Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

So if I am understanding the arguments correctly, we basically have concluded that they can turn their God ki off at will. Furthermore we assume they can do the same in base , however while in base they seem to have absorbed the God ki as their own ki which allows it to be sensed by everyone and not just Gods. Does this about sum up the only logical explanation for this?

Basically in the tournament no one is actually that strong including Piccolo with the Exception of Hit who just so happens to be at or above SSB levels based on the way he bodies Vegeta and then requires Goku to go SSKaioBlueKen just to take him out.

So does this mean that they can turn on God ki in base but still go SSJ? Which would make sense for the SSJ vs Beerus fights.

Furthermore sense they seem to be able to draw on God ki at will, at different amounts, at anytime they want, and I assume God ki is some kind of external ki they obtain into their own bodies (just based on the way Goku got the initial form and they way its talking about in universe). And more important to the Super story, Goku and Vegeta could literally become as strong as the plot needs them to be at literally any point due to flooding their bodies with God ki? We haven't even gotten to talking about how Kaioken stacks on top of this yet, nor Toriyama's comments where they will not come close to Beerus's power nor surpass it, yet but almost every account they should have been close if not already passed his level...

So can someone put all these forms in a 6-10-15 scale or a percent scale of something just so I can wrap my head around how this is all laid out?

[TheMikado]

Is there any sort of consensus yet for how Frost, Cabba, and Magetta relate to one another? My thoughts so far are as follows:

Base Cabba appeared to fight on par with Base Vegeta, who for all intents and purposes would be equal to Base Goku. Frost's 1st form would have to definitely be below them, as Goku at the very least held his own in Base against Frost's Assault form. Naturally, Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyans trump any form that Frost or Cabba have, and Cabba's SSj appears to not be on par with Vegeta's (nor Goku's, if we treat the two as equals).

That establishes four basic tiers:

[SSj Goku][SSj Vegeta]
[SSj Cabba]
[Base Goku][Base Vegeta][Base Cabba]
[1st form Frost]

If we were to work from within this outline, we could start speculating for Frost's next two forms. It would make sense to move him up at least one tier with each transformation. I think this also works, as when Frost and Goku were fighting, Goku went Super Saiyan in order to get Frost to transform the second time. I feel like if he could have utterly dominated to the point of forcing Frost to transform without going Super Saiyan he would have, since he wanted to get by as low as possible for as long as possible, due to Hit watching.

[SSj Goku][SSj Vegeta]
[SSj Cabba][Final form Frost]
[Base Goku][Base Vegeta][Base Cabba][Assault form Frost]
[1st form Frost]

Magetta makes things tricky. Which tier would you guys place him in?

[Buu]
[SSj Goku][SSj Vegeta]
[SSj Cabba][Final form Frost]
[Base Goku][Base Vegeta][Base Cabba][Assault form Frost][Magenta][Piccolo?]
[1st form Frost][Botamo]

I say this because SSJ Cabba and Final form Frost were unknown forms prior to the tournament and it would sense for the majority of the fighters to be around the same level.

[Zephyr]

If base Cabba is on the same tier as base Vegeta then his SSJ form will also be on the same tier as SSJ Vegeta.

I would put Magetta in between final form Frost and the Super Saiyan's.

Well, my reasoning for the disparity between the forms was that they fought pretty closely in base, but Vegeta had the upper hand as a Super Saiyan. The multipliers would only keep the matchup the same if the exact universal Super Saiyan multipliers from the guidebooks are at all in effect with Super's underlying logic. It's perfectly possible that the multiplier could be modified or changed. These are living organisms, after all, not computers. Though, at the same time, it's also possible that Vegeta suddenly outclassed the shit out of Cabba due to him having more mastery over the form.

[ZombieVito]

Hit|Monaka(?)
SSB Goku|SSB Vegeta
SBG Goku| SBG Vegeta
Boo
SSJ Goku|SSJ Vegeta|SSJ Cabba
Magetta
Final form Frost
Piccolo
Base Goku|Base Vegeta|Base Cabba|Assault form Frost
First form Frost
Botamo

If base Cabba is on the same tier as base Vegeta then his SSJ form will also be on the same tier as SSJ Vegeta.

I would put Magetta in between final form Frost and the Super Saiyan's.

Well, my reasoning for the disparity between the forms was that they fought pretty closely in base, but Vegeta had the upper hand as a Super Saiyan. The multipliers would only keep the matchup the same if the exact universal Super Saiyan multipliers from the guidebooks are at all in effect with Super's underlying logic. It's perfectly possible that the multiplier could be modified or changed. These are living organisms, after all, not computers. Though, at the same time, it's also possible that Vegeta suddenly outclassed the shit out of Cabba due to him having more mastery over the form.

