I agree with such "rules" (except from these ones, of course). So, you don't need to teach me how a discussion should be handled, ok?

I'm not sure what made you think the tone of the post was "condescending." Rather, it was just friendly advice on how to make an argument, as I have formal experience in this sort of thing. I was not trying to condescend you at all.

Have you brought evidence to back it up, by the way? If you are so eager to follow the rules you speak of, you should know that, when you claim something, you must beforehand present the fundamentals of your statement. You think it's impossible to reach that realm of power without godly ki? Then, explain why. The very post you quoted has plenty of reasons to why I think it's possible to become as strong as Goku did without using godly ki. To further corroborate my point, Freeza himself doesn't have godly ki, even in his golden form, and he was able to surpass SSB Goku, who has godly ki.

Why doesn't Frieza have godly ki in his golden form? Where is the evidence in favor of the claim that he doesn't?

In regards to your new claim, is it a speculation or have you actually proved it? It's up to you. What you expect from me is what we call in Laws the "fiendish proof" (probably not the best translation of "prova diabólica", but I hope you get the meaning). In a nutshell, it would be a evidence impossible or extremely difficult to be produced, for example, evidence of a negative fact. In the present case, it would be me proving that your "they [Goku/Vegeta] can use godly ki in base if they so choose" claim is wrong. I can't do that, really. The best I can do is saying godly ki (that stuff non-gods can't grasp or feel in normal conditions) presented in Saiyans until Ep. 37 is exclusively associated with Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. Everyone could sense Goku's ki in base or in SS, while they couldn't in SSG or SSB. You can still try relating the "not let your ki leak out" with "unlocking godly ki", though. At least we agree in something, there is no explanation in the matter, so we shouldn't have no problem if it is a simple speculation.

It's not as hard to prove or disprove as you think it is.

First, ask yourself this: can the Z-Fighters sense Dende's ki? My answer is probably yes. We know that Dende might have some godly ki (a teeny tiny bit since he's so weak) since he can sense Beerus's ki. Perhaps there are some cases in which they can sense godly ki (Dende, Base Goku) but they cannot sense it when there is too much godly ki (SSG, SSB, Beerus, Whis).

Alternatively, perhaps they can't sense godly ki at all, and Base Goku/Dende have normal ki mixed with godly ki. Dende has a very tiny amount, while Base Goku has them mixed, so their ki can be sensed. But SSB Goku only has godly ki, so he can't be sensed.

To be honest, though, it is likely that Toriyama hasn't thought deeply about this at all, and even if there is contradictory evidence against a view, that view could still be right regardless. This is the guy who got rid of SS2 even though it has no negative side-effects at all, as far as we knew.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think this might be the first time where I've seen people believe Goku grew weaker despite doing extensive training.

Assault Form Frost alone should be comfortably above Base Goku post-Whis training, which means he's also above Final Form Freeza.

[Bullza]

It seems like it should be that way but I still find it strange. Considering everyone's reaction to Frieza transforming into his final form you'd think he was amazingly powerful.

Nobody really commented on Frost being so powerful though.

They could have given a little throwaway comment which compared him to Frieza.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't remember to have used condescending tone in relation to your post nor did I agree with such "rules" (except from these ones, of course). So, you don't need to teach me how a discussion should be handled, ok?

I'm not sure what made you think the tone of the post was "condescending." Rather, it was just friendly advice on how to make an argument, as I have formal experience in this sort of thing. I was not trying to condescend you at all.

Have you brought evidence to back it up, by the way? If you are so eager to follow the rules you speak of, you should know that, when you claim something, you must beforehand present the fundamentals of your statement. You think it's impossible to reach that realm of power without godly ki? Then, explain why. The very post you quoted has plenty of reasons to why I think it's possible to become as strong as Goku did without using godly ki. To further corroborate my point, Freeza himself doesn't have godly ki, even in his golden form, and he was able to surpass SSB Goku, who has godly ki.

Why doesn't Frieza have godly ki in his golden form? Where is the evidence in favor of the claim that he doesn't?

