Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Why does it feel like most people in this thread have given up trying to make a power scale that actually makes sense. I guess it's because everyone's scale requires something to be retconned but wasn't officially on order for it to make sense.

[ZombieVito]

I still see no problem with the 6-10-15 numbers. Goku's Kaioken will most likely be exactly like the Paikuhan filler. Usable for a very short while and very exhausting.

[TheMikado]

The problem is Toriyama said Goku wouldn't surpass or even get close to Beerus' power level. On the 6-10-15 scale just the basic Kaioken would put him past Beerus by a decent margin.

[LightBing]

Aren't almost all Super Saiyan transformations, rage boosts. Did Goku "steal" Gohan supposed trait by turning into one against Freeza? Why didn't Goku turned Super Saiyan after Tambourine killed Kuririn? I guess that makes the first time he did it pretty stupid, when he need it before, right?

Notwithstanding liking or not, the Vegeta moment. The arguments above don't have any logic behind it. Only if one forces it. Never was it said Gohan was the only that could power up due to rage, or whatever other stuff people are imagining.

It almost seems you guys just want some punches to throw. You guys can complain all you want about it, but when done in those terms it's hard to take people seriously and see the reasonable arguments.

You don't seem to understand the logic issue here. We have uber God SSB Kaioken multipled Goku after 3 years of RoSaT and additional Whis training coming up in a few episodes and Toriyama reveals that not only is it not surpassing Beerus but it's not even close.

Then we have preSSG SSJ2 Vegeta rage boosting to close to 10% of Beerus beyond even SSJ3.

On the power scale this means the combination of stacking God powers, SSJ and Kaioken would all yield a less than x20 boost against Gokus SSJ3 form while Vegeta gets like a x100 (10,000%) boost just because he gets angry.

I don't see why there's a need to have a comparison made between the two. We also don't know how the Kaioken while be used, if it's indeed like the old Kaioken then the 6-10-15 scale has to be throw out. I made a post here before about it: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1071163

I don't see the problem with Vegeta getting such an increase, the story is full of these type of situations, I don't see how one can condemn this moment, without doing the same to the entirety of Dragon Ball.

Mr.Toriyama didn't care about any 10%, the line isn't in the movie. In the movie he simply got stronger than Goku, which is the whole point of that scene. Besides reinforcing the love Vegeta has for his family. Honestly if people want to complain, do it to whoever in Toei included that line. I can't prove Mr.Toriyama didn't added it but it seems very, very unlikely.
Which is also to say, remove the 10% line and the 6-10-15 scale is still intact, depending on the Kaioken shenanigans.

[Chiki]

Ok well, I can't post threads on this board for some reason and my Reddit thread hasn't been approved yet, so I'm posting this wall of text here.

For a while now, we've known that there is something in the DB universe called godly ki, which Beerus possesses, but the only thing we've known about it is that it cannot be sensed by mortals like Piccolo and Krillin. In this thread I want to try and shed some light on it, though everything I say might turn out wrong in the end because it's DB and Toriyama changes his mind a lot. But I think with some reasoning you can draw strong conclusions that explain a lot about what godly ki is.

There are three things we know for sure:
1. Godly ki exists.
2. Godly ki cannot be sensed by most mortals (unless they have trained to achieve godly ki like Base Vegeta, Goku and maybe Dende).
3. Godly ki is often possessed by extremely strong characters (Beerus, Whis, SSB Goku and Vegeta, SSG Goku) but there might be exceptions (Dende, and since Dende can sense it and he's a god; North Kai and Supreme Kais). Alternatively, Dende might not have godly ki, but he can sense it. He might just have a teeny tiny amount of it.

I want to explain why 2 and 3 are the case. But first, I need to shoot down an incorrect assumption that has been getting too much traction. _People with godly ki are not automatically invincible against mortals_. We've known this since BoG: if you watch really closely, you can see SS2 Rageta draw a tiny amount of blood by punching Beerus in the mouth. Since he can do this, it follows automatically that Beerus is not invincible since he can take some damage from a mortal like Vegeta. Further, it is likely that Dende has some godly ki (he might just be able to sense it since he's a god, but I think all gods automatically get some godly ki). But he is a pathetic weakling. So Dende is not invincible, so having some godly ki does not automatically lead to being invincible against mortals.