Or Vegeta beating Cabba weakening him.

[Bullza]

Then why can't he withdraw the power in Base form anymore if he does so against Beerus successfully?

Well he doesnt withdraw it successfully against Beerus because he didn't know know he was doing it. Maybe it was a one off while his body was absorbing the power and thats why all his forms were similiar in power.

Afterwards when the power levels relaxed maybe the God power went dormant.

King Kai mentioned when Goku became a SSJB how he'd learned how to become a SSJG on his own. Maybe during his training he learned how to successfully withdraw that power and that's with SSJB.

On Beerus' planet Whis made that comparison to Beerus that implied they aren't close to God tier. In this Tournament it's obvious they aren't close to God tier.

You'd think the same would be true for the Frieza fight which happened in the middle. Otherwise it's confusing to have strong base Goku, then weak base Goku, then strong base Goku and then weak base Goku all without a proper explanation.

[Zephyr]

Or Vegeta beating Cabba weakening him.

That's also a good point. Fair enough, nothing necessitating different tiers for them.

[Chiki]

So if I am understanding the arguments correctly, we basically have concluded that they can turn their God ki off at will. Furthermore we assume they can do the same in base , however while in base they seem to have absorbed the God ki as their own ki which allows it to be sensed by everyone and not just Gods. Does this about sum up the only logical explanation for this?

Basically in the tournament no one is actually that strong including Piccolo with the Exception of Hit who just so happens to be at or above SSB levels based on the way he bodies Vegeta and then requires Goku to go SSKaioBlueKen just to take him out.

So does this mean that they can turn on God ki in base but still go SSJ? Which would make sense for the SSJ vs Beerus fights.

Furthermore sense they seem to be able to draw on God ki at will, at different amounts, at anytime they want, and I assume God ki is some kind of external ki they obtain into their own bodies (just based on the way Goku got the initial form and they way its talking about in universe). And more important to the Super story, Goku and Vegeta could literally become as strong as the plot needs them to be at literally any point due to flooding their bodies with God ki? We haven't even gotten to talking about how Kaioken stacks on top of this yet, nor Toriyama's comments where they will not come close to Beerus's power nor surpass it, yet but almost every account they should have been close if not already passed his level...

So can someone put all these forms in a 6-10-15 scale or a percent scale of something just so I can wrap my head around how this is all laid out?

Sounds good, but I don't think Goku and Vegeta can become as strong as the plot needs them. They gained godly ki, but that doesn't mean they're invincible or above Beerus or anything like that at all.

Well he doesnt withdraw it successfully against Beerus because he didn't know know he was doing it. Maybe it was a one off while his body was absorbing the power and thats why all his forms were similiar in power.

Afterwards when the power levels relaxed maybe the God power went dormant.

King Kai mentioned when Goku became a SSJB how he'd learned how to become a SSJG on his own. Maybe during his training he learned how to successfully withdraw that power and that's with SSJB.

On Beerus' planet Whis made that comparison to Beerus that implied they aren't close to God tier. In this Tournament it's obvious they aren't close to God tier.

You'd think the same would be true for the Frieza fight which happened in the middle. Otherwise it's confusing to have strong base Goku, then weak base Goku, then strong base Goku and then weak base Goku all without a proper explanation.

Ok, but I also gave a strong argument for why Base Goku used godly ki during RoF as well, so if that is true, then your argument would fall apart.

It is confusing indeed, but what can we do. Some video games have already adopted the Base w/ godly ki and w/o godly ki distinction which definitely helps with the confusion.

[Lord Beerus]

If your view leads to an absurd conclusion and mine doesn't, I think basic logic dictates that my view is more logically sound.

But ultimately, you logic/reasoning lacks more backing from the anime than mine does.

[apex_pretador]

Then why can't he withdraw the power in Base form anymore if he does so against Beerus successfully?

Well he doesnt withdraw it successfully against Beerus because he didn't know know he was doing it. Maybe it was a one off while his body was absorbing the power and thats why all his forms were similiar in power.

Afterwards when the power levels relaxed maybe the God power went dormant.

King Kai mentioned when Goku became a SSJB how he'd learned how to become a SSJG on his own. Maybe during his training he learned how to successfully withdraw that power and that's with SSJB.

On Beerus' planet Whis made that comparison to Beerus that implied they aren't close to God tier. In this Tournament it's obvious they aren't close to God tier.

You'd think the same would be true for the Frieza fight which happened in the middle. Otherwise it's confusing to have strong base Goku, then weak base Goku, then strong base Goku and then weak base Goku all without a proper explanation.

