Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Birusu16]

People really need to throw that 6/10/15 scale out the window, especially since Goku's going to stack KK (a technique that at the very least doubles your fighting power) on top of SSJB and still be weaker than Beerus. You're making it that much harder on yourselves by trying to fit everything into that scale.

[TheMikado]

People really need to throw that 6/10/15 scale out the window, especially since Goku's going to stack KK (a technique that at the very least doubles your fighting power) on top of SSJB and still be weaker than Beerus. You're making it that much harder on yourselves by trying to fit everything into that scale.

We didn't do this. Using the 70% quote, the 10% quoted. The Toriyama 6-10-15 quote and then the statement that Goku and Vegeta could team up and beat Beerus all have a consistent power level that points to 6 on the God scale. You literally have to throw out a ton of supplemental evidence and statements along with it. If you just write stuff on the fly without actually having s good narrative this is what's going to happen.

[Xeztin]

Haven't watched the ep yet, but I'm going to stick with the 2 bases theory, just because imo even a Super Saiyan Rainbow can get defeated by Yamcha if that Saiyan doesn't know how to counter his opponent. (I'm talking about Vegeta SSJB and Hit). Hopefully we will get a confirmation one day, we didn't get SSJB officially named till a episode or 2 ago.

[Birusu16]

People really need to throw that 6/10/15 scale out the window, especially since Goku's going to stack KK (a technique that at the very least doubles your fighting power) on top of SSJB and still be weaker than Beerus. You're making it that much harder on yourselves by trying to fit everything into that scale.

We didn't do this. Using the 70% quote, the 10% quoted. The Toriyama 6-10-15 quote and then the statement that Goku and Vegeta could team up and beat Beerus all have a consistent power level that points to 6 on the God scale. You literally have to throw out a ton of supplemental evidence and statements along with it. If you just write stuff on the fly without actually having s good narrative this is what's going to happen.

All of that except the 10% quote is from the movies and the 6/10/15 scale likely pertains to just the movies as well. That scale doesn't fit with any of the implied power levels in Super. If that scale was still reliable then Goku would end up surpassing Beerus once he uses KK along with SSJB seeing as the former doubles his power at the very least meaning he should go from at least a 6 to a 12 on that scale and we know that's not happening as Toriyama just said he has no plans for them to surpass Beerus.

[Saiyan007]

LOL it's the opposite. If Goku's power increased due to SSG power, then it would be due to godly ki which cannot be felt to begin with.

Not true SSJ Goku was just as strong as SSJG back in the BOG arc and yet his ki could be felt from the others.Everyone in this tournament is God tier.

[Bullza]

Do you really think Base Cabba can make Hit bleed when he couldn't do any damage to SS Vegeta's head as an SS? Come on, judging from your previous posts I know you're a reasonable guy.

But Base Cabba is equal to Base Vegeta as per Vegeta's words. Of course we'll assume that Base Goku is equal to Base Vegeta as well. So if Goku can do it then why can't Cabba? IF he could hit him in the first place.

We don't know that Hit in these two fights is more durable than SSJ Vegeta. We know he's suppressed.

Can we say for sure that if SSJB Vegeta had managed to punch him square in the face that Hit wouldn't have been knocked out cold?

[TheMikado]

People really need to throw that 6/10/15 scale out the window, especially since Goku's going to stack KK (a technique that at the very least doubles your fighting power) on top of SSJB and still be weaker than Beerus. You're making it that much harder on yourselves by trying to fit everything into that scale.

We didn't do this. Using the 70% quote, the 10% quoted. The Toriyama 6-10-15 quote and then the statement that Goku and Vegeta could team up and beat Beerus all have a consistent power level that points to 6 on the God scale. You literally have to throw out a ton of supplemental evidence and statements along with it. If you just write stuff on the fly without actually having s good narrative this is what's going to happen.

All of that except the 10% quote is from the movies and the 6/10/15 scale likely pertains to just the movies as well. That scale doesn't fit with any of the implied power levels in Super.