I like to compare regular ki and godly ki with the following analogy: compare a 1 dollar bill (regular ki) to a 100 dollar bill (godly ki). An equal amount (in terms of bills) of a 1 dollar bill is much less (weaker) than a 100 dollar bill. But compare 200 1 dollar bills to a 100 dollar bill. Then regular ki can beat godly ki. This is why Base Goku is far more powerful than a weakling like Dende, and why SS2 Rageta can harm 10% Beerus.

Now that's over with, let's start by trying to explain 2. Why can't godly ki be sensed by mortals? I want to direct your attention to two things that happened during DBS:

1. The reason Vegeta could not compete with SSG Goku is because his ki leaked out as he trained. It was just an incorrect way of training. As Vegeta trained with Whis, he learned how to prevent his ki from leaking out. What this indicates is that if you want to become more powerful, you need more ki inside your body, and not leaking out.
2. Beerus can use a "super concentrated ki blast" as seen in one of the episodes during his battle with Goku in DBS.

What if godly ki was nothing more than super concentrated ki inside your body? The reason SSG Goku is so strong because after he takes the power of 5 other Saiyans, his ki becomes super concentrated. The reason Vegeta becomes so much more powerful by training with Whis is because his ki stops leaking out and the ki inside his body becomes more concentrated.

How does this relate to 2? Perhaps the reason why mortals can't sense godly ki is because their ki sensors inside their heads aren't able to pick up ki when it's super concentrated. And the reason gods can is either A. because they have special training to be able to sense it or B. because they are gods and they at least have a small amount of godly ki (I find B much more likely than A. A is stupid, why wouldn't a god have godly ki? Maybe Dende just has a smaller amount than North Kai who has a smaller amount than Supreme Kai).

Now, why is it that some characters who are strong like Beerus and Whis have godly ki, while a weakling like Dende does too? Simply because having godly ki is a characteristic of the gods. Though godly ki is better than regular ki, simply having it doesn't mean you are strong. Dende has a tiny amount of it and he is still weak. Just because you have godly ki does not mean you are strong.

===

This part of the thread is optional. But I want to defend the idea that Goku and Vegeta are not using godly ki in this tournament yet (they will against Hit, and Vegeta used it for a second against Cabba). There are many, many problems with the idea that Goku and Vegeta are using godly ki against their U6 opponents:

1. This would cheapen the idea of Buu being the ultimate threat to the universe if guys like Botamo, Frost, Piccolo, Cabba, Magetta etc. can beat him in one hit. We know for a fact at this point that Base Goku post SSG >>>>>>>> Kid Buu.
2. Piccolo's ridiculous power boost. He went from Cell Junior level in RoF to OHKOing Super Vegito! Wtf.
3. Goku's comment to Frost in the manga that he can become stronger by training. If Frost is RoF Frieza level, it means he trains. And you don't tell someone who trains to train, it just makes no logical sense.
4. It cheapens the idea of godly ki if there are too many people with it running around. Beerus, Whis, Hit, Goku and Vegeta and maybe Monaka are enough. We don't need Piccolo having godly ki out of nowhere, Cabba, Magetta, Frost etc. as well. It, again, cheapens the idea of Buu being the greatest threat to the universe.
5. Goku really wanted Buu to fight in the tournament, meaning he would have done well against U6, even though he doesn't train at all and eats and sleeps all day. How would a guy who doesn't train get a ridiculous power boost that would allow him to gain godly ki? I don't think so.

We already know Goku and Vegeta aren't taking anyone seriously except Hit anyway. So there is nothing wrong about the conclusion that they are not yet tapping into SSG power in Base or SS1. They can turn it on or off. Base Goku has not been using god ki yet. For example, it follows from this that Frost is Namek Frieza level (maybe above actually, since he gave Piccolo who is Cell Junior level trouble).

[TheMikado]

^ the problem with your theory is that you have to make too many assumptions. For instance what about base Goku vs final form Frieza? How did Goku get to Buu levels in base without using God Ki? If God Ki is part of Gokus base then Frost is even stronger?

@ lightingbing the 10% comment is in the movie and the 70% comment as well. Super also have the 10% comment so that's at least consistent. I think the manga may have it as well.