This is almost exactly what I believe.

[Bullza]

I just thought of a good argument against my own argument.

Base Goku being God tier against Beerus can't be a one off. At the start of the BoG arc Base Goku is equal to Base Vegeta. If Goku went back to normal after the Beerus fight then he'd be equal to Vegeta again.

However Vegeta did 6 months of intense training to catch up with Goku and got to the point he could sense God Ki and Goku said he didn't recognise him at first. So he's obviously a lot stronger....but he's still about as strong as Goku.

That tells us that Base Goku (Post SSJG) > Base Goku (Pre SSJG).

That could imply they were God tier but it makes no sense why Vegeta has God Ki on when he's just standing around but has God Ki off when in battle.

Regardless though Whis' comparison to Beerus still suggests they aren't really God tier, same with this Tournament.

So the only thing that seems to make sense is that Base Goku did get weaker after fighting Beerus but he did keep a portion of that power and combined with his training is why he's above SSJ3 tier. SSJB would be him using all of the God power.

Basically this

SSJB Goku > Base Goku against Beerus > SSJ Goku with some God power > Base Goku with some God power > SSJ3 Goku

[apex_pretador]

I just thought of a good argument against my own argument.

Base Goku being God tier against Beerus can't be a one off. At the start of the BoG arc Base Goku is equal to Base Vegeta. If Goku went back to normal after the Beerus fight then he'd be equal to Vegeta again.

But he still absorbed the power of SSG, and became a lot stronger than before.
So, basically,
SSG >= SS (beerus fight) >> SS (post battle) >> base post battle >>> anything on earth
Since goku absorbed all the power of SSG, he can bring full power of SSG out, but only by trying very hard and in desperate situations ONLY.
SSB gives him the ability to handle that power without using regular ki and without trying hard, and is even stronger.

However Vegeta did 6 months of intense training to catch up with Goku and got to the point he could sense God Ki and Goku said he didn't recognise him at first. So he's obviously a lot stronger....but he's still about as strong as Goku.

Good point. Didn't goku say vegeta is stronger than him when he reached beerus planet?

That tells us that Base Goku (Post SSJG) > Base Goku (Pre SSJG).

More like post SSG >>> Pre SSG
Krillin's statement also means a lot here.

That could imply they were God tier but it makes no sense why Vegeta has God Ki on when he's just standing around but has God Ki off when in battle.

You don't need to have god ki to be god tier. They all sensed golden freeza, who was god tier.
Also, when has vegeta "god ki ON"?

Regardless though Whis' comparison to Beerus still suggests they aren't really God tier, same with this Tournament.

agreed

So the only thing that seems to make sense is that Base Goku did get weaker after fighting Beerus but he did keep a portion of that power and combined with his training is why he's above SSJ3 tier. SSJB would be him using all of the God power.

base goku didn't get any weaker. Base goku did only one thing against beerus, punching his ki ball away , which was probably a one-off power spike, and an act of sheer willpower.

Basically this

SSJB Goku > Base Goku against Beerus > SSJ Goku with some God power > Base Goku with some God power > SSJ3 Goku

Why base goku (vs beerus) so high?

What I think:
SSB > SSG = base (one-off boost while punching ki ball) >= SS (all of SSG power) > SS (U6) >> Final form frost > Base (RoF / U6) = Final form freeza >= buuhan

[Draconic]

Did Goku turn part of his ki off in the past when he was using SSJ/SSJ2 instead of SSJ3? No. There is no reason to assume he does now. The "turning God ki on and off" theory has no evidence to back it up.

[buutenks]

Would like to point out, cabe was have a hard time with base vegeta, while vegeta was completely relaxed. You could see cabe was breathing heavily and sweating, while vegeta was perfectly fine. So perhaps base vegeta is above base cabe.

[apex_pretador]

Would like to point out, cabe was have a hard time with base vegeta, while vegeta was completely relaxed. You could see cabe was breathing heavily and sweating, while vegeta was perfectly fine. So perhaps base vegeta is above base cabe.

and base cabba's (probably first time) galick gun stalemated the super-trained galick gun of vegeta.

[apex_pretador]

Did Goku turn part of his ki off in the past when he was using SSJ/SSJ2 instead of SSJ3? No. There is no reason to assume he does now. The "turning God ki on and off" theory has no evidence to back it up.

exactly. People just have hard time believing that base cabba = final form Freeza and final form frost is above that.

[buutenks]

Well you could keep it simple and say all u6 fighters apart from botamo are god tier ^^. Tho makes you wonder why they didnt gang up on champa, so proly not.

