Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And the biggest problem is that base Goku is portrayed to be at the level of SSG, and regular Super Saiyan is portrayed to be giving a really small boost now, not to mention that SSB's description implies that it replaced it. Yet not only we see regular Super Saiyan in the tournament, it also gives the same x50 boost as it did before. Add that Piccolo is placed between base & SS, like he was in Boo arc.

All he does is dominate Frost as a Super Saiyan. This Goku has trained far more since the battle with Freeza, so Super Saiyan being superior to his Base isn't really an issue. Beers was mad that Goku didn't use his full-power (Super Saiyan Blue) while fighting Frost, but he doesn't seem to be under the impression that he never fought with his all in Base. That's why I think Saiyan Beyond God=Base Goku in Super.

I also find it hard to believe because Botamo & Frost are supposed to be lazy fighters that haven't trained much because the first relies in his special ability & the other relies on tricks, and Cabba is shown to be a young Saiyan with the potential to be great, not that he has already become great.

That doesn't have to mean they're weak, though. Freeza was always lazy and was still looked at as the most powerful in the universe. Frost can be stronger than Freeza in every form except Golden and everything would still flow fine.

And Piccolo had already reached his limits since the Cell Games & couldn't even surpass the Super Saiyans all these years, yet he suddenly reaches the level of gods after a few months and no one even notices it?

That same logic could be used when assuming Base Goku was fighting at a level far weaker than what he displayed against Freeza despite training in the rosat for 3 yrs with Vegeta. Also, Piccolo was fighting a completely worn down Frost, so we really have no way of knowing what level he was at.

He was even considered weaker than Majin Boo when they were creating the team, and we saw him being on par with a weakened Ultimate Gohan (his hairstyle has changed once again, but his eyes are still normal) and no one threw even a hint that he has suddenly become so strong?

I dunno. You'd think it would've been noted, but I'd also think it'd be noted that Base Goku (while being knocked around by Assault Frost) was holding-back or not utilizing all of his power in that form. We're given no such statement, so it's best to just assume he was fighting at his best.

Personally, I mainly go by it because it is officially a thing in video-games (Dragon Ball Heroes specifically). Why would they make up a form that doesn't exist? People call this a fan-theory when it really isn't a fan-theory. The real fan-theory is that Super retconned things.

I know Saiyan Beyond God is a thing, but it's never distinguished in Super. Base Goku takes on Final Form Freeza without transforming because he's strong enough to, Goku takes on Assault Form Frost and transforms to Super Saiyan because Frost is more than a match, and Goku just seems to be focused on adapting to Hit's technique before transforming. At no point is Base Goku fighting Frost and Base Goku adapting to Hit regarded as being any different than the other.

[Cipher]

I thought even in Heroes it was more to differentiate Resurrection F Goku from previous base Gokus -- and to justify his being stronger. Not that it was a "form" current Goku could turn on and off at will.

And yeah -- I can't buy a "two base form" theory, as it just doesn't seem like something any viewer of the show would conclude unless they were already steeped in the odd jargon of power debates. It's way too complicated for either Toriyama or Toei to introduce unexplained. Dragon Ball characters already have the ability to use fractions of the power at will too.

Piccolo hasn't seen a radical increase from the Boo arc, is told by Goku that he's much weaker than Frost, and spends nearly the entire fight dodging and charging his blast. If he's able to hang in there a little more capably than expected, Frost is worn out and it's standard Toei theatricality (which is always frustratingly ignored in these types of discussions). Goku and Vegeta are quite strong in base, which lines up with just about everything seen at the tournament -- Frost would be more or less even to final-form Freeza, Cabba is either that strong in base or Vegeta's really going easy (either of which are fine), Magetta's super-durable, and Hit is slightly weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, but capable of dealing with it.

I also find it hard to believe because Botamo & Frost are supposed to be lazy fighters that haven't trained much because the first relies in his special ability & the other relies on tricks, and Cabba is shown to be a young Saiyan with the potential to be great, not that he has already become great.

Vados was told to find fighters "guaranteed to win." Botamo's ability could allow him to stall out anyone one on one, but turns out to be hilarious short-sighted when the rules involve ring-outs. Frost being on par with the revived Freeza makes sense, as he's been throwing himself into war zones (though not training with enough dedication to tap into something similar to Freeza's golden form). Cabba's a bit of a mystery, but Vados was also told to find a Saiyan. Either he really is one of the strongest, and they've hit a higher base power in Universe 6, or he's not, and Vegeta's going a bit light on him, since we already know he's saving power for Hit. Either way, nothing's super confusing, even if Cabba's strength is unclear.

[Lord Beerus]

- Frieza is told that Goku beat Buu and he still decides to fight him in his Final Form. Then at the end of that fight he tells Goku he's stronger than he thought, well he thought he was stronger than Buu.

Does Freeza know exactly how strong Majin Boo is? All King Cold told him is that he shouldn't fight him. I mean, as far as Freeza is concerned, Majin Boo could strong as Super Saiyan.