In regards to your new claim, is it a speculation or have you actually proved it? It's up to you. What you expect from me is what we call in Laws the "fiendish proof" (probably not the best translation of "prova diabólica", but I hope you get the meaning). In a nutshell, it would be a evidence impossible or extremely difficult to be produced, for example, evidence of a negative fact. In the present case, it would be me proving that your "they [Goku/Vegeta] can use godly ki in base if they so choose" claim is wrong. I can't do that, really. The best I can do is saying godly ki (that stuff non-gods can't grasp or feel in normal conditions) presented in Saiyans until Ep. 37 is exclusively associated with Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. Everyone could sense Goku's ki in base or in SS, while they couldn't in SSG or SSB. You can still try relating the "not let your ki leak out" with "unlocking godly ki", though. At least we agree in something, there is no explanation in the matter, so we shouldn't have no problem if it is a simple speculation.

It's not as hard to prove or disprove as you think it is.

First, ask yourself this: can the Z-Fighters sense Dende's ki? My answer is probably yes. We know that Dende might have some godly ki (a teeny tiny bit since he's so weak) since he can sense Beerus's ki. Perhaps there are some cases in which they can sense godly ki (Dende, Base Goku) but they cannot sense it when there is too much godly ki (SSG, SSB, Beerus, Whis).

Alternatively, perhaps they can't sense godly ki at all, and Base Goku/Dende have normal ki mixed with godly ki. Dende has a very tiny amount, while Base Goku has them mixed, so their ki can be sensed. But SSB Goku only has godly ki, so he can't be sensed.

To be honest, though, it is likely that Toriyama hasn't thought deeply about this at all, and even if there is contradictory evidence against a view, that view could still be right regardless. This is the guy who got rid of SS2 even though it has no negative side-effects at all, as far as we knew.

My apologizes then, you left that sort of impression. Glad to know you have formal experience in arguments, I do also.

The actual problem here is there are no comments on Freeza having godly ki. In fact, I can't present you evidence that Golden Freeza doesn't have godly ki for the same reason I explained above, it's a "fiendish proof". Ask yourself: what evidence there is that he has it? Even Herms have talked about this matter previously:

Spoiler:

Despite what many fans seem to think, all that's ever said about "God Ki" is that Goku and co. can't sense it. That's it. Even the phrase "God Ki" was coined by fans, and isn't said in the movies. There's nothing in these new movies to indicate that people with "God Ki" are invincible against anyone with regular ki, or anything like that at all. Beerus is a guy who's just a lot stronger than Goku and co. are at the moment, in pretty much the same way as previous enemies like Freeza. Even his "can't be sensed" gimmick is the same thing the androids had going on.

In RoF, Whis explains that Beerus has partially mastered the technique of having every part of his body movie independently in order to avoid attacks, allowing him to react faster than he otherwise could by relying on his brain and senses. So if Beerus has a feather in his cap that puts him over other characters, it's this technique rather than any "God Ki". And indeed, when Beerus fights SSj3 Goku back in BoG, he makes a big show of easily dodging Goku's attacks, which would be really pointless if "God Ki" made him invincible.

There's also nothing whatsoever in RoF implying Freeza has any "God Ki". That whole idea is still nothing more than speculation based on Freeza having kind of a red aura in the poster. One plot point in the movie is that Goku can sense Freeza's ki all the way from over at Beerus' planet, which allows him to zero in on Freeza and teleport back to Earth. So Freeza definitely doesn't have "God Ki" in his first form, and there's nothing to suggest that he picks up with his new-and-improved final form, or Golden Freeza.

Gohan can feel Dende's ki, but why would we know Dende has godly ki? None have ever implied that. God status was granted to Dende, but there is no evidence pointing to him acquiring godly ki. I don't think there is a problem in speculating godly ki might be somewhere in those situations, but one can't demand others to show evidence proving a theory is wrong, this isn't how a discussion works. Furthermore, if there is evidence against a theory, that theory is flawed, until there is further evidence replacing that former evidence in contrary.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm actually starting to believe the "lesser" gods (Dende, Kami, Kaio, etc) have Chi that can be sensed.

