Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So why were they unable to sense Kaioshin and Kibito?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So why were they unable to sense Kaioshin and Kibito?

Are you referring to the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai? If so, Kaioshin & Kibito were hiding their powers, since they wanted to keep a low profile.

[Bullza]

Didn't Frost admit that he was weakened? I'm pretty sure he would've easily rolled Piccolo if he was at full-power.

I can't remember, I meant to ask that myself I don't recall him saying he was weaker it was just something I assumed because I thought other people said it.

Either way the whole two bases theory came about because Piccolo appeared to be stronger than base Goku (and Frieza) which made no sense at all.

If they had at least said he had gotten even stronger than Frieza before turning Gold it'd still be BS but at least we'd have known for sure.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So why were they unable to sense Kaioshin and Kibito?

Are you referring to the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai? If so, Kaioshin & Kibito were hiding their powers, since they wanted to keep a low profile.

Piccolo was able to sense something from Kaioshin that allowed him to realize the difference between them.

Goku only sensed Gohan's presence on the Kaioshin world when he teleported there. He was quite surprised to see Kaioshin or Kibito there. Kaioshin is way stronger than Base Gohan, so his presence should've been immediately noted. I don't recall one instance outside of the Piccolo example where anyone senses them.

[Khin]

Kaioshin could be suppressed.Gohan was training at that time,so he at least used some of his power in base.It's the same as how Goku wasn't able to sense 1st Form Freeza's ki and use IT in ROF.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Didn't Frost admit that he was weakened? I'm pretty sure he would've easily rolled Piccolo if he was at full-power.

I can't remember, I meant to ask that myself I don't recall him saying he was weaker it was just something I assumed because I thought other people said it.

Either way the whole two bases theory came about because Piccolo appeared to be stronger than base Goku (and Frieza) which made no sense at all.

If they had at least said he had gotten even stronger than Frieza before turning Gold it'd still be BS but at least we'd have known for sure.

I think Frost said he used most of his power before fighting Piccolo, or something along those lines. He basically admitted he was nowhere near what he was capable of.

Yeah, a clear statement would've been great, but Super leaves a lot unexplained.

Kaioshin could be suppressed.Gohan was training at that time,so he at least used some of his power in base.It's the same as how Goku wasn't able to sense 1st Form Freeza's ki and use IT in ROF.

It still doesn't make sense how not one person besides Piccolo and Kibito ever noted sensing Kaioshin at any point. I don't even think Goku sensed the power of KibitoKai when they merged. He just gave them a strange look.

[Khin]

It still doesn't make sense how not one person besides Piccolo and Kibito ever noted sensing Kaioshin at any point. I don't even think Goku sensed the power of KibitoKai when they merged. He just gave them a strange look.

When Pure Boo was about to blow up the earth.Goku tries to sense Kibitoshin to use IT,only Boo's ki on the ball was getting in the way and Goku can't concentrate.Goku was also surprised that he can't find Kibitoshin's ki in episode 32.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

We don't really know where Goku intended to teleport. KibitoKai just happened to arrive in the nick of time. All he says is he only had enough time to teleport once.

The KibitoKai part is interesting, though he already had the ability to sense Gods well before he said that. He probably wasn't sensing in the right direction or something.

[Hugo Boss]

The actual problem here is there are no comments on Freeza having godly ki. In fact, I can't present you evidence that Golden Freeza doesn't have godly ki for the same reason I explained above, it's a "fiendish proof". Ask yourself: what evidence there is that he has it?

He's strong. SSG Goku is so strong because of god ki. SSB Goku is so strong because of god ki. How else would Golden Frieza be able to compete with them?

[...]

What follows from this, then, is that godly ki is just much better than regular ki, but a sufficient amount of regular ki can be stronger than a small amount of godly ki. For example, a 100 dollar bill is much better than a 1 dollar bill, but 200 1 dollar bills are worth more together than a 100 dollar bill.

I don't know whether or not Frieza has godly ki in golden form. Maybe he has such a ridiculous amount of regular ki in Golden form that he can overpower SSG Goku. But I find it likely that he has godly ki. In the end, it doesn't matter.

You brought an excellent example to answer your question. You seem to accept the possibility of surpassing SSG without godly ki, but you likely prefer there is godly ki in the middle. No problem, then.

In regards to your new claim, is it a speculation or have you actually proved it? It's up to you. What you expect from me is what we call in Laws the "fiendish proof" (probably not the best translation of "prova diabólica", but I hope you get the meaning).

What you are looking for, translation-wise, is either "Devil's Proof" or probatio diabolica.

Thank you! I admit I used Google for this. Sometimes it's difficult to select the best term in English.

