pacz360 wrote:This really doesn't confirm the two base theory :/
Yes it does, SSB Vegeta got absolutely savaged by Hit, while SSB Vegeta OHKOed SSJ Cabba and could have easily OHKOed everyone else in the tourney. On the other hand, Base Vegeta was equal to Base Cabba so Base Cabba should be equal to Base Goku. Yet Base Goku is putting up a good fight against Hit.
By your reasoning, Base Cabba should be able to do what Base Goku did to Hit because they're equals. But he obviously can't because SSJ Cabba got OHKOed by SSB Vegeta.
The only way to explain all these facts is with the two bases theory, which says that while Base Goku and Cabba are equals, Base Goku w/ godly ki is far above Base Cabba.
Last edited by Chiki on Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Birusu16 wrote:I don't see how this confirms anything. Goku put up a better fight because he figured out how to counter Hit's ability. Vegeta had no idea how to counter it.
How could he make Hit bleed though? It would make no sense if in his base form, without Godly ki, he would be able to do that.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Also bare in mind, we're just assuming that Hit is at 100% from the start.
Beerus wasn't 100% when he started fighting people was he? SSJ2 Vegeta was able to withstand his attacks and he also made Beerus bleed yet he was nothing compared to Beerus once he powered up.
We know that Hit does get stronger in the next episode based on what the summary said so maybe the Base Goku vs Hit fight is similar to the SSJ2 vs Beerus fight.
Birusu16 wrote:I don't see how this confirms anything. Goku put up a better fight because he figured out how to counter Hit's ability. Vegeta had no idea how to counter it.
How could he make Hit bleed though? It would make no sense if in his base form, without Godly ki, he would be able to do that.
Hit does power up in the NEP so maybe he was suppressed?
Bullza wrote:Also bare in mind, we're just assuming that Hit is at 100% from the start.
Beerus wasn't 100% when he started fighting people was he? SSJ2 Vegeta was able to withstand his attacks and he also made Beerus bleed yet he was nothing compared to Beerus once he powered up.
We know that Hit does get stronger in the next episode based on what the summary said so maybe the Base Goku vs Hit fight is similar to the SSJ2 vs Beerus fight.
Then how did suppressed Hit own SSB Vegeta? SSB Vegeta owned SSJ Cabba in one hit, so yeah, you need the two bases theory.
Birusu16 wrote:I don't see how this confirms anything. Goku put up a better fight because he figured out how to counter Hit's ability. Vegeta had no idea how to counter it.
How could he make Hit bleed though? It would make no sense if in his base form, without Godly ki, he would be able to do that.
Vegeta made Beerus bleed in BoGs. I don't see how that really means anything.
Goku putting up a better fight had nothing to do with strength. It had to do with him figuring out how to counter Hit's time skipping, which was something Vegeta wasn't able to do.
Last edited by Birusu16 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bullza wrote:Also bare in mind, we're just assuming that Hit is at 100% from the start.
Beerus wasn't 100% when he started fighting people was he? SSJ2 Vegeta was able to withstand his attacks and he also made Beerus bleed yet he was nothing compared to Beerus once he powered up.
We know that Hit does get stronger in the next episode based on what the summary said so maybe the Base Goku vs Hit fight is similar to the SSJ2 vs Beerus fight.
Then how did suppressed Hit own SSB Vegeta? SSB Vegeta owned SSJ Cabba in one hit, so yeah, you need the two bases theory.
pacz360 wrote:This really doesn't confirm the two base theory :/
Yes it does, SSB Vegeta got absolutely savaged by Hit, while SSB Vegeta OHKOed SSJ Cabba and could have easily OHKOed everyone else in the tourney. On the other hand, Base Vegeta was equal to Base Cabba so Base Cabba should be equal to Base Goku. Yet Base Goku is putting up a good fight against Hit.
By your reasoning, Base Cabba should be able to do what Base Goku did to Hit. But he obviously can't because SSJ Cabba got OHKOed by SSB Vegeta.
The only way to explain all these facts is with the two bases theory.
