Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

Also, did you really put CG SUPER SAIYAN gohan above full power perfect cell? No disrespect man (seriously, don't mind) but this is laughable.

1) With or without the meaningless "no offense" modifier, can we please NOT do the "laughable" thing for something as subjective and ultimately meaningless as power level numbers? This isn't the type of community where they're unduly treated as serious business and opinions of them are worthy of derision.

2) Based on where DBZGTKOSDH placed Goku, that may not even be "full-power" Cell, just the power Cell used to fight Goku and Gohan before the latter went Super Saiyan 2.

ok. I edited my post

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Golden freeza seems like barely a boost, why? He was implied to be a huge , HUGE HUGE HUGE boost.

No one ever said anything about the boost that Freeza's Golden form gave him. All they were talking about was Golden Freeza's amazing power.

#19 is too high and dr gero is too low.

Why?

The same vegeta, who one-shotted post absroptions #19 , was implied to lose against gero. Piccolo said the same thing as well.

What are you talking about? Dr. Gero was never implied to be stronger than Vegeta.

Not to mention that he doesn't lack confidence in fighting the androids, and if he is really THAT weak, wouldn't he instantly understands that they cant be the androids?

Piccolo never showed confidence that he could beat the Artificial Humans in a one-on-one fight, he was just confident that they would manage to defeat them eventually.

Also, did you really put CG SUPER SAIYAN gohan above full power perfect cell?

My bad, I was having Cell before he powered-up to full power in my mind. Fixed it.

[apex_pretador]

Golden freeza seems like barely a boost, why? He was implied to be a huge , HUGE HUGE HUGE boost.

No one ever said anything about the boost that Freeza's Golden form gave him. All they were talking about was Golden Freeza's amazing power.

Everyone specifically talking about golden freeza's amazing power implies that he is significantly stronger than his base form.

#19 is too high and dr gero is too low.

Why?

The same vegeta, who one-shotted post absroptions #19 , was implied to lose against gero. Piccolo said the same thing as well.

What are you talking about? Dr. Gero was never implied to be stronger than Vegeta.

Not to mention that he doesn't lack confidence in fighting the androids, and if he is really THAT weak, wouldn't he instantly understands that they cant be the androids?

Piccolo never showed confidence that he could beat the Artificial Humans in a one-on-one fight, he was just confident that they would manage to defeat them eventually.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5
Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…”


Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”
(THE SAME VEGETA ONE-SHOTTED #19 post)


Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.6
Context: after Tenshinhan, Gohan, and Kuririn want to chase after No.20
Piccolo: “I understand…But don’t try and fight him. He’s not an opponent you guys could handle…”


Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”
(GOKU ISN'T IN ANOTHER DIMENSION THAN PICCOLO)


Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”


Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P8.2
Context: Piccolo wants to fight No.20 without Vegeta's interference
No.20: “Don’t interfere, he says…Kukkukkuh…Alright, if I drain [Piccolo]'s energy again, then [I’ll win] against Vegeta…”
(HE UNDERESTIMATED PICCOLO AND STILL THOUGHT THAT HIS POWER WILL BE ENOUGH TO BEAT VEGETA WHILE HE'S SEEN VEGETA'S POWER)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Everyone specifically talking about golden freeza's amazing power implies that he is significantly stronger than his base form.

But he is, according to my numbers.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5
Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…”

That just shows that Piccolo is much stronger than the Earthlings.

