Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

And goku in champa arc can't be weaker than RoF base goku, because no one commented on him going "weaker".

Then Piccolo can't be stronger either, because no one commented on him getting stronger.

[buutenks]

Well, considering piccolo did so well vs frost,id say he definitely got stronger, but most likely not such a big boost that would warrant a statement.

So he proly jumped from cell jr level to idk FP PC or perhaps SPC. That is big, however to goku, that right now is erm nothing hehe ^^

[apex_pretador]

And goku in champa arc can't be weaker than RoF base goku, because no one commented on him going "weaker".

Then Piccolo can't be stronger either, because no one commented on him getting stronger.

I don't think piccolo getting fat buu levels of power will really be worthy of a comment anymore. Or, I'd say that there isn't any "sudden" jump in piccolo's power. I do feel like this is a little inconsistency

But everyone making it seem like base goku (vs freeza) > SS goku (vs frost),If that was the case, then wouldn't atleast krillin comment on that and say something like "he had a bigger ki when he fought freeza, without even transforming". Getting weaker in DB is something really rare, and deserves to be commented more than getting a bit stronger. Like no one commented that pre-Majin vegeta got really stronger since CG , did someone?

[Lord Beerus]

In Episode 24, Goten and Trunks could sense an incredible ki, which was undoubtedly coming from Goku and Freeza when they were fighting. If Saiyan Beyond God was indeed a thing, then Goten and Trunks wouldn't have been able to sense Goku's ki to begin with. And then in Episode 37, Vegeta transforms into a SSJB while he was already a SSJ, which strongly implies he can tap into his God ki at will, meaning he never had Godly ki in his base form to begin with.

Having the power of SSG & having god ki are 2 different things. SS Goku against Beerus had the power of SSG and was confirmed to be exactly as strong as SSG, but he didn't have god ki.

If that's case then they should be able sense Goku when he is a Super Saiyan Blue. But they can't. Because when Goku channels the power of Super Saiyan God to achieve the Super Saiyan Blue form, he's tapping into Goldy Ki too. So Goku making the power of Super Saiyan God his own as a Super Saiyan in EP 13 was literally a one time thing, and he never repeated it again in his Base Form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Implying that base > Super saiyan.

Not necessarily, and we know for a fact that this isn't the case. Goku didn't try to get inside the ball & punch its core as a Super Saiyan, but the fact that he could do it in base means that there is a small difference between these 2 form. Just like we saw in the movie.

However, what I (my personal opinion) get out of that scene is - base goku momentarily jumped to the level of SSG at that time due to desperation and the power of god still burning inside him as beerus said.

Well, Goku seems to have kept the power of Super Saiyan God according to Toyotaro's adaptation of FnF, which was supervised by Toriyama, so I don't think that was a temporary power-up.

And goku in champa arc can't be weaker than RoF base goku, because no one commented on him going "weaker".

Which means that they know Goku & Vegeta can turn on & off the SSG power.

If that's case then they should be able sense Goku when he is a Super Saiyan Blue. But they can't.

Because SSB gives the user god ki. What's your point?

Because when Goku channels the power of Super Saiyan God to achieve the Super Saiyan Blue form, he's tapping into Goldy Ki too.

He doesn't channel any power, he already has the power. He is Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, meaning that when he hasn't transformed, he is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

So Goku making the power of Super Saiyan God his own as a Super Saiyan in EP 13 was literally a one time thing, and he never repeated it again in his Base Form.

Toriyama disagrees with you:

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

Vegeta disagrees with you as well:

Minute: 5
Context: Vegeta stands out in the middle of nowhere, reflecting on Goku's fight with Beerus.
Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods."

These are before Super Saiyan Blue.
And like I mentioned above, Goku seems to have kept the power of Super Saiyan God according to Toyotaro's adaptation of FnF, which was supervised by Toriyama.

So no, the "Saiyan beyond God" form for FnF Goku isn't a Dragon Ball Heroes-only thing. People just don't like the idea.

[Chiki]

Well yeah he was obviously God tier at that point but as someone else said that may have been a one time only deal when God's time limit ran out and perhaps the power was regulating through his body.

Because after he went out of God form Goku didn't know that his power had dropped so was still practically SSJG level but now there's shown to be a clear difference between base and SSJG level.

Like someone else said before, Toriyama himself said Goku kept the god power for good after that battle.