I don't believe Freeza has God Chi, but I do wonder how he could apparently sense Super Saiyan Blue Goku's power.

[apex_pretador]

It seems like it should be that way but I still find it strange. Considering everyone's reaction to Frieza transforming into his final form you'd think he was amazingly powerful.

Nobody really commented on Frost being so powerful though.

They could have given a little throwaway comment which compared him to Frieza.

why need a line when the fight is evident?
Did goku say anything about vegeta being tougher than nappa on earth invasion?

Everyone's reaction to final form freeza was good , but not incredible. The reaction to final form freeza was beyond incredible. When they've already sensed golden freeza, then frost is really nothing comparison to freeza.

The main point is - nobody commented on GOKU being weaker than when he fought freeza, so goku is atleast the same.

Frost > Assualt frost >= Goku >= Final form freeza >> SS3 gotenks

[Khin]

Here's my theory about the sensing God ki thing.

I think fellow gods can sense god ki even if they're weak [Dende and Elder Kaioshin can sense Beerus' ki].But even humans can also sense god ki if they're strong enough.Gohan and co. can sense Dende's ki because they're way stronger than him.Freeza can sense SSjBlue Goku's ki because they're in the same league in power.

From the looks of it.It looks like sensing god ki can be possible by mortals if they're strong enough.

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

None of them could sense Kaioshin or Kibito despite being way above them.

[Khin]

None of them could sense Kaioshin or Kibito despite being way above them.

Did they mention they can't sense Kibito's ki ? And Goku and co. were in their base forms at that time.And Piccolo states that Kaioshin is dimensions stronger than him.But whatever.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan said he had a feeling that Kibito was someone he wouldn't be able to beat without hiding his power. Pretty much every quote on Kaioshin and Kibito is based on their feeling rather than anything they're actually sensing from them. Piccolo seems to be the only exception there, though that in itself is pretty odd. When Goku sensed Gohan's presence on the Kaioshin world, he teleported right to him and was pretty surprised to see Kaioshin and Kibito there. From everything we see, they just don't have any Chi to sense.

[Chiki]

The actual problem here is there are no comments on Freeza having godly ki. In fact, I can't present you evidence that Golden Freeza doesn't have godly ki for the same reason I explained above, it's a "fiendish proof". Ask yourself: what evidence there is that he has it?

He's strong. SSG Goku is so strong because of god ki. SSB Goku is so strong because of god ki. How else would Golden Frieza be able to compete with them?

Despite what many fans seem to think, all that's ever said about "God Ki" is that Goku and co. can't sense it. That's it. Even the phrase "God Ki" was coined by fans, and isn't said in the movies. There's nothing in these new movies to indicate that people with "God Ki" are invincible against anyone with regular ki, or anything like that at all. Beerus is a guy who's just a lot stronger than Goku and co. are at the moment, in pretty much the same way as previous enemies like Freeza. Even his "can't be sensed" gimmick is the same thing the androids had going on.

In RoF, Whis explains that Beerus has partially mastered the technique of having every part of his body movie independently in order to avoid attacks, allowing him to react faster than he otherwise could by relying on his brain and senses. So if Beerus has a feather in his cap that puts him over other characters, it's this technique rather than any "God Ki". And indeed, when Beerus fights SSj3 Goku back in BoG, he makes a big show of easily dodging Goku's attacks, which would be really pointless if "God Ki" made him invincible.

There's also nothing whatsoever in RoF implying Freeza has any "God Ki". That whole idea is still nothing more than speculation based on Freeza having kind of a red aura in the poster. One plot point in the movie is that Goku can sense Freeza's ki all the way from over at Beerus' planet, which allows him to zero in on Freeza and teleport back to Earth. So Freeza definitely doesn't have "God Ki" in his first form, and there's nothing to suggest that he picks up with his new-and-improved final form, or Golden Freeza.

Ok, there are a lot of false assumptions about my view (and others who share my view) in this paragraph written by Herms.

