Anyone consider or want GT as canon?

[TheZFighter]

Dragon Ball started Jumping the Shark when Future Trunks first showed up.

I guess it depends how one views the point where the quality of the series starts to decline. If you think it did when Future Trunks arrived, fair enough. I mean, as somebody else said previously, the series definitely changed immensely the moment Goku was revealed to be an alien, but I still enjoyed the series after that revelation. I guess the first time I really started to question the series was after the introduction of Goten and Trunks.

Just because something jumped the shark doesn't mean the old stuff isn't enjoyable, case in point being the Simpsons.

The Simpsons is an excellent example. I can watch older episodes and still enjoy them, but The Simpsons isn't exactly like Dragon Ball. As opposed to being one long narrative, it is just a hell of a lot of individual stories, most of which are completely inconsequential. My point, which many seem to have missed for some reason, is that if you look at it as one long story, from the start of DB to the end of DBGT, it can be compared to a really, really long movie. If I watched a movie once and found two thirds of it were good, brilliant in fact, but the ending was crap, I probably wouldn't watch that movie again. I didn't like GT the first time I watched it, and I watched fully expecting it to be on par with DB and DBZ. Fortunately I know that GT is universally not considered canon, and I don't consider it canon myself, so I've been able to watch DB and DBZ the whole way through multiple times since the late 90s without the burden of GT. I haven't given Super much of a try yet but I'm sure I will at some point.

If you look at it that way, GT is only 12.5% of db+z+gt, so majority is still great and that can't be taken away.

You're right in what you're saying, but see the above.

[Zephyr]

Dragon Ball started Jumping the Shark when Future Trunks first showed up.

I guess it depends how one views the point where the quality of the series starts to decline. If you think it did when Future Trunks arrived, fair enough. I mean, as somebody else said previously, the series definitely changed immensely the moment Goku was revealed to be an alien, but I still enjoyed the series after that revelation. I guess the first time I really started to question the series was after the introduction of Goten and Trunks.

Yeah, it's most definitely open to interpretation. I think that the Saiyan arc is one of the best arcs in the series, and that the Freeza arc was essentially the perfect point to end the series. The Cell and Buu arcs, as much as I love them to death, just feel so much more shoddily written than everything before them.

Which isn't to say that the quality began to drop significantly or anything, just that it wasn't quite as well written. After the already cosmically silly levels of power that the characters have reached, Toriyama had to continually come up with more and more powerful foes. He did a damn fine job of pulling that off, but I think that there were more hiccups than prior. The Super Saiyan legend being undermined by pretty much every other Saiyan attaining it and constant updated iterations, almost everything about Future Trunks' immediate appearance (kid from a tragic future kills Freeza with a sword and he goes Super Saiyan and is the offspring of two characters with no prior indication of affection), tricky time travel, and the completely awkward 180 at the end of the Buu arc come to mind. Some of the most hotly contested fandom debates seem to come from this stretch of the series: Was Gohan "out of character" during the Cell Games? Was Gohan Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabura? Which Buu is strongest?

Though I can totally understand if Goku being an alien and the latter Freeza arc's insane power spikes comes off as shoddy writing. I just think that those were a lot better executed than the aforementioned problems I have with the latter two arcs.

[ABED]

I didn't like GT the first time I watched it, and I watched fully expecting it to be on par with DB and DBZ. Fortunately I know that GT is universally not considered canon

Even if GT was considered canon, it would be more like what Terminator 3 is to the first 2. It's not like one long movie. It's like 1 or 2 long movies and then a crappy sequel that's not necessary to complete the story. T1 and T2 tell a full compelling story and the fact that there are several terrible sequels doesn't affect the greatness of the first two.

(kid from a tragic future kills Freeza with a sword and he goes Super Saiyan and is the offspring of two characters with no prior indication of affection), tricky time travel

All time travel is tricky and doesn't hold up when you stop to think about it. I can't hold that against DBZ, and Vegeta and Bulma didn't need any prior indication of affection for that story to work. The whole point is that those feelings developed in the three years of training.

[TheMikado]

I didn't like GT the first time I watched it, and I watched fully expecting it to be on par with DB and DBZ. Fortunately I know that GT is universally not considered canon

Even if GT was considered canon, it would be more like what Terminator 3 is to the first 2. It's not like one long movie. It's like 1 or 2 long movies and then a crappy sequel that's not necessary to complete the story. T1 and T2 tell a full compelling story and the fact that there are several terrible sequels doesn't affect the greatness of the first two.

(kid from a tragic future kills Freeza with a sword and he goes Super Saiyan and is the offspring of two characters with no prior indication of affection), tricky time travel

All time travel is tricky and doesn't hold up when you stop to think about it. I can't hold that against DBZ, and Vegeta and Bulma didn't need any prior indication of affection for that story to work. The whole point is that those feelings developed in the three years of training.

Well I'm sure glad I don't consider Super canon at all then. It makes me like the series a lot more without Super bogging it down.

[ABED]

It doesn't matter if you see it as canon or not, it is. It's an official continuation of the series. You just don't have to watch it to get a full story.

[Cetra]

Fortunately I know that GT is universally not considered canon, ...

You know?

Universally?

[Danfun64]

Fortunately I know that GT is universally not considered canon, ...

You know?

Universally?

Clever
Maybe GT isn't a separate universe, but it probably *is* a different timeline.

All time travel is tricky and doesn't hold up when you stop to think about it.

I take it you hate Doctor Who, then

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

It doesn't matter if you see it as canon or not, it is. It's an official continuation of the series. You just don't have to watch it to get a full story.

GT is also an official continuation of the story though....