But there was no white aura when he was fighting Beerus. There was a white aura when they were fighting Whis in the movie but not in Super, also in the movie the white aura would be there and then it wouldn't.

Same with Frieza, Goku was fighting with a white aura, he deflected shots and Vegeta blew them up but he had no white aura.

There's times when SSJ and SSJB had an aura and then times it didn't. If base forms aura was a white version of the flamey aura the SSJG and SSJB had then that might have meant something.

So essentially no I dont think the white aura means anything at all.

I'm not saying it's 100% consistent, but it's sometimes there when we need it to be there. The other arguments in favor of my view are much stronger (Piccolo's ridiculous power boost, etc.)

Also, Goku clearly had godly ki when he fought Beerus in BoG and in Super. In base. How do you explain that and say at the same time Vegeta never had godly ki in his base form? Goku and Vegeta became equals after Goku fought Beerus.

Goku's Ki was sensed when he fought Beerus as a Super Saiyan, as well as when he fought Freeza in base.

Like I said before, his ki is mixed (regular + godly) until he goes SSB.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku's Ki was sensed when he fought Beerus as a Super Saiyan, as well as when he fought Freeza in base.

Like I said before, his ki is mixed (regular + godly) until he goes SSB.

That's literally a new ability you've created for Goku. It's never hinted once that Goku mixed his regular ki with Godly ki in his base form.

[Chiki]

Goku's Ki was sensed when he fought Beerus as a Super Saiyan, as well as when he fought Freeza in base.

Like I said before, his ki is mixed (regular + godly) until he goes SSB.

That's literally a new ability you've created for Goku. It's never hinted once that Goku mixed his regular ki with Godly ki in his base form.

Sure it's hinted: Goku's ki can be felt in base, and he has a massive power boost. What else could explain these two facts apart from him having both?

Goku pre-SSG: 100% regular ki
Base Goku post-SSG: maybe 50% regular/50% godly ki, same for SS Goku post SSG.
SSG Goku: 100% godly ki
SSB Goku: 100% godly ki

Alternatively, maybe Goku no longer has godly ki in Base w/SSG power anymore. Instead he compensates for it with a massive amount of regular ki.

[buutenks]

Well, whatever numbers were before, u6 arc changed them.

Assault form frost was able to match base goku, yet ff frost got one shotted by ssj vegeta who was holding back even and ssj blue is an even bigger boost.

So while base goku might have been equal to ssg, now it got changed.

That or try and fit in assault form frost, ff frost, base goku, ssj, ssj blue etc inbetween 6 and 9.

[Bullza]

Like someone else said before, Toriyama himself said Goku kept the god power for good after that battle

Well he did because even after the time limit ran out he is still able to use the power without having to do the ritual again. It's a part of him but not necessarily part of his base form constantly. He seems to withdraw that power when he becomes a SSJB.

[Lord Beerus]

Sure it's hinted: Goku's ki can be felt in base, and he has a massive power boost. What else could explain these two facts apart from him having both?

Anybody's can be felt in their base form. This isn't a new thing. Goku's immense boost in strength in his base form can be just simply acquitted to Whis' training. The same training that was responsible for catapulting Vegeta from SSJ2 tier to SSJB tier.

[Bilbo_Swaggins]

Is it just me or does the most current power of Goku seem to be weaker than when he fought against Beerus? The universe was at risk of being destroyed when they clashed. Obviously the writers can't make every encounter like that, but it seems that they've written him to be weaker.....at least as feats go.

Also, something I don't really hear talked about much. *** Why hasn't there been any discussion about how SSGod powers can heal mortal wounds, nearly instantly??** Goku gets knife punched by Beerus, falls to the ocean, then is healed by magical fire from Zeus and rises like a Phoenix!


I'd like to hear peoples thoughts about the healing and if you agree with the writers making Goku "appear," to be weaker. In Dbz, we've always seen new power levels perform better, faster, shake more things, generate more power....now after all this Whis-staff training, 3 years ROSAT training, etc, it doesn't seem to have produced any "WoW," factor.

[TheMikado]

Sure it's hinted: Goku's ki can be felt in base, and he has a massive power boost. What else could explain these two facts apart from him having both?

Anybody's can be felt in their base form. This isn't a new thing. Goku's immense boost in strength in his base form can be just simply acquitted to Whis' training. The same training that was responsible for catapulting Vegeta from SSJ2 tier to SSJB tier.