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”
(THE SAME VEGETA ONE-SHOTTED #19 post)

Vegeta had lost a lot of power though, and used his most powerful attack to one-shot #19, so this could give advantage to Dr. Gero to absorb even more power from Vegeta. #19 had absorbed a Kamehameha from a weakened SS Goku, and a lot of power from SS Vegeta. Dr. Gero had only absorbed power from Yamcha at that point, and after that he only absorbed a normal ki blast from SS Vegeta & power from suppressed Piccolo, so I don't see how Dr. Gero could have eventually surpassed #19.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”
(GOKU ISN'T IN ANOTHER DIMENSION THAN PICCOLO)

Piccolo is concerned because Goku should have been even more powerful than that, it has nothing to do with his power IMO.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

IMO, Kuririn is saying that because he is watching Piccolo beating the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans in the future... except it later turned out that these are different ones, and much weaker than the ones that actually killed Super Saiyans in the future. Otherwise, he would have said this after sensing Piccolo's ki, like everyone reacted after sensing the power of the Super Saiyans for the first time.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P8.2
Context: Piccolo wants to fight No.20 without Vegeta's interference
No.20: “Don’t interfere, he says…Kukkukkuh…Alright, if I drain [Piccolo]'s energy again, then [I’ll win] against Vegeta…”
(HE UNDERESTIMATED PICCOLO AND STILL THOUGHT THAT HIS POWER WILL BE ENOUGH TO BEAT VEGETA WHILE HE'S SEEN VEGETA'S POWER)

That doesn't necessarily mean that he will become stronger than Vegeta. Power isn't everything, and Dr. Gero has a very special ability than not only can make him stronger than he is during his fight, but it also limits his opponents' moves since they can't use ki blasts against him.

[ahill1]

Also, did you really put CG SUPER SAIYAN gohan above full power perfect cell? No disrespect man (seriously, don't mind) but this is laughable.

1) With or without the meaningless "no offense" modifier, can we please NOT do the "laughable" thing for something as subjective and ultimately meaningless as power level numbers? This isn't the type of community where they're unduly treated as serious business and opinions of them are worthy of derision.

2) Based on where DBZGTKOSDH placed Goku, that may not even be "full-power" Cell, just the power Cell used to fight Goku and Gohan before the latter went Super Saiyan 2.

I disagree about power levels being as meaningless as you say, otherwise why to have a thread specifically aimed to power levels with more than 300 pages?

[Kaboom]

I disagree about power levels being as meaningless as you say, otherwise why to have a thread specifically aimed to power levels with more than 300 pages?

There's a reason this thread is in the "Fan-Created Works" section.

[Hugo Boss]

1) Technically, Dabra "got rid of" Piccolo like Babidi asked. Using the spit doesn't mean it wasn't within Dabra's capabilities to defeat Piccolo with another method. That was just how he chose to fulfill his task.

2) I can see why you think Piccolo's remark isn't reliable, but the story also doesn't provide any reason for us to think Piccolo is wrong. Due to being merged with former God, he might have an small idea of how powerful Kaio, Dai Kaio or Kaioshin were supposed to be.

3) Personally, Kaioshin was more lucky against Boo than Gohan or Dabra. Super Saiyan Gohan was able to pull the Z Sword, which was a feat numerous Kaioshin had never accomplished and with this one it wasn't different.

4) If Dabra wasn't fighting Gohan seriously and wasn't inflicting significant damage, why didn't he power-up accordingly to inflict more damage? He surely seemed confident in taking Gohan in a second match, but I think he was just blabbering. I mean, Dabra was barely winning, there wasn't a great difference to brag about. Though, I could understand why he was so confident, Gohan wasn't doing anything impressive.

1) Exactly. It doesn't indicate that dabura can one-shot piccolo with his power alone without using spit.

2) Yes, he has a small idea probably, but nothing more.
Vegeta's line about kaioshin when buu just gets released also supports my point.

3) You could argue about that, but still, he did better against buu than gohan, and SS1 level characters aren't even supposed to do any good against buu. So, kaioshin is atleast on the same tier as SS gohan.
At budokai, he is seemingly unimpressed of gohan. He holds him off easily as a SS2.
Shin's strength is one of the most complicated topic, but that doesn't change the fact that god ki can't be sensed by mere mortals.

4) I think I must clarify that he wasn't trying his hardest.
He later says that he knows gohan is total trash because he fought him a little ago.

