Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Goku and Vegeta never; I repeat never, have been shown to have God Ki in Base or SSJ

Yes they have, they were able to compete with Final Form Frieza.

You guys were all fine and dandy about Goku being able to use god ki in Base when RoF first came out. Why not now?

The characters could feel Goku's ki when fighting Final Form Freeza, I don't see your point about being able to compete with Final Form Freeza, why would God Ki be necessary? Freeza trained, Goku and Vegeta trained. The results are what they showed us.

I was never in the group that thought Goku had God Ki in base, I believed he was comparable to SSJG in base. But new information made me acknowledged Whis explanation.

I'll put the quote here by the one thousand time, but it seems people are choosing to ignore it. Kinda like the "Goku can't defeat Freeza in base" said by Beerus. It's harder to get more direct than this:

Spoiler:

Episode 24
Minute: 5
Context: Goten and Trunks carry Piccolo's body back to God's Palace, as instructed by their parents.

Trunks: "Can you feel that, Goten?"
Goten: "Yeah, what an amazing ki!"
Trunks: "Man, I really wanted to see it!"
Goten: "Yeah, but we have to go."
Trunks: "Alright, let's speed up, Goten! We'll hurry to God's Palace, and then go back at express speed!"

Significance: Some groups mistranslated Trunks' last line, making it sound like they were going to turn around and go back right away, while presumably leaving Piccolo's body in the nearest ditch.

Minute: 21
Context: Goku transforms into SSGSS.

Kuririn: "I can't sense any ki from Goku at all now!"
Gohan: "It seems he's somehow become a Super Saiyan God."
Kuririn: "But Gohan, take a good look at him. Goku's hair is blue!"
Tenshinhan: "If I remember it right, it was red when he fought Beerus."
Kame-Sen'nin: "Has Goku reached a level even higher than what he was at back then?"

[Chiki]

The characters could feel Goku's ki when fighting Final Form Freeza, I don't see your point about being able to compete with Final Form Freeza, why would God Ki be necessary? Freeza trained, Goku and Vegeta trained. The results are what they showed us.

I was never in the group that thought Goku had God Ki in base, I believed he was comparable to SSJG in base. But new information made me acknowledged Whis explanation.

I'll put the quote here by the one thousand time, but it seems people are choosing to ignore it. Kinda like the "Goku can't defeat Freeza in base" said by Beerus. It's harder to get more direct than this:

Spoiler:

Episode 24
Minute: 5
Context: Goten and Trunks carry Piccolo's body back to God's Palace, as instructed by their parents.

Trunks: "Can you feel that, Goten?"
Goten: "Yeah, what an amazing ki!"
Trunks: "Man, I really wanted to see it!"
Goten: "Yeah, but we have to go."
Trunks: "Alright, let's speed up, Goten! We'll hurry to God's Palace, and then go back at express speed!"

Significance: Some groups mistranslated Trunks' last line, making it sound like they were going to turn around and go back right away, while presumably leaving Piccolo's body in the nearest ditch.

Minute: 21
Context: Goku transforms into SSGSS.

Kuririn: "I can't sense any ki from Goku at all now!"
Gohan: "It seems he's somehow become a Super Saiyan God."
Kuririn: "But Gohan, take a good look at him. Goku's hair is blue!"
Tenshinhan: "If I remember it right, it was red when he fought Beerus."
Kame-Sen'nin: "Has Goku reached a level even higher than what he was at back then?"

I've already explained why Base Goku needs god ki to compete with Final Form Frieza. The gap between then was massive (I'm quoting Beerus's line when he said that Base Goku couldn't compete with Final Form Frieza). Both trained. How did it go from FF Frieza >>> Base Goku to Base Goku >> FF Frieza when Frieza trained for the first time in his life?

Base Goku has regular ki mixed with god ki. He draws out some of SSG's power, but not all of it.