- Goku and Vegeta put up a better fight against Whis than SSJ3 Goku did against Beerus.

Goku and Vegeta putting up a better fight against Whis than SSJ3 Goku did against Beerus doesn't really mean much. I mean, hell, Goku and Vegeta still couldn't even land a punch on Whis. And Whis wasn't taking the fight seriously.

- Goku and Vegeta took "hits" from a unrestrained Beerus when he was asleep and were mostly OK. Beerus at less than 10% casually flicked SSJ3 Goku and sent him flying, he did the same to Gotenks.

I almost certain that scene was a gag and not meant to taken seriously. Much like Goku punching Monaka in the face.

- Base Gohan is about on par with Piccolo so SSJ Gohan is 50x stronger than that, Frieza in his first form is stronger than that and in his Final Form he's supposed to exponentially more powerful. It was over 200x on Namek.

I personally don't think SSJ Gohan is all that powerful to begin with. I think Gohan actually gotten weaker since the BOG arc. And it's never stated how much percentage of power Freeza uses in his Final Form when he actually does fight Goku.

[Bullza]

If you have an alternative, please say so. Until then, we have to accept that the two bases theory is right, because it's by far the best view which explains everything and it has already been accepted in video games and RoF.

But that isn't a view at all. If the two base theory was real they'd have made that clear in this episode. He didn't power up at all, he didn't say anything, nobody else said anything.

It was a decent theory early on under the assumption that later it would be explained, that chance has come and gone now.

It's really not that confusing and kinda like what I said before.

1. Goku becomes a SSJG and his time limit runs.

2. The God power runs throughout his body while being absorbed which allows his Base and SSJ form to remain God tier.

3. After the fight he's more powerful than before but not as powerful as during the Beerus fight because seemingly the God power goes somewhat dormant.

4. Through training with Whis Goku learns to withdraw this power once again and become a SSJG on his own which is now SSJB.

5. Base Goku due to having a portion of God power combined with his training is stronger than Final Form Frieza and Botamo and is on par with Base Cabba and a suppressed Hit.

6. Turning into a SSJ makes him 50x stronger and on par or stronger than the likes of Frost, Magetta and SSJ Cabba but he is nowhere near God tier. Obviously Piccolo is not remotely close either.

7. He withdraws all of his God power and becomes a SSJB at which point he is God tier. Hit and Champa's reaction tells you it's obviously much more powerful than SSJ.

8. Hit even though he's heavily suppressed can still defeat SSJB Vegeta because of his time skip abilities and attacking pressure points. Base Goku even though not as powerful can hold his own because he can counter these abilities.

That's pretty straight forward.

[LowRyder2005]

I mean, what it the evidence for Base Goku or Final Form Freeza being stronger than Majin Boo anyway?

- Frieza is told that Goku beat Buu and he still decides to fight him in his Final Form. Then at the end of that fight he tells Goku he's stronger than he thought, well he thought he was stronger than Buu.

- Goku and Vegeta put up a better fight against Whis than SSJ3 Goku did against Beerus.

- Goku and Vegeta took "hits" from a unrestrained Beerus when he was asleep and were mostly OK. Beerus at less than 10% casually flicked SSJ3 Goku and sent him flying, he did the same to Gotenks.

- Base Gohan is about on par with Piccolo so SSJ Gohan is 50x stronger than that, Frieza in his first form is stronger than that and in his Final Form he's supposed to exponentially more powerful. It was over 200x on Namek.

While I think they make up for interesting and pertinent observations, I don't think they are "heavy counters". The other side could find some explanation:

- Freeza couldn't have possibly know how strong Buu really was. My opinion is that this is a hard fact everyone should acknowledge. He couldn't sense ki before his training, he just knows that he was stronger than his 100% form on Namek. So any comparison involving himself and Buu according to what Freeza thought of Buu and Goku can't really help us pinpoint his realm of power. We do know that in his Golden Form he is comparable to a God tier through power-scaling, but that's it.
Gotenks can sense ki for one, and he thinks he can easily take on First Form Freeza in his Super Saiyan Form. Again, it is significant that Fusion ends right before that... it means Toriyama didn't want to show us Gotenks vs. Freeza because he probably thought it was the best thing for the plot.
On the other hand... well, Gotenks is not the most reliable source, but it's somewhat the only valid one here (i.e. Bulma says Freeza is stronger, but Bulma can't sense ki, Gohan next says Goten can't handle First Form Freeza, but Goten and Trunks can't fuse anyway before another hour). As far as we know, perhaps he could at least put up a somewhat decent fight against Final Form Freeza.

- True, but Whis may have been fighting at a level below Beerus'. Whis has no reason to curbstomp Goku and Vegeta if he wants to train them, right? He'd surely have to fight them at a level where it was challenging for them, but not a one-sided massacre. Now, if only Whis had said he himself was fighting at 10% it would be a different story.