No the 10% is from Super and the 70% is from the movies which all does fall in line with a 6 regardless of which media we are talking about.

[TheMikado]

LOL it's the opposite. If Goku's power increased due to SSG power, then it would be due to godly ki which cannot be felt to begin with.

Not true SSJ Goku was just as strong as SSJG back in the BOG arc and yet his ki could be felt from the others.Everyone in this tournament is God tier.

Including Piccolo???

[Saiyan007]

LOL it's the opposite. If Goku's power increased due to SSG power, then it would be due to godly ki which cannot be felt to begin with.

Not true SSJ Goku was just as strong as SSJG back in the BOG arc and yet his ki could be felt from the others.Everyone in this tournament is God tier.

Including Piccolo???

that can be viewed as PIS happens in comics all the time people weaker hurting or standing a chance against someone superior

[TheMikado]

Yeah but to even stand a chance Piccolo would need a power increase of 20,000% and no one really notice or comments on it...

[pacz360]

Considering nobody commented on Goku's power increasing and base Goku made Hit bleed, I think we can assume the two base theory was debunked this episode.

Or just go with the flow and accept that battle powers at this point are fucked beyond redemption.

Pretty much this

[Birusu16]

No the 10% is from Super and the 70% is from the movies which all does fall in line with a 6 regardless of which media we are talking about.

The 10% line is the only thing from Super. The 70% isn't and the statement from Whis suggesting Goku and Vegeta could fight on par with Beerus isn't. That scale doesn't flow with any of the power levels in Super. It doesn't go with Whis' statement about Goku and Vegeta's power being as big as a tree while the realm of the gods is as big as Beerus' castle. Goku suggests he and Vegeta would get stomped if they attempted to take on Beerus in the RoF arc, so there's another thing that doesn't go with the 6/10/15 scale. And finally, we have Goku getting ready to use KK alongside SSJB meaning his power should double and take him from a 6 to a 12 if we're using that scale. That's clearly NOT happening seeing as Goku and Vegeta won't be surpassing Beerus and Whis anytime soon.

Nothing in Super aligns with that scale in anyway.

[ZombieVito]

People really need to throw that 6/10/15 scale out the window, especially since Goku's going to stack KK (a technique that at the very least doubles your fighting power) on top of SSJB and still be weaker than Beerus. You're making it that much harder on yourselves by trying to fit everything into that scale.

We don't know this.

[Birusu16]

People really need to throw that 6/10/15 scale out the window, especially since Goku's going to stack KK (a technique that at the very least doubles your fighting power) on top of SSJB and still be weaker than Beerus. You're making it that much harder on yourselves by trying to fit everything into that scale.

We don't know this.

Yes we do. Toriyama has already stated he has no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus anytime soon.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

With all due respect, don't you see your hypocrisy by saying people are ignoring official sources, whilst doing the same. Mainly the Whis line. The line is pretty direct, I admit to ignoring it, based almost on all the same grounds as you. Not really ignoring but giving more weight to Beerus line, that can't be proven wrong in BoG.

I'm ignoring one source that has nothing to do with Toriyama, as far as we know, because it contradicts many sources from which most of them have Toriyama's involvement.

I'll add this possible contradiction to Base = SSJG.
Champa called Goku and Vegeta weaklings when they were with the heavy suits, assuming the tournament was already won. I don't think it would make sense for them to be holding back at the time, they were training to get stronger and Whis wouldn't give them weights that wouldn't challenge them.
Then when Goku was fighting Botamo, while still digesting food. Champa says he's exactly the same as before(with the weighs).
Yet Goku still powers up to SSJ, getting a decent increase based on his fight with Frost. Leaving very little room for the two base theory.

I don't believe that Goku & Vegeta were holding back, but we know from the original manga that weights lower down the battle power of the user & limit their movements. So, Goku & Vegeta appeared as weaklings to Champa because of the weights, even though they were giving their all.