[Bullza]

We do need the two base theory. If base is 1/50th of SS tier which isn't anywhere near close to God tier, how was Base post-God Goku >>>>>>>>. SSJ3 Goku in BoG? That makes no sense.

But we don't know how much stronger base is than SSJ3. It could be a little or could it be a lot but it really could just be down to the training they did and maybe the God power has a little something to do with it.

They have never made it clear that there are two bases. It's possible because he can turn the God power on if he can go from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue but nothing like that has ever happened with base, yet.

The fight against Beerus showed base to be God tier. When they were on Beerus' planet training and when they fought in the Tournament and when Goku fought Uub their base was shown not to be God tier. When they fought Frieza it is not clear, I'd assume no because SSJB looks to be much more powerful.

Base being like a 6 and then SSJB being a 7.5 is kinda stupid to me.

But like I said from an out universe perspective why would they make it like that? Why would they have another base form that's stronger than Super Saiyan that was shown to be more powerful than base? It's unnecessarily confusing.

[LightBing]

The characters could feel Goku's ki when fighting Final Form Freeza, I don't see your point about being able to compete with Final Form Freeza, why would God Ki be necessary? Freeza trained, Goku and Vegeta trained. The results are what they showed us.

I was never in the group that thought Goku had God Ki in base, I believed he was comparable to SSJG in base. But new information made me acknowledged Whis explanation.

I'll put the quote here by the one thousand time, but it seems people are choosing to ignore it. Kinda like the "Goku can't defeat Freeza in base" said by Beerus. It's harder to get more direct than this:

Spoiler:

Episode 24
Minute: 5
Context: Goten and Trunks carry Piccolo's body back to God's Palace, as instructed by their parents.

Trunks: "Can you feel that, Goten?"
Goten: "Yeah, what an amazing ki!"
Trunks: "Man, I really wanted to see it!"
Goten: "Yeah, but we have to go."
Trunks: "Alright, let's speed up, Goten! We'll hurry to God's Palace, and then go back at express speed!"

Significance: Some groups mistranslated Trunks' last line, making it sound like they were going to turn around and go back right away, while presumably leaving Piccolo's body in the nearest ditch.

Minute: 21
Context: Goku transforms into SSGSS.

Kuririn: "I can't sense any ki from Goku at all now!"
Gohan: "It seems he's somehow become a Super Saiyan God."
Kuririn: "But Gohan, take a good look at him. Goku's hair is blue!"
Tenshinhan: "If I remember it right, it was red when he fought Beerus."
Kame-Sen'nin: "Has Goku reached a level even higher than what he was at back then?"

I've already explained why Base Goku needs god ki to compete with Final Form Frieza. The gap between then was massive (I'm quoting Beerus's line when he said that Base Goku couldn't compete with Final Form Frieza). Both trained. How did it go from FF Frieza >>> Base Goku to Base Goku >> FF Frieza when Frieza trained for the first time in his life?

Base Goku has regular ki mixed with god ki. He draws out some of SSG's power, but not all of it.

You're imposing rules that don't exist. Goku trained, that's why we got stronger than Freeza even if the later also trained. Characters do it all the time. Your theory is contradicted by the lines I quoted.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

[*]We know from the video-games that Goku can turn off the SSG power in his base form (why would they create a transformation that doesn't exist for video-games?!), and that in his base form with SSG powers, FnF Goku has surpassed SSG Goku from BoG.

I would very careful in regard to using the video games to fill the blanks in regards to what happens in the main story. I mean, if we're going to take what happens in the video games literally, then Bardock really did become a Super Saiyan and GT takes place in an alternate timeline.

Your examples are completely different. Base Goku transforming into Base with SSG power & being described as a Saiyan that has surpassed Super Saiyan God was made in relation & in order to promote the Resurrection "F" movie, it wasn't part of a different story like GT or EoB, neither was it a what-if form like SS3 Vegeta or SS4 Broli.