[Bullza]

Gonna do one of those, mainly for my own sake. The BoG and RoF arcs are based on the movies and not Super (mainly because I just watched them)

Buu arc

SSJ3 Vegito - 400
SSJ2 Vegito - 100
Super Vegito - 50
Gohan Buu - 17
Gohan - 10
SSJ3 Gotenks - 8
SSJ2 Gotenks - 2
SSJ Gotenks - 1
SSJ3 Goku - 1
Kid Buu - 0.96
Good Buu - 0.5

BoG arc

Whis - 1,500
Beerus - 1,000
SSJG Goku - 600
Angry SSJ2 Vegeta - 50

RoF arc

Whis - 1,500
Beerus - 1,000
Golden Frieza - 800
SSJB Goku - 720
SSJB Vegeta - 685
Goku - 1.44
Vegeta - 1.37
Frieza Final Form - 1.3
SSJ Gohan - 1.08
Gohan - 0.022
Shisami - 0.0.22
Piccolo - 0.0.22

Champa arc

Whis - 1,500
Beerus - 1,000
Champa - 950
SSJB Goku - 790
SSJB Vegeta - 755
SSJ Goku - 79
SSJ Vegeta - 75.5
SSJ Cabba - 68.5
Magetta - 66
Frost (Final Form) - 52
Piccolo - ???
Frost (Third Form) - 1.75
Goku - 1.58
Vegeta - 1.51
Cabba - 1.44
Botamo - 1.37

[ZombieVito]

I just can't for the life of me see Goku and Vegeta training an aditional 6-8 months with Whis + 3 years in the RoSaT and not surpass Freeza.

[Cipher]

I just can't for the life of me see Goku and Vegeta training an aditional 6-8 months with Whis + 3 years in the RoSaT and not surpass Freeza.

I assumed that was literally the exact purpose of inserting that training time into the story -- to get them back on top of full-power Freeza.

And yeah, he was barely above Goku during their fight. It wasn't completely one-sided.

[Bullza]

Well Frieza was a good chunk stronger than Goku and Vegeta and Vegeta said they'd get a bit stronger.

It depends if that "bit" was brought to overcome the difference between Golden Frieza and SSJB.

Now there's some info coming out from the upcoming episodes and was it Hit or Cabba that was supposed to be frozen in fright over Champa? If it's Hit then it shows they're still considerably below the likes of Beerus and Champa.

[Cipher]

Was Freeza that much stronger? He was stronger than Goku at full power, but it wasn't the absolute beat-down we usually see when one character is in a completely different tier from another.

[Khin]

Was Freeza that much stronger? He was stronger than Goku at full power, but it wasn't the absolute beat-down we usually see when one character is in a completely different tier from another.

Freeza was trashing Goku before the former starts to lose stamina.Goku only landed some few hits.

SSj Blue Goku [ROF] : 7

Golden Freeza : 8

[Bullza]

The gap between the two wasn't as big as what I thought before rewatching the movie but he still had a clear advantage over him.

Both Whis and Goku said that he was having trouble with him. Depending on how little improved in 3 years then I don't think it's all too unbelievable to think they're just on the same level now.

Perhaps in the episodes to come with Hit and Monaca and Champa they'll give an indication of how they all compare. Frieza was supposed to be no match at all for Beerus whereas Monaca is.

If Goku doesn't appear that much weaker than Monaca then he probably has surpassed Frieza.

[dbzfan7]

If that Kaio-Ken thing turns out to be true, then I think that god scale Toriyama made 15/10/6 will no longer exist. Otherwise that would mean Goku is stronger than Beerus, even though Toriyama has no plans to make that a reality just yet. But then we still have the 10% line in Super....which I guess could be BS....I dunno.

Trying to make sense of Super logic is like putting a puzzle together that is missing a bunch of pieces, with the current pieces we have being torn up as well .

[Bullza]

I was just about to say that. I just got done reading that interview and thought the same thing.

I'd say they're gonna retcon his power. In RoF Whis said that Goku and Vegeta could fight on par with Beerus, was that said in the series?

Between having a new form and over 4 years of training he shouldn't be that far off Beerus. If he uses Kaioken and still isn't as strong as Beerus then they've definitley changed things up.

Again over the next few episodes, with Hit and Monaca and Champa acting up then it should give us an idea of where things stand.

Beerus seems to fear Monaca to an extent so we'll have to see how far Monaca is above Goku.

[Doctor.]

The Kaioken will most likely screw over the power levels even more, I think we should just give up guys

[pacz360]

Why don't you guys lay off the numbers and wait to see the episode this weekened and future to get an idea on the ssjbkaioken crap