Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

whis/vados
---beerus pl and above---
beerus
champa
Hit
ssb goku/vegeta
golden frieza
ssj goku/vegeta
suprassed ssj vegeta
fp magenta
base goku/vegeta
heavily suprassed ssj goku
suprassed hit
---- bog ssg goku and above-----
final form frost/ssj cabba
Piccolo's beam attack
Assault form frost
suprassed base goku / base cabba
suprassed final form frost
initial magenta
first form frost
--- beerus 10% and above-----
ssj vegito
very suprassed base goku
Picoolo
enraged ssj2 vegeta
bog arc ssj3 goku
botamo

^^ I will stick to this as I think it is correct, forget numbers at least this is hierarchy which makes sense

[Chiki]

Freeza let his guard down against post recoome vegeta and nothing happened when vegeta was like only 1/3 of freeza's strength.
Gotenks was not even 2x super buu's strength, and let his guard down, and outright no-sold his strong mouth blast.
Vegeta later explained to krillin that he can "nearly kill him" if he intentionally weakens his defenses. Goku, who is the smartest fighter in the series, intentionally dropped his power level down to 5 in front of golden freeza? Makes sense.

They didn't let their guard down as much as Goku did. And yes, it is stupid, that's supposed to be, you know, Goku's character flaw. Goku's character flaw is stupid, we already had that hammered into our heads during RoF and Super. This is nothing new.

No, you need to read the bolded part again.

That's exactly what you said. Everyone is as strong as they need to be. Bulma is as strong as 70% Beerus because she beat up Goku!

And even without that, they have feats to show that they can easily tank a laser from someone nowhere near Zarbon or even dodoria, unless you can imagine nappa's mouth-blast doing the same to post whis goku.

Yeah.. when their guard is up. And when Goku's guard is down, Sorbet and Bulma can beat him up. Ok?

[TheMikado]

So how does this confirm the two base theory is dead? Or does every just accept Piccolo got a 20,000% power boost? Like seriously?

Because it wasn't mentioned at the opportune time, nothing was said or done so the implication is that he's the same as when he fought Botamo.

Base is not God Tier. It is closer to SSJ3 tier. Turning SSJ still makes them 50x stronger but is still not God tier. When they turn into SSJB is when they're God tier.

So... Vegeta lose badly against Hit in his SSGSS form, Goku on the other hand endure against Hit attack in his Base Form and even managed to hurt him? What the F***?

Hit was attacking pressure points which the general idea of that is that they are successful regardless of how weak or strong you are. SSJB Vegeta never touched Hit, if he had he'd surely hurt him, maybe even KOed him.

This is madness you have base Goku at his previous SSJ3 level then add a x50 multiplier on top of that?? Even at just 5% Beerus that would make SSJ Goku, not even Blue a 25 on the 6/10/15 scale.

Even if we ignore the scale and say Goku SSJ3 is a 1% we still have Vegetables get close to 10x the power of SSJ3 according to Super. Which means Vegeta got like a 4,000% power boost just hitting Beerus! I wish Vegetables got those kinds of boosts when the world was actually in danger or his son was killed...

[ZombieVito]

I'm still sticking to what I said earlier on this. Mr. Buu is heavily implied to be relevant in the tournament (if he made it), Piccolo was confirmed to be kinda-sorta relevant with his SBC, and the Uub epilogue where base Goku is still a good bit a weaker than a Pure Buu level fighter, still exists. That's after a good amount of training too, over five years in fact. So base Goku/Vegeta now would be... high SS2-tier, I guess, and SS would be x50 stronger than that, based on Vegeta's fight with Cabba. Cabba, true form Freeza, and assault form Frost would be around that same strength, while 1st form Frost and Piccolo would be a step below. But yeah, all generally within SS2-tier IMO. Frost's true form is obviously way stronger than any of these characters, but there's no way to tell exactly how much stronger. At the very least, the fact that Piccolo's SBC (~x3-4 his normal strength) > an exhausted Frost would imply that's he's actually a lot closer to the base tier than he is to Goku's SS.

I definitely think Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with any of the above, besides perhaps true form Frost. But again he can be anywhere as long as he's stronger than Goku's base and way weaker than his SS.

Yes, I agree. Goku did say Boo was incredible after getting mad after all. My only gripe is that it makes final form Freeza very weak, Boo and SSJ2 Gotenks could one shot his ass. This also confirms Gohan is weaker than Piccolo in base and in fact did not get weaker but just lost the ultimate power up. He does say after all that he "can't access" his full power.

P.S. Was Goku confirmed to be weaker than Oob in the epilogue?

[LightBing]

Assuming their bases are about SSJ3 level, here's some ball park numbers. Note, I don't believe in multipliers.