[Chiki]

^ the problem with your theory is that you have to make too many assumptions. For instance what about base Goku vs final form Frieza? How did Goku get to Buu levels in base without using God Ki? If God Ki is part of Gokus base then Frost is even stronger?

@ lightingbing the 10% comment is in the movie and the 70% comment as well. Super also have the 10% comment so that's at least consistent. I think the manga may have it as well.

What makes you think that Base Goku wasn't using god ki against Final Form Frieza? Of course he was. My theory says he does.

They can turn it on or off. Base Goku has not been using god ki yet. Frost is Namek Frieza level (maybe above actually, since he gave Piccolo who is Cell Junior level trouble).

[Bullza]

As of now I'm going with the fairly straightforward belief that

1. Base Goku and Vegeta (and Frieza) are above SSJ3 Goku (Z) and Kid Buu but by not by some ridiculous amount.

2. Turning Super Saiyan still makes them 50 times stronger but still nowhere near God level.

3. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta would have still been stronger than Cabba if he'd turned into a SSJ2 and then a SSJ3 in the fight so SSJB is possibly at least 10x stronger than SSJ. This makes SSJB at least 500x base.

If these three things were the case it'd make things a lot simpler. Botamo, Frost, Cabba, Piccolo and Gohan wouldn't be close to God tier as they probably shouldn't be. Only Hit would be God tier.

The only thing that comes to mind that contradicts this is the base and SSJ form being shown to be God tier in BoG but I'd go with the theory that Goku (and Vegeta) are just channelling their God Ki into their SSJB form and that's the only time it gets used now.

Is there anything else that contradicts those 3 points above?

[Chiki]

As of now I'm going with the fairly straightforward belief that

1. Base Goku and Vegeta (and Frieza) are above SSJ3 Goku (Z) and Kid Buu but by not by some ridiculous amount.

2. Turning Super Saiyan still makes them 50 times stronger but still nowhere near God level.

3. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta would have still been stronger than Cabba if he'd turned into a SSJ2 and then a SSJ3 in the fight so SSJB is possibly at least 10x stronger than SSJ. This makes SSJB at least 500x base.

If these three things were the case it'd make things a lot simpler. Botamo, Frost, Cabba, Piccolo and Gohan wouldn't be close to God tier as they probably shouldn't be. Only Hit would be God tier.

The only thing that comes to mind that contradicts this is the base and SSJ form being shown to be God tier in BoG but I'd go with the theory that Goku (and Vegeta) are just channelling their God Ki into their SSJB form and that's the only time it gets used now.

Is there anything else that contradicts those 3 points above?

If Base Goku and Vegeta can compete with Final Form Frieza, how can they do this according to your theory, without god power? You can't tell us how Base Goku and Base Vegeta got such a ridiculous power boost when Final Form Frieza has been training as well.

[LightBing]

^ the problem with your theory is that you have to make too many assumptions. For instance what about base Goku vs final form Frieza? How did Goku get to Buu levels in base without using God Ki? If God Ki is part of Gokus base then Frost is even stronger?

@ lightingbing the 10% comment is in the movie and the 70% comment as well. Super also have the 10% comment so that's at least consistent. I think the manga may have it as well.

The 10% comment isn't in the movie. The 70% comment isn't in the anime. I don't remember in the manga. I'm 99% sure.

[Lord Beerus]

As of now I'm going with the fairly straightforward belief that

1. Base Goku and Vegeta (and Frieza) are above SSJ3 Goku (Z) and Kid Buu but by not by some ridiculous amount.

2. Turning Super Saiyan still makes them 50 times stronger but still nowhere near God level.

3. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta would have still been stronger than Cabba if he'd turned into a SSJ2 and then a SSJ3 in the fight so SSJB is possibly at least 10x stronger than SSJ. This makes SSJB at least 500x base.

If these three things were the case it'd make things a lot simpler. Botamo, Frost, Cabba, Piccolo and Gohan wouldn't be close to God tier as they probably shouldn't be. Only Hit would be God tier.

The only thing that comes to mind that contradicts this is the base and SSJ form being shown to be God tier in BoG but I'd go with the theory that Goku (and Vegeta) are just channelling their God Ki into their SSJB form and that's the only time it gets used now.

Is there anything else that contradicts those 3 points above?