Moving it from Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread. For context, search for page 183. I took the liberty to put numbers on our lines to make things more simple.

I don't understand what you meant by "exactly". My conclusions were completely the opposite of what you claimed.

I think Dabra can "one shot" Piccolo without spit and I explained why. You think Piccolo is SS-tier and Dabra can't do what I claimed based on what?
a) Piccolo was defeated by a cheap trick, therefore he and Kuririn must be much harder to defeat them they were;
b) Piccolo can't sense Kaioshin's ki to tell how strong he is, so Piccolo didn't know what the hell he said;
c) Kaioshin fought better than SS Gohan and can hold SS2 Gohan off easily, then Kaioshin was wrong when he said it was quite hard to stop Gohan from moving in the tournament.. and he was wrong about SS Gohan surpassing his powers..;
d) Dabra wasn't all-out against Gohan, so he must have forgotten he was supposed to inflict damage enough to revive Boo and not enjoy a battle he had a slight advantage.

I don't know if I had understood your points correctly, but these are the impressions you leave. I disagree with them, because..

a) Vegeta's line about Kaioshin only supports he was weaker than Goku and Vegeta.
b) Gohan's speed was at least greater than Kaioshin's. Kaioshin didn't knock Boo in any time, Gohan did once and that scared Babidi for a brief moment. The best Kaioshin could do was making Boo's head go back a little with a kiai twice. I don't see in which part Kaioshin faired better than Gohan did. Both would have died, if not for the intervention of others. Dabra had the worst luck, despite being a better fighter than those two.
c) Dabra's confidence in being able to defeat Gohan correlates with the way their previous fight went, Dabra was winning. It doesn't imply Dabra was hiding strength back then.

[apex_pretador]

1) Exactly. It doesn't indicate that dabura can one-shot piccolo with his power alone without using spit.

2) Yes, he has a small idea probably, but nothing more.
Vegeta's line about kaioshin when buu just gets released also supports my point.

3) You could argue about that, but still, he did better against buu than gohan, and SS1 level characters aren't even supposed to do any good against buu. So, kaioshin is atleast on the same tier as SS gohan.
At budokai, he is seemingly unimpressed of gohan. He holds him off easily as a SS2.
Shin's strength is one of the most complicated topic, but that doesn't change the fact that god ki can't be sensed by mere mortals.

4) I think I must clarify that he wasn't trying his hardest.
He later says that he knows gohan is total trash because he fought him a little ago.

Moving it from Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread. For context, search for page 183. I took the liberty to put numbers on our lines to make things more simple.

I don't understand what you meant by "exactly". My conclusions were completely the opposite of what you claimed.

I think Dabra can "one shot" Piccolo without spit and I explained why. You think Piccolo is SS-tier and Dabra can't do what I claimed based on what?
a) Piccolo was defeated by a cheap trick, therefore he and Kuririn must be much harder to defeat them they were;
b) Piccolo can't sense Kaioshin's ki to tell how strong he is, so Piccolo didn't know what the hell he said;
c) Kaioshin fought better than SS Gohan and can hold SS2 Gohan off easily, then Kaioshin was wrong when he said it was quite hard to stop Gohan from moving in the tournament.. and he was wrong about SS Gohan surpassing his powers..;
d) Dabra wasn't all-out against Gohan, so he must have forgotten he was supposed to inflict damage enough to revive Boo and not enjoy a battle he had a slight advantage.

1. No, Krillin is obviously not going to be able to fight SS+ level opponent. You said that dabra "easily took care" of piccolo, but was having problems with gohan. I'm saying that dabra spit taking care of piccolo doesn't mean that he can completely stomp or one shot piccolo.

2. Piccolo doesn't know the strength of kaioshin because he can't sense his ki. All his words are based on speculation and some other-worldly knowledge. He didn't even know he was kaioshin. By piccolo's words, Dai Kaio >>Piccolo is indicated and even that is not by sensing power but speculation and some other worldly knowledge of Kami. So, the "only" comparison between piccolo and shin is turned useless.