The gap reasoning is based on the 70% Beerus versus SSJG Goku, who was able to put up a great fight will being a 6 against a 7. The lower on the scale we get the smaller the gaps get, for decent fights to occur.

Spoiler:

Beerus - 10 (1000)

Base Goku - 0.5 (50)
SSJ Goku - 3 (300)
SSJB Goku - 7 (700)

Vegeta equal to Goku.

Hit (against Vegeta) - 6 (600)
He was able to get an advantage due to his techniques.

Hit (suppressed against Goku) - 1 (100)
He asks Goku if had forgotten how to transform. At the end of the episode, he claims he'll get serious.

Base Cabba - 0.5 (50)
SSJ Cabba - 1 (100)

Piccolo - 0.4 (40)

First Form Frost - 0.2 (20)
Assault Frost - 0.5 (50)
Final Form Frost - 0.9 (90)
Tired Frost - 0.6 (60)

Magetta(Initial) - 0.3 (30)
Magetta(Powered) - 1.3 (130)
While I think Magetta is weaker than the SSJs power-wise, his resistance and techniques make capable of trumping much stronger opponents.

Botamo - 0.1 (10)

This is likely to have some mistakes since I did it on the spot. Thoughts?

[ZombieVito]

I don't think anyone besides Goku, Vegeta and Hit are god tier. I wouldn't even put SSJ Cabba at 1 in the god scale. You also have Piccolo way to high without statements.

[LightBing]

I don't think anyone besides Goku, Vegeta and Hit are god tier. I wouldn't even put SSJ Cabba at 1 in the god scale. You also have Piccolo way to high without statements.

I agree that only those three are God Tier. I'm undecided if their bases are SSJ2 or SSJ3 levels. SSJ Gotenks was confident on taking out Freeza.
Piccolo doesn't have any statements but what increase I give him, isn't significant in the God Scale. In the Android Arc, the humans also powered up immensely but nobody said anything because they didn't matter in the "SSJ Scale" of the time. We even have a similar situation of Tenshinhan stalling Imperfect Cell and here Piccolo stalling Frost to defeat him.

[ssbgoku]

I don't think anyone besides Goku, Vegeta and Hit are god tier. I wouldn't even put SSJ Cabba at 1 in the god scale. You also have Piccolo way to high without statements.

sorry for breaking into discussion, but even although I would agree with you. Are you against ssj goku/vegeta or even in base using like only 10% of their power ?

I mean the beerus god of destruction is prime example it can be pulled out and work. Just 10% base goku would be below 10% of beerus for sure.

beerus- 10
base goku - 6.2
10% beerus - 1
10% base goku - 0.62
Enraged ssj2 vegeta - 0.2-0.3(noted only to suprass ssj goku and seeing how beerus was impressed)
bog ssj 3 goku - 0.067 - 0.1 (x3 weaker then enraged vegeta)
Picoolo/base gohan - 0.5

Thoughts ?. Couldn't it work. This way Besides hit everyone would be still kept at least below 10% of beerus ?. If I am wrong or you see flaw which I don't please address it , criticism would be appreciated

[ZombieVito]

No it wouldn't work. Until EoZ is retconned base Goku needs to be on par with Pure Boo.

[Chiki]

Assuming their bases are about SSJ3 level, here's some ball park numbers.

Base Goku can't be SSJ3 level since he took on 70% Beerus effectively. Toriyama confirmed that his base also has SSG power:

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.

He doesn't need to transform into SSB either.

Beerus: It seems as though while you had turned God and were fighting me, you absorbed that world into your body. Which is why, even though you've returned to normal, you haven't powered down all that much. You're something else. I might even say you're one of those rarely-seen prodigies.

Vegeta's ki is also equal to Post-SSG Base Goku's:

Goku: Amazing, Vegeta! I can't believe how much stronger you've grown! You might already be even stronger than I am! Your ki has a completely different quality to it than back when you were on Earth.

"Completely different quality" meaning it's not SS3 level.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... er/d1xag50

[Bullza]

This is madness you have base Goku at his previous SSJ3 level then add a x50 multiplier on top of that?? Even at just 5% Beerus that would make SSJ Goku, not even Blue a 25 on the 6/10/15 scale.

This is how I have it now.