[Lord Beerus]

[*]We know from the video-games that Goku can turn off the SSG power in his base form (why would they create a transformation that doesn't exist for video-games?!), and that in his base form with SSG powers, FnF Goku has surpassed SSG Goku from BoG.

I would very careful in regard to using the video games to fill the blanks in regards to what happens in the main story. I mean, if we're going to take what happens in the video games literally, then Bardock really did become a Super Saiyan and GT takes place in an alternate timeline.

Your examples are completely different. Base Goku transforming into Base with SSG power & being described as a Saiyan that has surpassed Super Saiyan God was made in relation & in order to promote the Resurrection "F" movie, it wasn't part of a different story like GT or EoB, neither was it a what-if form like SS3 Vegeta or SS4 Broli.

But Super has ultimately dismissed the notion of Saiyan Beyond God even being a thing. Hell, Resurrection F itself kinda shits on the whose Base = Super Saiyan God theory as everyone was able to keep track of Goku and Freeza's battle. Saiyan Beyond God is ultimately just a form that never happened and only exists in the universe of Dragon Ball Heroes.

[Chiki]

We do need the two base theory. If base is 1/50th of SS tier which isn't anywhere near close to God tier, how was Base post-God Goku >>>>>>>>. SSJ3 Goku in BoG? That makes no sense.

But we don't know how much stronger base is than SSJ3. It could be a little or could it be a lot but it really could just be down to the training they did and maybe the God power has a little something to do with it.

They have never made it clear that there are two bases. It's possible because he can turn the God power on if he can go from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue but nothing like that has ever happened with base, yet.

The fight against Beerus showed base to be God tier. When they were on Beerus' planet training and when they fought in the Tournament and when Goku fought Uub their base was shown not to be God tier. When they fought Frieza it is not clear, I'd assume no because SSJB looks to be much more powerful.

Base being like a 6 and then SSJB being a 7.5 is kinda stupid to me.

But like I said from an out universe perspective why would they make it like that? Why would they have another base form that's stronger than Super Saiyan that was shown to be more powerful than base? It's unnecessarily confusing.

It's way way way stronger than SSJ3. Think about it: Base Goku could compete with 70% Beerus. SSJ2 Raging Vegeta wasn't anywhere near as powerful as 10% Beerus, even though Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku when he was mad.

Are you sure nothing like that has happened with base? Maybe the white aura is what signifies godly ki in base. We haven't seen Goku or Vegeta with a white aura during the tournament arc yet, but we did see them in RoF, and I personally think it's very clear that Final Form RoF Frieza is way above any of the U6 fighters apart from Hit.

Well, Base is probably less than 6 because Base Goku's ki in RoF can be felt. My guess is that he has regular and godly ki mixed. So it might be a 3 or a 4 or something. But I don't think Base being 6 and SSB being 7.5 is that stupid. With regular ki, SS is a x50 power boost. But if godly ki is a different version of regular ki, maybe going SSB with godly ki just can't boost your ki that much anymore.

It's true they never made it clear. That's why we have to use reasoning to get to the bottom of this.

You're imposing rules that don't exist. Goku trained, that's why we got stronger than Freeza even if the later also trained. Characters do it all the time. Your theory is contradicted by the lines I quoted.

It makes zero sense for Goku to be stronger than Final Form Frieza at base when Frieza never trained a day in his life and he was a bigger prodigy than Goku. Absolutely no sense. It's like saying that the Pope is a closet Muslim. I'm sorry, but if you can't see what's wrong with your reasoning then I can't have a debate with you.

[LightBing]

It makes zero sense for Goku to be stronger than Final Form Frieza at base when Frieza never trained a day in his life and he was a bigger prodigy than Goku. Absolutely no sense. It's like saying that the Pope is a closet Muslim. I'm sorry, but if you can't see what's wrong with your reasoning then I can't have a debate with you.