3. He did hold gohan without much trouble , and that was SUPER SAIYAN 2 gohan. He wasn't much impressed by it , only said it is hard to believe this power in mortals, so he must not be that away from gohan resting SS2 level. His performance against buu also indicates that he might be superior to SS1 gohan,

4. Dabra's statement says that he fought gohan a little and that he's trash. Given how the battle was shown, they were near equals, with dabra not sweating and looking tired but gohan was (like cell vs goku or weighted goku vs tien etc), it is possible that dabra didn't try his hardest.

I don't know if I had understood your points correctly, but these are the impressions you leave. I disagree with them, because..
a) Vegeta's line about Kaioshin only supports he was weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

The quote:

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”
Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...”

Now, how is kaioshin "supposed to be tremondous"?
The only quotes about shin's strength are piccolo's and freeza's. Given piccolo's statement, freeza's statement is kind of useless.
So, vegeta saying that kaioshin's hype is probably just hype and nothing else, suggests that he thinks this in context to the piccolo's statement, because there is no other hype over kaioshin power.

b) Gohan's speed was at least greater than Kaioshin's. Kaioshin didn't knock Boo in any time, Gohan did once and that scared Babidi for a brief moment. The best Kaioshin could do was making Boo's head go back a little with a kiai twice. I don't see in which part Kaioshin faired better than Gohan did. Both would have died, if not for the intervention of others. Dabra had the worst luck, despite being a better fighter than those two.

The fight seems to disagre with SS gohan >> Kaioshin part at least. They are on the same level atleast, with someone having the slight superiority maybe.
Goku (less than 85,000) was faster than FP Ginyu. Speed mostly relates with power but not always. I see them both at the same level.

c) Dabra's confidence in being able to defeat Gohan correlates with the way their previous fight went, Dabra was winning. It doesn't imply Dabra was hiding strength back then.

open to interpretation.

[Hugo Boss]

I replied to your number 1 argument, because you said Dabra using spit to get rid of Piccolo is an evidence that Dabra can't one shot Piccolo, or am I mistaken? I never said Dabra's spit definetely translates into he being able to take care of Piccolo without it. Those events don't correlate.

Though he can't sense Kaioshin's ki, somewhere in Piccolo's mind, he realizes how strong Kaioshin is. That's my point. I can't see how his remark is useless. The story doesn't provide any fact to show Piccolo was mistaken or wrong.

Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous, as Vegeta said, but not when compared with Goku and Vegeta, that's what Vegeta said. He was actually noting the fact Goku and Vegeta have far surpassed Kaioshin's power, to the point even the fearsome Boo isn't very impressive. Vegeta was proven wrong later about Boo being a pushover.

Personally, I see Boo having more difficulty with Gohan than with Kaioshin. He cross punched Gohan and used a ki ball meant to kill. Gohan fought back, Kaioshin did practically nothing.

[Kuririn Fan]

I think you guys will have a blast with these upcoming episodes.

[ahill1]

Gohan fights Dabra on par the whole time; there's no way you can look at the fight and suggests Drabra's much stronger. Dabra's blast does almost no damage to him, he uses spits early on, he fells the need to bring out his sword (which doesn't help him).

[Hugo Boss]

They had a fairly even battle, but Gohan needs a senzu beam to recover his energy, some of it went to Boo while he was fighting Dabra. In another hand, Dabra doesn't seem to have suffered any damage at all.

[RandomGuy96]

The physical struggle between them near the end of their short fight which results in Gohan snapping his sword in half makes me think that Gohan has a sizeable advantage in power, perhaps 10-15%. Dabra was able to get the upper hand due to magic tricks, rather than raw strength. Getting the drop on Gohan by using an illusion, disrupting his enemy's attack and forcing him on the defensive with stone spit, materializing a magic sword to cut him, etc. It's part of why I like that battle, brief as it was.