Well, so far i think:

base goku/vegeta/FF freeza/base cabe= above all buu saga chars except for vegetto(why i place them at this level is due to whis' comparison)
FF frost/Mageta= in between base saiyans and vegetto
ssj goku/vegeta/ssj cabe=vegetto level
ssj blue/Hit=god tier.

Edit:Where do the rest of you place them at?

[LowRyder2005]

Did Goku turn part of his ki off in the past when he was using SSJ/SSJ2 instead of SSJ3? No. There is no reason to assume he does now. The "turning God ki on and off" theory has no evidence to back it up.

I think there is sufficient proof, at least for that. Namely, Goku telling people that he has to "mix his God power with Super Saiyan to become Super Saiyan Blue".
If he can turn Vanilla Super Saiyan, it means that it's not like he has Super Saiyan Blue only at his disposal. So he can use and not use his God power at will. If he turns Super Saiyan and adds the "godly power" = Blue. If he turns Super Saiyan without adding aforementioned "godly power" = Yellow.

People were mostly refusing the notion by arguing that Super Saiyan Yellow was now a placeholder for Super Saiyan Blue.

There is still the issue of "how strong Goku and his normal Super Saiyan are supposed to be now". But from various hints here and there from, we can reasonably deduce that in the tournament losing Buu is supposed to be a major loss for Goku and Vegeta, Piccolo looks stronger than the Base Goku who fought Botamo, so it's not far-fetched to say that Buu should at least be around SS Goku and Vegeta ("be around" as in "not totally outclassed against").

I concede that I'm mostly putting myself it in the author's shoes in light of how he treated Buu. It appears likely that Buu's forced removal signified that, to Toriyama, using him could have hindered the progression (Goku vs. Botamo -> Frost vs. Goku -> Piccolo vs. Frost -> Vegeta vs. Frost) he had in mind. So he created a plot device to cut him off, just like he did in ROF.
Buu jobbing would have served purpose, greatly hyping the contestants from Universe 6, just like against Beerus.

[TheMikado]

Did Goku turn part of his ki off in the past when he was using SSJ/SSJ2 instead of SSJ3? No. There is no reason to assume he does now. The "turning God ki on and off" theory has no evidence to back it up.

The reason is we now know they can turn the God Ki on and off like a light switch due to SSB Vegeta vs Cabba.
This combined with the only way all the different power levels and scenarios make sense is that Goku and Vegeta now have the ability to increase any form they are using by x400-500 at will.. Just as long as they stay well below Beerus power as according to Toriyamas comments.

[Hugo Boss]

Is there any sort of consensus yet for how Frost, Cabba, and Magetta relate to one another? My thoughts so far are as follows:

[SSj Goku][SSj Vegeta]
[SSj Cabba][Final form Frost]
[Base Goku][Base Vegeta][Base Cabba][Assault form Frost]
[1st form Frost]

Magetta makes things tricky. Which tier would you guys place him in?

Before Cabba manages to become a Super Saiyan, Vados notes Frost is the best hand-to-hand combatant out of Champa's team, so it seems Maggeta, Cabba and Hit best him in other attributes, giving their performance against Vegeta. My list concerning hand-to-hand combat would be something like this:

[Goku][Vegeta][Piccolo][Frost]
[Hit]
[Cabba]
[Magetta]
[Botamo]

When it comes to battle/fire power, things get close to your list, I guess.

[Bullza]

But he still absorbed the power of SSG, and became a lot stronger than before.
So, basically,

That's basically what I was saying. After the fight with Beerus, Goku was stronger than he was before. The amount of power he gained is equivalent to the amount of power Vegeta gained with those 6 months worth of training.

Though they aren't as strong in base as the base Goku who kept up with Beerus as per Whis' comment.

Good point. Didn't goku say vegeta is stronger than him when he reached beerus planet?

He said he might be stronger than him which could prove to be untrue if you take the movie (and series?) into account when Whis said that Vegeta was always Goku's lesser.

Also, when has vegeta "god ki ON"?

When he was waiting for Whis and Goku to appear on the planet. At that point he was about equal to a greatly powered up Goku and had learned to sense God Ki. So when Goku comments on his power up its probably because Vegeta has some God power in him which to me kinda disproves the two base theory if he's just standing around with that power.

base goku didn't get any weaker. Base goku did only one thing against beerus, punching his ki ball away , which was probably a one-off power spike, and an act of sheer willpower

Why base goku (vs beerus) so high?

In the movie Base Goku did a lot more and kept up with and even hurt Beerus at one point, that makes him God tier. He ain't God tier afterward though so he must have lost a lot of that God power.