The biggest argument to be made against the two base theory is it's confusing nature, which has people like us, who dissect the show guessing. Mr.Toriyama right before the show said he expected it to be simple like Dragon Ball was. Were we have characters pointing out power gains constantly and were the transformations all have visual cues. This is made for children, the author said it himself.
Simplicity!

And yet it's Toriyama's movies (along with the manga adaptation of FnF which he supervised, and the video-games that contain material specifically to promote these movies) which make it clear that base Goku with SSG powers is on the same level as SSG Goku. It is apparently supported even in Champa arc, judging from the latest episode. Base Goku displays power not extremely far from SSB in his fight with Hit, which can only be the case if his base is at SSG level.

[TheMikado]

No the 10% is from Super and the 70% is from the movies which all does fall in line with a 6 regardless of which media we are talking about.

The 10% line is the only thing from Super. The 70% isn't and the statement from Whis suggesting Goku and Vegeta could fight on par with Beerus isn't. That scale doesn't flow with any of the power levels in Super. It doesn't go with Whis' statement about Goku and Vegeta's power being as big as a tree while the realm of the gods is as big as Beerus' castle. Goku suggests he and Vegeta would get stomped if they attempted to take on Beerus in the RoF arc, so there's another thing that doesn't go with the 6/10/15 scale. And finally, we have Goku getting ready to use KK alongside SSJB meaning his power should double and take him from a 6 to a 12 if we're using that scale. That's clearly NOT happening seeing as Goku and Vegeta won't be surpassing Beerus and Whis anytime soon.

Nothing in Super aligns with that scale in anyway.

So then I'm assuming we are being asked to completely forget about the 10% line then. I really don't have a problem with it but it would be nice is someone said yeah we messed up, please ignore it. Plus what does the manga say about all this if we are going to start discussing the differences between media.

[ZombieVito]

People really need to throw that 6/10/15 scale out the window, especially since Goku's going to stack KK (a technique that at the very least doubles your fighting power) on top of SSJB and still be weaker than Beerus. You're making it that much harder on yourselves by trying to fit everything into that scale.

We don't know this.

Yes we do. Toriyama has already stated he has no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus anytime soon.

Using Kaioken to surpass someone is no different to using an amplified attack. It's not really surpassing.

[Birusu16]

Using Kaioken to surpass someone is no different to using an amplified attack. It's not really surpassing.

Yes it is. Surpassing someone through the use of a technique is still surpassing them. There's absolutely no reason for Toriyama to go on the record and say he has no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus only to have the former do it (even if it is just for a moment) in the next few episodes.

If he says he has no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him then there's no reason to think they'll surpass him in anyway at this point.

[TheMikado]

Not to mention he went the extra mile and said they wouldn't even come close to Beerus power,

[Birusu16]

No the 10% is from Super and the 70% is from the movies which all does fall in line with a 6 regardless of which media we are talking about.

The 10% line is the only thing from Super. The 70% isn't and the statement from Whis suggesting Goku and Vegeta could fight on par with Beerus isn't. That scale doesn't flow with any of the power levels in Super. It doesn't go with Whis' statement about Goku and Vegeta's power being as big as a tree while the realm of the gods is as big as Beerus' castle. Goku suggests he and Vegeta would get stomped if they attempted to take on Beerus in the RoF arc, so there's another thing that doesn't go with the 6/10/15 scale. And finally, we have Goku getting ready to use KK alongside SSJB meaning his power should double and take him from a 6 to a 12 if we're using that scale. That's clearly NOT happening seeing as Goku and Vegeta won't be surpassing Beerus and Whis anytime soon.

Nothing in Super aligns with that scale in anyway.

So then I'm assuming we are being asked to completely forget about the 10% line then. I really don't have a problem with it but it would be nice is someone said yeah we messed up, please ignore it. Plus what does the manga say about all this if we are going to start discussing the differences between media.

The manga doesn't really say anything in regards to power levels. Not that it matters. You can't take power levels from both the movies and Super and combine them. It just won't work. Far too many contradictions.