Both are canon, one's to MAIN canon, the one most people know about (ball-Z-GT)

The other canon is the ORIGINAL, by the original creator himself! Manga-Super (or maybe db kai and super??? They seam to fit better)

Both super and GT are part of an official dragonball continuity, making them both canon, it just depends if you watch or read dragonball more.

[ABED]

I take it you hate Doctor Who, then

I didn't mean it as a pejorative. I don't anything Dr. Who. I've just never been able to watch more than an episode. I love The Terminator in spite of time travel not making any sense in it. Seriously, John Connor sends Reese and a Terminator back in time to save himself, but if he is alive to send those two back, why would you need to send them back? Then there's the whole chicken and egg thing with Miles Dyson and the Terminator arm and chip.

[Cetra]

Fortunately I know that GT is universally not considered canon, ...

You know?

Universally?

Clever
Maybe GT isn't a separate universe, but it probably *is* a different timeline.

All time travel is tricky and doesn't hold up when you stop to think about it.

I take it you hate Doctor Who, then

What "clever"? And I am not talking about a seperate universe. It is just not a fact that it is not universally considered non-canonical, so saying someone knows that is a wrong claim.

I take it you hate Doctor Who, then

I didn't mean it as a pejorative. I don't anything Dr. Who. I've just never been able to watch more than an episode. I love The Terminator in spite of time travel not making any sense in it. Seriously, John Connor sends Reese and a Terminator back in time to save himself, but if he is alive to send those two back, why would you need to send them back? Then there's the whole chicken and egg thing with Miles Dyson and the Terminator arm and chip.

Time travel always depends on what you want to tell: Impossible causality paradoxes like destroying the cause of why you wanted to change something in the first place or the actual theoretically possible "bootstrap paradox" (chicken and egg as you say), the "whatever happened happened" paradox that is possible for the reason that time is theoretically a cycle without beginning and end.

[Kuririn Fan]

Vast majority is more accurate that universally.

[Cetra]

Vast majority is more accurate that universally.

And even that is baseless. I mean, what data do we have? We have some internet posts of people. Most fans of a franchise have no actual desire to participate in such things and do not waste time and thoughts about these things. There are way more Dragon Ball fans than what we see on the internet.

[Kuririn Fan]

Vast majority is more accurate that universally.

And even that is baseless. I mean, what data do we have? We have some internet posts of people. Most fans of a franchise have no actual desire to participate in such things and do not waste time and thoughts about these things. There are way more Dragon Ball fans than what we see on the internet.

My uncle walks Toriyamas cat and he has all the data.

[z_cherub]

I guess it depends how one views the point where the quality of the series starts to decline.

I don't know about decline, but there was a major tonal shift at Piccolo Daimao. So much so that I still wonder why Toei added the "Z" moniker at Radditz and not when Piccolo appeared...

As far as quality, I was on board when Trunks showed up up through the ROSAT training when laughable levels off SSJ started cropping up. That's an awkward point to start yelling, "not canon!", though...

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I guess it depends how one views the point where the quality of the series starts to decline.

I don't know about decline, but there was a major tonal shift at Piccolo Daimao. So much so that I still wonder why Toei added the "Z" moniker at Radditz and not when Piccolo appeared...

As far as quality, I was on board when Trunks showed up up through the ROSAT training when laughable levels off SSJ started cropping up. That's an awkward point to start yelling, "not canon!", though...

See that's acquainting non canon with bad.

It's fine to prefer the blank part of the story to be the end, but I don't care for the mentality of "I didn't like this. That just isn't canon."

It should be good, not canon. canon doesn't equal good. A lot of times non canon is better then canon, that goes for DBZ/star wars and many properties.

[Kuririn Fan]

I guess it depends how one views the point where the quality of the series starts to decline.

I don't know about decline, but there was a major tonal shift at Piccolo Daimao. So much so that I still wonder why Toei added the "Z" moniker at Radditz and not when Piccolo appeared...

As far as quality, I was on board when Trunks showed up up through the ROSAT training when laughable levels off SSJ started cropping up. That's an awkward point to start yelling, "not canon!", though...

Because Saiyan arc was a better place to start, story nicely concluded with the 23rd TB and then, 5 years later, new threat appeared. It did get serious with Daimao but then returned to gags with Boo, so it's not like that was the reason.

[Kuririn Fan]

See that's acquainting non canon with bad.

It's fine to prefer the blank part of the story to be the end, but I don't care for the mentality of "I didn't like this. That just isn't canon."

It should be good, not canon. canon doesn't equal good. A lot of times non canon is better then canon, that goes for DBZ/star wars and many properties.

Non canon doesn't mean it's bad, it just happens that the non canon stuff is not good.

[ABED]

Time travel always depends on what you want to tell: Impossible causality paradoxes like destroying the cause of why you wanted to change something in the first place or the actual theoretically possible "bootstrap paradox" (chicken and egg as you say), the "whatever happened happened" paradox that is possible for the reason that time is theoretically a cycle without beginning and end

I know that, if it's not clear, what I was saying is that time travel stories always create logic issues. That doesn't mean I don't think they can be good. It's best not to think to hard about an issue like this. Back to the Future is still a perfect movie regardless. And Trunks time traveling made for some interesting stories.

[VegettoEX]

My uncle walks Toriyamas cat and he has all the data.

Please do not make pointless contributions like this.

[successoroffate]

Well, There's a huge difference between "universally" and "vastly." My take on it is that both of them are overstatements. I would say GT is hated by some members of the community. But we can always make it interesting. You guys want Data? Let's make a poll here on the forum and see how it goes. What can possibly go wrong?

Again, keep in mind my avatar has Goku SSJ 5 fighting Cooler so you know I am serious.