[Khin]

Where do you guys put these people at ?

SSJ2 Teen Gohan [25th TB] :
SSJ2 Vegeta [Pre Majin] :
SSJ2 Goku [Buu Arc] :

Innocent Buu :
Innocent Buu [Angry to the point of splitting] :

Grey Buu :
Good Buu :

Super Buu :
Kid Buu :

South Kaioshin :

[Desassina]

Base Goku (25x) = Base Vegeta (32x) = Base Gohan (40x)
SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan
SSJ2 Goku = Majin Vegeta

And now, something completely different:

Evil/Buff Buu - 8
Super Buu - 6.4
Kid Buu - 4
Fat Buu - 1.6
Good Buu - 0.8

South Kaioshin - 2
Dai Kaioshin - 0.2

Use multiplication for all of them, with South Kaioshin being the equivalent of 200%, and Dai Kaioshin 20%. Angered Fat Buu is hard to measure, because it depends on how willing to release suppression he is.

[apex_pretador]

Where do you guys put these people at ?

SSJ2 Teen Gohan [25th TB] : 68
SSJ2 Vegeta [Pre Majin] : 83
SSJ2 Goku [Buu Arc] : 98

Innocent Buu : vs vegeta - 140 (FP), initial - 80 , vs gohan and co - 110
Innocent Buu [Angry to the point of splitting] : 180

Grey Buu : 180
Good Buu : 120

Super Buu : 600
Kid Buu : 400

South Kaioshin : 260

^^^ In units of Yakons
Buff buu - 660
SS3 goku - 392
SS3 gotenks - 720
Gohan - 750

I replied to your number 1 argument, because you said Dabra using spit to get rid of Piccolo is an evidence that Dabra can't one shot Piccolo, or am I mistaken? I never said Dabra's spit definetely translates into he being able to take care of Piccolo without it. Those events don't correlate.

Exactly. So dabra spitting on piccolo doesn't mean that he can easily beat him strengthwise.

Though he can't sense Kaioshin's ki, somewhere in Piccolo's mind, he realizes how strong Kaioshin is. That's my point. I can't see how his remark is useless. The story doesn't provide any fact to show Piccolo was mistaken or wrong.

I'm not saying that his remark is definitely useless or wrong, but how is he supposed to know? Piccolo doesn't even know who he is, so how is he supposed to know his strength? It is made clear in BoG that he can't sense god ki.

Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous, as Vegeta said, but not when compared with Goku and Vegeta, that's what Vegeta said. He was actually noting the fact Goku and Vegeta have far surpassed Kaioshin's power, to the point even the fearsome Boo isn't very impressive. Vegeta was proven wrong later about Boo being a pushover.

And exactly HOW was he supposed to be tremondous? Obviously not by "1-shotting freeza" statement, because #16 can do that & he's not tremondous. So, only think which makes kaioshin "supposed to be tremondous" is piccolo's statement. Vegeta's comment can't refer to anything else.

Personally, I see Boo having more difficulty with Gohan than with Kaioshin. He cross punched Gohan and used a ki ball meant to kill. Gohan fought back, Kaioshin did practically nothing.

Kaioshin got like 3 hits in, all with TK when he isn't even a fighter, and lost all his mind after seeing buu and was scared as hell, while gohan landed only one off-guard kick.
Anyways, we can agree on them being on the same level atleast, can't we?

If yes, then I'll provide some new arguments directly relating to our main debate and skip over this kaioshin thing.

[apex_pretador]

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5
Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…”

That just shows that Piccolo is much stronger than the Earthlings.

That shows piccolo "has powered up extraordinarily" not just that he's much stronger than humans, because he already was way,way , wayyyyyyyy stronger than humans probably post nail merging.
He was already strong enough to take on all humans at once even before he merged with nail.