If Base Goku and Vegeta can compete with Final Form Frieza, how can they do this according to your theory, without god power? You can't tell us how Base Goku and Base Vegeta got such a ridiculous power boost when Final Form Frieza has been training as well.

I personally think Base Goku/Vegeta and Final Form Freeza were never that powerful to even begin with. I mean, the best we've seen from Freeza prior to reaching his Final Form in the Super was critically wound SSJ Gohan with some death beams and kill Piccolo, which really isn't all that impressive. Personally, I'd still peg both Base Goku/Vegeta and Final Form Freeza below Pure Boo level.

[Chiki]

I personally think Base Goku/Vegeta and Final Form Freeza were never that powerful to even begin with. I mean, the best we've seen from Freeza prior to reaching his Final Form in the Super was critically wound SSJ Gohan with some death beams and kill Piccolo, which really isn't all that impressive. Personally, I'd still peg both Base Goku/Vegeta and Final Form Freeza below Pure Boo level.

The problem I brought up with Bullza's view was not that. Rather, it was the gap between Base Goku/Vegeta and Final Form Frieza.

We know in BoG, Beerus said Base Goku wasn't as strong as Final Form Frieza. Both Goku and Frieza have trained since then.

So the gap between Base Goku and Final Form Frieza should still exist. But in Super and RoF, Base Goku had an easy time with Final Form Frieza and definitely outclassed him. How is this possible without godly ki?

[TheMikado]

^ the problem with your theory is that you have to make too many assumptions. For instance what about base Goku vs final form Frieza? How did Goku get to Buu levels in base without using God Ki? If God Ki is part of Gokus base then Frost is even stronger?

@ lightingbing the 10% comment is in the movie and the 70% comment as well. Super also have the 10% comment so that's at least consistent. I think the manga may have it as well.

What makes you think that Base Goku wasn't using god ki against Final Form Frieza? Of course he was. My theory says he does.

They can turn it on or off. Base Goku has not been using god ki yet. Frost is Namek Frieza level (maybe above actually, since he gave Piccolo who is Cell Junior level trouble).

So here's the next problem with your theory then. If God Ki lets then get to SSJ3 levels which are 400x base, why would Vegeta go SSB especially if we go with the theory that he was hiding it from hit? He could have gone base God and done the same thing to Cabba. ok your theory non God SSJ would only be 50-100x while turning on base God would be 400x. SSB is overkill and a waste and defeats the purpose of hiding it rather than just one shutting everyone in their base God forms.

[kinisking]

lol "cheapen the idea of Boo being the ultimate threat"... Really? Kinda like Freeza who was supposed to be the universes strongest was trumped by earth made cyborgs?

[Bullza]

If Base Goku and Vegeta can compete with Final Form Frieza, how can they do this according to your theory, without god power? You can't tell us how Base Goku and Base Vegeta got such a ridiculous power boost when Final Form Frieza has been training as well.

Training. Vegeta spent 6 months training with Whis. Then Goku and Vegeta spent several months training with Whis before Frieza was revived. Then they spent another 4 months training after Frieza was revived. Then they spent an unknown amount of time training in the wannabe ROSAT.

They had over a years worth of intense training with the most powerful being in the Universe.

They also learned how to power up and fight without leaking their Ki which could mean their base forms are now able to use more power than before.

Chalk it up to that possibly. Maybe Vegeta's mutation boost that drastically powered up his SSJ2 form did the same for his base form aswell.

If Piccolo can be made to be stronger than Frieza with a fraction of the time spent training and without any special methods of training then it doesn't seem so far fetched.

In GT, Goku was above his SSJ3 self and he had no God Ki so it wouldn't be a first.

[LowRyder2005]

^ the problem with your theory is that you have to make too many assumptions. For instance what about base Goku vs final form Frieza? How did Goku get to Buu levels in base without using God Ki? If God Ki is part of Gokus base then Frost is even stronger?

@ lightingbing the 10% comment is in the movie and the 70% comment as well. Super also have the 10% comment so that's at least consistent. I think the manga may have it as well.

What makes you think that Base Goku wasn't using god ki against Final Form Frieza? Of course he was. My theory says he does.

They can turn it on or off. Base Goku has not been using god ki yet. Frost is Namek Frieza level (maybe above actually, since he gave Piccolo who is Cell Junior level trouble).