Right back at you.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But Super has ultimately dismissed the notion of Saiyan Beyond God even being a thing.

How?

[Lord Beerus]

But Super has ultimately dismissed the notion of Saiyan Beyond God even being a thing.

How?

In Episode 24, Goten and Trunks could sense an incredible ki, which was undoubtedly coming from Goku and Freeza when they were fighting. If Saiyan Beyond God was indeed a thing, then Goten and Trunks wouldn't have been able to sense Goku's ki to begin with. And then in Episode 37, Vegeta transforms into a SSJB while he was already a SSJ, which strongly implies he can tap into his God ki at will, meaning he never had Godly ki in his base form to begin with.

[dbgtFO]

Hell, Resurrection F itself kinda shits on the whose Base = Super Saiyan God theory as everyone was able to keep track of Goku and Freeza's battle.

No, in episode 24, Gohan specifically points out he can't follow the battle and Krillin is amazed by this. Jaco the guy with the super eyes apparently is the only one capable of watching the fight.

Are you sure nothing like that has happened with base? Maybe the white aura is what signifies godly ki in base. We haven't seen Goku or Vegeta with a white aura during the tournament arc yet, but we did see them in RoF, and I personally think it's very clear that Final Form RoF Frieza is way above any of the U6 fighters apart from Hit.

Yes agreed. For consistency's sake at least. Goku powered up with a white aura in RoF and looked all kinds of badass, but in the universal Tournament he hasn't done so.
If it's supposed to be the same, it certainly isn't consistent.
I'm hoping Vegeta powers up to white aura in the forthcoming episode, as that's basically the last chance the series has of making this an established thing, because it'd pretty dumb for Goku not to start at SSB after seeing Vegeta get stomped.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In Episode 24, Goten and Trunks could sense an incredible ki, which was undoubtedly coming from Goku and Freeza when they were fighting. If Saiyan Beyond God was indeed a thing, then Goten and Trunks wouldn't have been able to sense Goku's ki to begin with. And then in Episode 37, Vegeta transforms into a SSJB while he was already a SSJ, which strongly implies he can tap into his God ki at will, meaning he never had Godly ki in his base form to begin with.

Having the power of SSG & having god ki are 2 different things. SS Goku against Beerus had the power of SSG and was confirmed to be exactly as strong as SSG, but he didn't have god ki.

On the other hand, base Goku could destroy the ki ball that SS Goku couldn't even push back by punching it to its core, implying that the difference between base & SS is much smaller than x50 now. However, in Champa arc, SS gives the regular x50 boost, or Cabba, a regular Saiyan, would have been much stronger than SS Vegeta after he became a Super Saiyan.

[Chiki]

But Super has ultimately dismissed the notion of Saiyan Beyond God even being a thing.

How?

In Episode 24, Goten and Trunks could sense an incredible ki, which was undoubtedly coming from Goku and Freeza when they were fighting. If Saiyan Beyond God was indeed a thing, then Goten and Trunks wouldn't have been able to sense Goku's ki to begin with. And then in Episode 37, Vegeta transforms into a SSJB while he was already a SSJ, which strongly implies he can tap into his God ki at will, meaning he never had Godly ki in his base form to begin with.

I don't see how this implies that he never had godly ki in his base form to begin with at all. He was just turning into an SSB from SSJ to show off the latest transformation to Cabba, that's all.

Also, Goku clearly had godly ki when he fought Beerus in BoG and in Super. In base. How do you explain that and say at the same time Vegeta never had godly ki in his base form? Goku and Vegeta became equals after Goku fought Beerus.

[Lord Beerus]

Hell, Resurrection F itself kinda shits on the whose Base = Super Saiyan God theory as everyone was able to keep track of Goku and Freeza's battle.

No, in episode 24, Gohan specifically points out he can't follow the battle and Krillin is amazed by this. Jaco the guy with the super eyes apparently is the only one capable of watching the fight.