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”
(THE SAME VEGETA ONE-SHOTTED #19 post)

Vegeta had lost a lot of power though, and used his most powerful attack to one-shot #19, so this could give advantage to Dr. Gero to absorb even more power from Vegeta. #19 had absorbed a Kamehameha from a weakened SS Goku, and a lot of power from SS Vegeta. Dr. Gero had only absorbed power from Yamcha at that point, and after that he only absorbed a normal ki blast from SS Vegeta & power from suppressed Piccolo, so I don't see how Dr. Gero could have eventually surpassed #19.

The same "lost a lot of strenght" vegeta one-shotted #19, implying that vegeta (post) >> #19 post.
Gero was implied to be above vegeta. Hell, even if he's not above vegeta, he's very close to him.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”
(GOKU ISN'T IN ANOTHER DIMENSION THAN PICCOLO)

Piccolo is concerned because Goku should have been even more powerful than that, it has nothing to do with his power IMO.

I think that this conversation implies that goku (at whatever strength he's fighting) is far above tien, so much that he's like another dimension to him, and when tien says that to piccolo saying that he so far above "us" . then piccolo doesn't seem to think that way.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

IMO, Kuririn is saying that because he is watching Piccolo beating the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans in the future... except it later turned out that these are different ones, and much weaker than the ones that actually killed Super Saiyans in the future. Otherwise, he would have said this after sensing Piccolo's ki, like everyone reacted after sensing the power of the Super Saiyans for the first time.

Piccolo only released his FP in bursts as he explained to dr gero. Also, the only one who reacted amazingly to super saiyans was tien. This remark is made when piccolo released his FP in bursts against gero. Before that, he was suppressed.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P8.2
Context: Piccolo wants to fight No.20 without Vegeta's interference
No.20: “Don’t interfere, he says…Kukkukkuh…Alright, if I drain [Piccolo]'s energy again, then [I’ll win] against Vegeta…”
(HE UNDERESTIMATED PICCOLO AND STILL THOUGHT THAT HIS POWER WILL BE ENOUGH TO BEAT VEGETA WHILE HE'S SEEN VEGETA'S POWER)

That doesn't necessarily mean that he will become stronger than Vegeta. Power isn't everything, and Dr. Gero has a very special ability than not only can make him stronger than he is during his fight, but it also limits his opponents' moves since they can't use ki blasts against him.

[/quote]
power sin't everything but when , by your numbers, vegeta is 20x stronger than piccolo , who's stronger than dr gero, then nothing else matters.
#19 only absorbed power because vegeta allowed him to. Vegeta could've one-shotted post goku #19. Gero , after seeing what vegeta dod to post goku #19, still thought that piccolo absorption can make him strong enough to take on vegeta, or atleast close gap enough so that he can atleast put up a fight with his absorption ability.

[Hugo Boss]

Though he can't sense Kaioshin's ki, somewhere in Piccolo's mind, he realizes how strong Kaioshin is. That's my point. I can't see how his remark is useless. The story doesn't provide any fact to show Piccolo was mistaken or wrong.

I'm not saying that his remark is definitely useless or wrong, but how is he supposed to know? Piccolo doesn't even know who he is, so how is he supposed to know his strength? It is made clear in BoG that he can't sense god ki.

God's memories. Dende can feel the ki of gods, so God could have felt Kaioshin's ki when he was alive a long ago. It's not very clear, but when Piccolo merged with God they seem to have shared thoughts and memories as well.

Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous, as Vegeta said, but not when compared with Goku and Vegeta, that's what Vegeta said. He was actually noting the fact Goku and Vegeta have far surpassed Kaioshin's power, to the point even the fearsome Boo isn't very impressive. Vegeta was proven wrong later about Boo being a pushover.