So here's the next problem with your theory then. If God Ki lets then get to SSJ3 levels which are 400x base, why would Vegeta go SSB especially if we go with the theory that he was hiding it from hit? He could have gone base God and done the same thing to Cabba. ok your theory non God SSJ would only be 50-100x while turning on base God would be 400x. SSB is overkill and a waste and defeats the purpose of hiding it rather than just one shutting everyone in their base God forms.

I believe that's a non-problem, though.
To me it appeared like he expressly wanted to show "the latest Super Saiyan form" and the highest realm of power Cabba could reach through training. Now, if Vegeta had stressed he had the need to turn Blue to beat him it would be a different story, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

[pacz360]

So people are forgetting that goku as a ssj during bog kept up with beerus while in previous fight couldn't do shit to him as ssj3 the same fight where his friends could sense him and forgetting that both goku and vegeta both train with whis for months and beerus even offering a match with them depsite being above them also forgetting that beerus mentioned goku didn't lose the god form at all yet people here thinking there base forms have gotten weaker and u6 fighters barring hit is only namek /cell saga level yeah... Bullshit.

[Chiki]

^ the problem with your theory is that you have to make too many assumptions. For instance what about base Goku vs final form Frieza? How did Goku get to Buu levels in base without using God Ki? If God Ki is part of Gokus base then Frost is even stronger?

@ lightingbing the 10% comment is in the movie and the 70% comment as well. Super also have the 10% comment so that's at least consistent. I think the manga may have it as well.

What makes you think that Base Goku wasn't using god ki against Final Form Frieza? Of course he was. My theory says he does.

They can turn it on or off. Base Goku has not been using god ki yet. Frost is Namek Frieza level (maybe above actually, since he gave Piccolo who is Cell Junior level trouble).

So here's the next problem with your theory then. If God Ki lets then get to SSJ3 levels which are 400x base, why would Vegeta go SSB especially if we go with the theory that he was hiding it from hit? He could have gone base God and done the same thing to Cabba. ok your theory non God SSJ would only be 50-100x while turning on base God would be 400x. SSB is overkill and a waste and defeats the purpose of hiding it rather than just one shutting everyone in their base God forms.

He did it to show off the latest transformation. Someone else already answered this.

Training. Vegeta spent 6 months training with Whis. Then Goku and Vegeta spent several months training with Whis before Frieza was revived. Then they spent another 4 months training after Frieza was revived. Then they spent an unknown amount of time training in the wannabe ROSAT.

They had over a years worth of intense training with the most powerful being in the Universe.

They also learned how to power up and fight without leaking their Ki which could mean their base forms are now able to use more power than before.

Chalk it up to that possibly. Maybe Vegeta's mutation boost that drastically powered up his SSJ2 form did the same for his base form aswell.

If Piccolo can be made to be stronger than Frieza with a fraction of the time spent training and without any special methods of training then it doesn't seem so far fetched.

In GT, Goku was above his SSJ3 self and he had no God Ki so it wouldn't be a first.

Training doesn't account for it. Frieza got much, much more out of training than Goku did, so the gap should have still existed. Frieza is not only a bigger prodigy than Goku, he's also never trained in his life. So the gap should have been much, much bigger, when in reality, Goku has the edge. The answer to this must be god ki. There's just no way around it.

beerus mentioned goku didn't lose the god form at all yet people here thinking there base forms have gotten weaker and u6 fighters barring hit is only namek /cell saga level yeah... Bullshit.

So you don't understand my view either. My view says that he still has the god power; he can just turn it on or off.............

[dbzfan7]

Friendly reminder guys. There is no right or wrong answer. Super is a clusterfuck, so really nobody can be right. No matter what you think, there is at least one point that shoots everyone's argument in the foot. So speculate, and don't discriminate.

[Chiki]

Friendly reminder guys. There is no right or wrong answer. Super is a clusterfuck, so really nobody can be right. No matter what you think, there is at least one point that shoots everyone's argument in the foot. So speculate, and don't discriminate.

You are right in a sense, because I think Toriyama hasn't thought about this anywhere nearly as deeply as we have, so it's entirely possible that there is no right or wrong answer.

But I have to disagree that there is one point which shoots my argument in the foot. I can't see anything wrong with the view that Base Goku can turn his godly ki on or off.