I was talking about the movie itself. Not Super.

[buutenks]

So, some think goku has 2 bases and some think base goku isnt god tier period?

Also,i somehow doubt any of this will be explained.

Tho for me, due to the fact that u6 team appeared so weak compared to goku and vegeta,i see no reason to place any of them besides hit at god levels.

From the looks of it, none of them besides hit above buu.

Edit: It was easy to place the androids,cell etc because they defeated goku,vegeta,trunks etc

[Bullza]

It's way way way stronger than SSJ3. Think about it: Base Goku could compete with 70% Beerus.

Well yeah he was obviously God tier at that point but as someone else said that may have been a one time only deal when God's time limit ran out and perhaps the power was regulating through his body.

Because after he went out of God form Goku didn't know that his power had dropped so was still practically SSJG level but now there's shown to be a clear difference between base and SSJG level.

Are you sure nothing like that has happened with base? Maybe the white aura is what signifies godly ki in base.

But there was no white aura when he was fighting Beerus. There was a white aura when they were fighting Whis in the movie but not in Super, also in the movie the white aura would be there and then it wouldn't.

Same with Frieza, Goku was fighting with a white aura, he deflected shots and Vegeta blew them up but he had no white aura.

There's times when SSJ and SSJB had an aura and then times it didn't. If base forms aura was a white version of the flamey aura the SSJG and SSJB had then that might have meant something.

So essentially no I dont think the white aura means anything at all.

[Doctor.]

Also, Goku clearly had godly ki when he fought Beerus in BoG and in Super. In base. How do you explain that and say at the same time Vegeta never had godly ki in his base form? Goku and Vegeta became equals after Goku fought Beerus.

Goku's Ki was sensed when he fought Beerus as a Super Saiyan, as well as when he fought Freeza in base.

[dbgtFO]

If base forms aura was a white version of the flamey aura the SSJG and SSJB had then that might have meant something.

That's exactly what I think they should have done. Make it more special than just the regular base aura seen in the original series(of course in the manga base Goku never has an aura outside of flying and using Kaio-ken, so that would be new from that perspective).
It always annoyed me they just had the same aura, they'd had in all of DBZ instead of something clearly signifying this was somehow Godly.

[apex_pretador]

In Episode 24, Goten and Trunks could sense an incredible ki, which was undoubtedly coming from Goku and Freeza when they were fighting. If Saiyan Beyond God was indeed a thing, then Goten and Trunks wouldn't have been able to sense Goku's ki to begin with. And then in Episode 37, Vegeta transforms into a SSJB while he was already a SSJ, which strongly implies he can tap into his God ki at will, meaning he never had Godly ki in his base form to begin with.

Having the power of SSG & having god ki are 2 different things. SS Goku against Beerus had the power of SSG and was confirmed to be exactly as strong as SSG, but he didn't have god ki.

OK

On the other hand, base Goku could destroy the ki ball that SS Goku couldn't even push back by punching it to its core, implying that the difference between base & SS is much smaller than x50 now.

Implying that base > Super saiyan.
However, what I (my personal opinion) get out of that scene is - base goku momentarily jumped to the level of SSG at that time due to desperation and the power of god still burning inside him as beerus said.

However, in Champa arc, SS gives the regular x50 boost, or Cabba, a regular Saiyan, would have been much stronger than SS Vegeta after he became a Super Saiyan.

And goku in champa arc can't be weaker than RoF base goku, because no one commented on him going "weaker".

[buutenks]

Beerus explained clearly that the god power was still burning in goku.So even tho everyone felt ssj goku;s ki, which is nothing compared to beerus, the god ki was still there and allowed goku to fight beerus.

After that none of it is mentioned again,then whis states that if the saiyan base is a tree, then the level of the gods is the castle.

Also krillin says that goku's power is much bigger than when he fought beerus.

That to me i translate into base goku>>>ssj1 goku=/>FP PC