And exactly HOW was he supposed to be tremondous? Obviously not by "1-shotting freeza" statement, because #16 can do that & he's not tremondous. So, only think which makes kaioshin "supposed to be tremondous" is piccolo's statement. Vegeta's comment can't refer to anything else.

No, Vegeta said Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous due to his nature, he is a god above gods, that's all. In a nutshell, that line implies Vegeta and Goku surpassed this guy. Piccolo's statement has nothing to do with it.

Personally, I see Boo having more difficulty with Gohan than with Kaioshin. He cross punched Gohan and used a ki ball meant to kill. Gohan fought back, Kaioshin did practically nothing.

Kaioshin got like 3 hits in, all with TK when he isn't even a fighter, and lost all his mind after seeing buu and was scared as hell, while gohan landed only one off-guard kick.
Anyways, we can agree on them being on the same level atleast, can't we?
If yes, then I'll provide some new arguments directly relating to our main debate and skip over this kaioshin thing.

No, Kaioshin used kiai twice with no effect. Frankly, I disagree, I think Kaioshin is weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan and stronger than Piccolo, but it's fine. I have no interest in continuing this discussion. You have your perspective, I have mine.

[apex_pretador]

Though he can't sense Kaioshin's ki, somewhere in Piccolo's mind, he realizes how strong Kaioshin is. That's my point. I can't see how his remark is useless. The story doesn't provide any fact to show Piccolo was mistaken or wrong.

I'm not saying that his remark is definitely useless or wrong, but how is he supposed to know? Piccolo doesn't even know who he is, so how is he supposed to know his strength? It is made clear in BoG that he can't sense god ki.

God's memories. Dende can feel the ki of gods, so God could have felt Kaioshin's ki when he was alive a long ago. It's not very clear, but when Piccolo merged with God they seem to have shared thoughts and memories as well.
Dai Kaio's ki.
Piccolo mentions being surpassed by dai kaio.

Even if he sensed him as Kami, it was tooo long ago, and it is very likely that the comparison made hundreds of yrs ago will be faded in kami's memory when he himself has become billions of times stronger, literally.

Even if he sensed kaioshin hundreds of yrs ago, it is like letting BoZ goku letting sense full powered kid buu.

Also, babidi thinks that he is superior to kaioshin (with magic power) and he's helpless against piccolo. He even considered himself helpless before piccolo even sliced him.

Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous, as Vegeta said, but not when compared with Goku and Vegeta, that's what Vegeta said. He was actually noting the fact Goku and Vegeta have far surpassed Kaioshin's power, to the point even the fearsome Boo isn't very impressive. Vegeta was proven wrong later about Boo being a pushover.

And exactly HOW was he supposed to be tremondous? Obviously not by "1-shotting freeza" statement, because #16 can do that & he's not tremondous. So, only think which makes kaioshin "supposed to be tremondous" is piccolo's statement. Vegeta's comment can't refer to anything else.

No, Vegeta said Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous due to his nature, he is a god above gods, that's all. In a nutshell, that line implies Vegeta and Goku surpassed this guy. Piccolo's statement has nothing to do with it.

Howe was being "god of gods" make his supposed to be tremendous? King kai was "god of worlds" and a god above Kamis of various planets, and was like what ? 4000? Weaker than nappa.
The only thing which make him "supposed to be incredible" is super namek piccolo's statement.

And it is not like vegeta even cares about level of gods. He cares about the power only.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not saying God's memories are perfectly accessible in Piccolo's mind or that they're perfectly intact over the years. Piccolo clearly doesn't know the indentity of that person, he just realized something and saw no point in fighting, there isn't a need for justification behind it. It was Kaioshin who realized who Piccolo used to be beforehand.

Vegeta's line is explicitly related to Kaioshin's nature, I don't know how it can be more clear. It was Kibito who said this person is Kaioshin. Vegeta doesn't have any way to grasp his power, but judging from the events that happened in Babidi's ship he must have realized Kaioshin and Boo weren't far from his league.