So your saying Whis traing gave them a 40,000% power boost in base in just a few months??? Beerus has been training under Whis for millions of years.. Beerus should be powerswole!

[Lord Beerus]

Sure it's hinted: Goku's ki can be felt in base, and he has a massive power boost. What else could explain these two facts apart from him having both?

Anybody's can be felt in their base form. This isn't a new thing. Goku's immense boost in strength in his base form can be just simply acquitted to Whis' training. The same training that was responsible for catapulting Vegeta from SSJ2 tier to SSJB tier.

So your saying Whis traing gave them a 40,000% power boost in base in just a few months??? Beerus has been training under Whis for millions of years.. Beerus should be powerswole!

Yep, that pretty much what Super tells you. It may be absurd, but you pretty much gotta role with it. Besides, insane jumps in power have been a thing in Dragon Ball since the Namek arc.

[HybridSaiyan]

So, if SSJ3 didn't zap energy and was mastered like the SSJ, Would it be considered as strong as SSJB?

[TheMikado]

So, if SSJ3 didn't zap energy and was mastered like the SSJ, Would it be considered as strong as SSJB?

Well if SSJ multiplier still actually worked and SSJ Goku vs Beerus was actually a 6 on the 10 scale the. SSJ3 post Beerus would be a 48-50 canonically speaking LOL!

[Chiki]

Like someone else said before, Toriyama himself said Goku kept the god power for good after that battle

Well he did because even after the time limit ran out he is still able to use the power without having to do the ritual again. It's a part of him but not necessarily part of his base form constantly. He seems to withdraw that power when he becomes a SSJB.

Then why can't he withdraw the power in Base form anymore if he does so against Beerus successfully?

Anybody's can be felt in their base form. This isn't a new thing. Goku's immense boost in strength in his base form can be just simply acquitted to Whis' training. The same training that was responsible for catapulting Vegeta from SSJ2 tier to SSJB tier.

But Base Goku already did well against Beerus, way better than SSJ3 Goku, so it's clearly not because of Whis's training.

Yep, that pretty much what Super tells you. It may be absurd, but you pretty much gotta role with it. Besides, insane jumps in power have been a thing in Dragon Ball since the Namek arc.

If your view leads to an absurd conclusion and mine doesn't, I think basic logic dictates that my view is more logically sound.

[HybridSaiyan]

So, if SSJ3 didn't zap energy and was mastered like the SSJ, Would it be considered as strong as SSJB?

Well if SSJ multiplier still actually worked and SSJ Goku vs Beerus was actually a 6 on the 10 scale the. SSJ3 post Beerus would be a 48-50 canonically speaking LOL!

Lol, yeah. I've always wondered what would have happened if Goku accidentally powered up to SSJ2 or 3 when he's getting crushed by those chunks of boulders sent by Beerus.

Sorry, but I'm just such a big fan of SSJ2 and 3 lmao.

[Zephyr]

Is there any sort of consensus yet for how Frost, Cabba, and Magetta relate to one another? My thoughts so far are as follows:

Base Cabba appeared to fight on par with Base Vegeta, who for all intents and purposes would be equal to Base Goku. Frost's 1st form would have to definitely be below them, as Goku at the very least held his own in Base against Frost's Assault form. Naturally, Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyans trump any form that Frost or Cabba have, and Cabba's SSj appears to not be on par with Vegeta's (nor Goku's, if we treat the two as equals).

That establishes four basic tiers:

[SSj Goku][SSj Vegeta]
[SSj Cabba]
[Base Goku][Base Vegeta][Base Cabba]
[1st form Frost]

If we were to work from within this outline, we could start speculating for Frost's next two forms. It would make sense to move him up at least one tier with each transformation. I think this also works, as when Frost and Goku were fighting, Goku went Super Saiyan in order to get Frost to transform the second time. I feel like if he could have utterly dominated to the point of forcing Frost to transform without going Super Saiyan he would have, since he wanted to get by as low as possible for as long as possible, due to Hit watching.

[SSj Goku][SSj Vegeta]
[SSj Cabba][Final form Frost]
[Base Goku][Base Vegeta][Base Cabba][Assault form Frost]
[1st form Frost]

Magetta makes things tricky. Which tier would you guys place him in?

[ZombieVito]

If base Cabba is on the same tier as base Vegeta then his SSJ form will also be on the same tier as SSJ Vegeta.

I would put Magetta in between final form Frost and the Super Saiyan's.