This has just made things insanely confusing. Like, how do we know when Goku channels his Godly ki into his base form? He produced no aura when he fighting Hit. Indicating he never even powered. Hell, Goku at least powered up and produced distinct aura in the Resurrection F movie. This episode has thrown an almighty spanner in the works of a lot of people's theories.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Bullza wrote:Also bare in mind, we're just assuming that Hit is at 100% from the start.
Beerus wasn't 100% when he started fighting people was he? SSJ2 Vegeta was able to withstand his attacks and he also made Beerus bleed yet he was nothing compared to Beerus once he powered up.
We know that Hit does get stronger in the next episode based on what the summary said so maybe the Base Goku vs Hit fight is similar to the SSJ2 vs Beerus fight.
Then how did suppressed Hit own SSB Vegeta? SSB Vegeta owned SSJ Cabba in one hit, so yeah, you need the two bases theory.
I don't see how even the two base theory can fix this power inconsistency now. Vegeta was done in 3 hits and then in walks some kind of base Goku.... Like Hit power doesn't immediately make him ultra powerful too and base Goku proves that.
Bullza wrote:Also bare in mind, we're just assuming that Hit is at 100% from the start.
Beerus wasn't 100% when he started fighting people was he? SSJ2 Vegeta was able to withstand his attacks and he also made Beerus bleed yet he was nothing compared to Beerus once he powered up.
We know that Hit does get stronger in the next episode based on what the summary said so maybe the Base Goku vs Hit fight is similar to the SSJ2 vs Beerus fight.
Then how did suppressed Hit own SSB Vegeta? SSB Vegeta owned SSJ Cabba in one hit, so yeah, you need the two bases theory.
Time skip and hitting pressure points.
So it was pressure points? I wasn't sure. They kinda seemed like normal hits to me.
Bullza wrote:Also bare in mind, we're just assuming that Hit is at 100% from the start.
Beerus wasn't 100% when he started fighting people was he? SSJ2 Vegeta was able to withstand his attacks and he also made Beerus bleed yet he was nothing compared to Beerus once he powered up.
We know that Hit does get stronger in the next episode based on what the summary said so maybe the Base Goku vs Hit fight is similar to the SSJ2 vs Beerus fight.
Then how did suppressed Hit own SSB Vegeta? SSB Vegeta owned SSJ Cabba in one hit, so yeah, you need the two bases theory.
Time skip and hitting pressure points.
The pressure point attacks I can understand, but can Hit actually alter time like that?
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Then how did suppressed Hit own SSB Vegeta? SSB Vegeta owned SSJ Cabba in one hit, so yeah, you need the two bases theory.
Half of this comes down to knowledge though. Vegeta didn't know about Hit's time skip ability and Goku did. That gives Goku a huge advantage regardless of how much stronger Vegeta might have been.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:Trying to make sense of Super's power scaling makes it even more worse.My brain hurts.
Mine too. Now we're only ever going to really know half the time when Goku or Vegeta decide to tap into their Godly ki.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
So now that we know Hit is gimmicky and not raw power and monaka is a fraud that makes Goku and Vegeta the two most powerful by a wide margin. Also the throwing Vegeta scraps bit is getting REALLY OLD.
TheMikado wrote:So now that we know Hit is gimmicky and not raw power and monaka is a fraud that makes Goku and Vegeta the two most powerful by a wide margin. Also the throwing Vegeta scraps bit is getting REALLY OLD.
Hit is actually strong you need to be a SSB to beat him at the very least besides him Ko Vegeta proves he has the strength behind his hax
GT's power scale was more consistent than this. Would it kill them to spare a few lines to tell us what exactly is going on? I know "power levels" is anathema for many people, but at the very least there should be some consistency in how strong these characters are relative to each other. Right now it seems like anyone can do anything.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Well let's be real about it, not from an in Universe perspective but just in general.
Are we honestly supposed to believe that this two base theory is real and the people involved with the show know about this but then do absolutely nothing whatsoever to make this clear?
This would have been the perfect opportunity for it to have been brought up and there was nothing. Nothing was said and nothing was done.
I think I made my mind. I won't go by the two base theory.
Even if Hit was suppressed the fact that Goku made him bleed is impressive and he had no aura. Nothing indicated in this episode that his base was any different than when he faced Botamo.