Buu arc

SSJ3 Vegito - 400
SSJ2 Vegito - 100
Super Vegito - 50
Gohan Buu - 17
Gohan - 10
SSJ3 Gotenks - 8
SSJ2 Gotenks - 2
SSJ Gotenks - 1
SSJ3 Goku - 1
Kid Buu - 0.96
Good Buu - 0.5

BoG arc

Whis - 1,500
Beerus - 1,000
SSJG Goku - 600
Angry SSJ2 Vegeta - 50

RoF arc

Whis - 1,500
Beerus - 1,000
Golden Frieza - 800
SSJB Goku - 720
SSJB Vegeta - 685
Goku - 1.44
Vegeta - 1.37
Frieza Final Form - 1.3
SSJ Gohan - 1.08
Gohan - 0.022
Shisami - 0.0.22
Piccolo - 0.0.22

Champa arc

Whis - 1,500
Beerus - 1,000
Champa - 950
SSJB Goku - 790
SSJB Vegeta - 755
SSJ Goku - 79
SSJ Vegeta - 75.5
SSJ Cabba - 68.5
Magetta - 66
Frost (Final Form) - 52
Piccolo - ???
Frost (Third Form) - 1.75
Hit (Suppressed) - 1.6
Goku - 1.58
Vegeta - 1.51
Cabba - 1.44
Botamo - 1.37

I know Hit's placement is weird all things considered but his two abilities trump power.

[apex_pretador]

No it wouldn't work. Until EoZ is retconned base Goku needs to be on par with Pure Boo.

why he needs to be "on par" with kid buu?

[buutenks]

What about whis' statement about base saiyans being far below the level of gods?

[Chiki]

I know Hit's placement is weird all things considered but his two abilities trump power.

In the episode, Vegeta says that Hit is hiding most of his ki (you're right that he's suppressed) but that what little he can feel proves that Hit is stronger than the other contestants. So Hit has got to be way above SS Cabba while hiding his ki.

Btw, going by your reasoning, Yamcha with Hit's techniques >>> SSB Vegeta. That's just impossible lol.

What about whis' statement about base saiyans being far below the level of gods?

They still are quite a bit below Beerus and Champa, and they are nothing compared to Whis and Vados and probably other people outside of U6 and U7.

No it wouldn't work. Until EoZ is retconned base Goku needs to be on par with Pure Boo.

Wasn't Pan's age already retconned?

[ssbgoku]

No it wouldn't work. Until EoZ is retconned base Goku needs to be on par with Pure Boo.

why he needs to be "on par" with kid buu?

Then 1% of base goku would be lol - 0.062 which would be ssj3 tier a bit less or above.
For now if EOZ is not retconned then I have heavily suprassed base goku(1%) vs ubb just fine, but I would like to know reason behind your logic Zombie

[buutenks]

Hit's technique works because he has allot of raw power. He managed to one hit ko ssj blue vegeta(granted vegeta didnt expect it but still) and in NEP, he is taking hits from ssj blue goku, so he is very durable.

Also, yamcha having that ability would be useless since he'd be speedblitzed before he could think of using it lol.Think of it as frost vs ssj vegeta. Plus he doesnt know how to hit preassure points nor would he hit hard.

For that technique to be usefull, youd need a decent amount of speed and incredible striking power.

Edit:My best guess is for now, Hit is slightly below ssjb. basically if ssj blue is a 10 hit would be a 9.

For now,next ep my change it.

[ZombieVito]

No it wouldn't work. Until EoZ is retconned base Goku needs to be on par with Pure Boo.

why he needs to be "on par" with kid buu?

Because he thought Oob could beat him in base.

[apex_pretador]

No it wouldn't work. Until EoZ is retconned base Goku needs to be on par with Pure Boo.

why he needs to be "on par" with kid buu?

Because he thought Oob could beat him in base.

He wasn't serious.

He fought enraged uub and was probably suppressed, and still, just got barely a mild pain in wrist, and then he said uub is "as strong as expected", so obviously not above him.

[dbzfan7]

Here is all the relevant Oob quotes.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P2.4-8
Context: Vegeta asks Goku why he’s entering the next Tenkaichi Budoukai
Goku: “Because someone’s entering who seems incredible! I’ve had my eye on him for awhile, and he came to the tournament grounds this morning.”
Vegeta: “What!? …I don’t feel any ki that strong…”
Goku: “He’s completely suppressing his ki now. ..But somehow I can tell…that he’s definitely strong…”
Vegeta: “…Hmph, are you joking? There’s no way a guy like that could exist…Don’t tell me he’s an alien!?”
Goku: “Nope, he’s an Earthling.”
Bulma: “Huh!? That’s impossible.”

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P10.2
Context: Goku asks Boo to rig the match-ups so he can fight Oob
Goku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…”

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P10.6
Context: as Goku and Oob fight
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding…!?”
Gohan: “Wh-what is that kid…!?”

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P13.6
Goku: “Hey, Oob. Once your training is complete, we’ll have a match again, properly this time! [ ] To tell the truth, this is my number one objective!”

[ZombieVito]

Edit: never mind.