First, god ki exists. Just from the fact that godly ki cannot be sensed by people with regular ki, you can automatically infer that god ki exists. For example, suppose I said "the king of France is bald." This sentence presupposes that the king of France exists. Similarly, whenever we talk about godly ki, we presuppose that it exists in the DB world. But the only thing we know about it right now is that it cannot be sensed (other from the fact that most people who have it are super strong).

I don't agree that people with god ki are automatically invincible against others with regular ki, see Dende.

Further, it's entirely possible that godly ki is a different kind of ki which arises from a mastery of being able to control your ki and automatically react to anything. Maybe it's super-concentrated ki. I don't think that this automatically makes you invincible, see Dende. I also think that SSJ3 Vegito would be able to put up a good fight against SSG Goku, though Vegito lacks any godly ki whatsoever. What follows from this, then, is that godly ki is just much better than regular ki, but a sufficient amount of regular ki can be stronger than a small amount of godly ki. For example, a 100 dollar bill is much better than a 1 dollar bill, but 200 1 dollar bills are worth more together than a 100 dollar bill.

I don't know whether or not Frieza has godly ki in golden form. Maybe he has such a ridiculous amount of regular ki in Golden form that he can overpower SSG Goku. But I find it likely that he has godly ki. In the end, it doesn't matter.

Gohan can feel Dende's ki, but why would we know Dende has godly ki? None have ever implied that. God status was granted to Dende, but there is no evidence pointing to him acquiring godly ki. I don't think there is a problem in speculating godly ki might be somewhere in those situations, but one can't demand others to show evidence proving a theory is wrong, this isn't how a discussion works. Furthermore, if there is evidence against a theory, that theory is flawed, until there is further evidence replacing that former evidence in contrary.

Like I said, Dende's ki can be felt because he may have a tiny amount of godly ki mixed in with normal ki. I said the same thing about Base Goku and Vegeta. Their kis can be felt, but SSB Goku's ki cannot because it no longer has regular ki.

[LowRyder2005]

In regards to your new claim, is it a speculation or have you actually proved it? It's up to you. What you expect from me is what we call in Laws the "fiendish proof" (probably not the best translation of "prova diabólica", but I hope you get the meaning).

What you are looking for, translation-wise, is either "Devil's Proof" or probatio diabolica.

[Bullza]

Did goku say anything about vegeta being tougher than nappa on earth invasion?

Well there was already a comment about Vegeta probably being more powerful than Nappa by Piccolo.

When they've already sensed golden freeza, then frost is really nothing comparison to freeza.

But Goku and Vegeta had been able to sense each other's energy and Beerus'. They were clearly unnerved when Frieza transformed into his Final Form though. I just think it's odd that Frost is portrayed as being stronger but not one person comments on his power or compares him to Frieza.

The main point is - nobody commented on GOKU being weaker than when he fought freeza, so goku is atleast the same.

Well nobody commented on Piccolo's power either and look at all the complications his power has brought up.

I'm just saying they could have included a few lines to make things a lot clearer.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't think everything needs to be stated when things are inferred enough. We know Base Goku is a lot stronger than he was when he fought Freeza, yet Assault Form Freeza is able to knock him around. That pretty much puts him beyond Freeza before he becomes Golden.

[Bullza]

Yeah but then Piccolo is able to hold his against Final Form Frost which implies he's stronger than base Goku and there was no comment on that and they should have made it clearer.

Most of the confusion that's going on could have been cleared up easily.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Didn't Frost admit that he was weakened? I'm pretty sure he would've easily rolled Piccolo if he was at full-power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm actually starting to believe the "lesser" gods (Dende, Kami, Kaio, etc) have Chi that can be sensed.

I don't believe Freeza has God Chi, but I do wonder how he could apparently sense Super Saiyan Blue Goku's power.

Base Goku & Vegeta can now sense Beerus' & Whis' ki even though they themselves don't possess god ki, because they have become strong enough to be be able to do so (according to Whis in Super). So, this would mean that Goku & co. could sense the ki of gods like Kaio & Dende because they had become strong enough to do so.

It doesn't make sense for a god like Kaio to not have god ki, since the Super Saiyan God, who is at the same level as the Kami of Earth, has god ki.