- Same here. Beerus may have been at 10% or even less. I know he's sleeping, but... well, anyway, this may at most prove that Goku and Vegeta are above some undetermined percentage of Beerus.
We know for sure that Beerus can't be at 100%, because he would have probably killed both Goku and Vegeta even if they had turned Blue. This already validates the idea that Beerus may possibly have been at some low percentage even when sleeping.

- That may be true. I mean, it seems to be the most straightforward explanation. I still think that Piccolo was just more fatigued because of the prolonged fighting with his weighted clothing.

All in all, it won't change the fact that Super lacks proper exposition.

[Lord Beerus]

Dragon Ball Hereos has also given us bullshit like Angered Golden Freeza and Angered Beerus.

Totally not the same thing.

Uh, they totally are the same thing. They are both bullshit made up forms created for the sake of Heroes pimping out more cards, not for providing supplementary material for the main story of the anime.

Oh, and you can count me as a part of the "Two base forms don't exist" group.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

All he does is dominate Frost as a Super Saiyan. This Goku has trained far more since the battle with Freeza, so Super Saiyan being superior to his Base isn't really an issue. Beers was mad that Goku didn't use his full-power (Super Saiyan Blue) while fighting Frost, but he doesn't seem to be under the impression that he never fought with his all in Base.

The problem is that after Goku absorbed the SSG power, regular Super Saiyan gave him an insignificant boost in power. Yet here, he gets a x50 boost once again, which should make him far stronger than even Whis.

That doesn't have to mean they're weak, though. Freeza was always lazy and was still looked at as the most powerful in the universe. Frost can be stronger than Freeza in every form except Golden and everything would still flow fine.

But Freeza still had to train to reach the level of gods. Goku suggested Frost to train like Freeza, implying that he hasn't trained like Freeza.

That same logic could be used when assuming Base Goku was fighting at a level far weaker than what he displayed against Freeza despite training in the rosat for 3 yrs with Vegeta.

After Goku absorbed the power of SSG, he had been around for months before he went to train with Whis. The fact that no one says anything about base Goku means that they already know what's going on.

Also, Piccolo was fighting a completely worn down Frost, so we really have no way of knowing what level he was at.

So worn out that he had gotten thousands of times weaker?

I know Saiyan Beyond God is a thing, but it's never distinguished in Super. Base Goku takes on Final Form Freeza without transforming because he's strong enough to, Goku takes on Assault Form Frost and transforms to Super Saiyan because Frost is more than a match, and Goku just seems to be focused on adapting to Hit's technique before transforming. At no point is Base Goku fighting Frost and Base Goku adapting to Hit regarded as being any different than the other.

It's not been distinguished directly, but the fight with Hit shows that there isn't a monstrous difference between base & SSB, which goes against what we see in the previous fights.

Uh, they totally are the same thing. They are both bullshit made up forms created form the sake of Heroes pimping out more cards, not for providing supplementary material for the main story of the anime.

Enraged Beerus & Golden Freeza are excuses to give Beerus & Golden Freeza something new in order to promote Super ("they get angry, so they get stronger"). Saiyan beyond God is supposed to be a thing. You may not like it, and maybe you feel that Super retconned it, but it is officially a thing.

[dbzfan7]

I'm curious to hear the side about the non two base theory, regarding Goku not using SSJ. We know as a fact Goku mastered SSJ so there would be no strain in stamina or energy. Yet when facing Hit, he doesn't use SSJ. We know why he didn't use SSJB, but why not just plain SSJ? We saw it still gives a boost. So why hold back on using it against the guy who beat SSJB Vegeta? That to me is one of the strongest cases for the two base theory. If there isn't, then why not just use SSJ to get more power, but not waste stamina?

[Doctor.]

I'm curious to hear the side about the non two base theory, regarding Goku not using SSJ. We know as a fact Goku mastered SSJ so there would be no strain in stamina or energy. Yet when facing Hit, he doesn't use SSJ. We know why he didn't use SSJB, but why not just plain SSJ? We saw it still gives a boost. So why hold back on using it against the guy who beat SSJB Vegeta? That to me is one of the strongest cases for the two base theory. If there isn't, then why not just use SSJ to get more power, but not waste stamina?

Super is retarded.

There's your answer.

[Cipher]

I'm curious to hear the side about the non two base theory, regarding Goku not using SSJ. We know as a fact Goku mastered SSJ so there would be no strain in stamina or energy. Yet when facing Hit, he doesn't use SSJ. We know why he didn't use SSJB, but why not just plain SSJ? We saw it still gives a boost. So why hold back on using it against the guy who beat SSJB Vegeta? That to me is one of the strongest cases for the two base theory. If there isn't, then why not just use SSJ to get more power, but not waste stamina?

Base is easier, he can still figure Hit out that way, and Toei doesn't care about those little distinctions.

I mean, that's really it. It's a cop-out meta answer, but in no way does a missing use of Super Saiyan, from an equally meta perspective, lead me to believe that something as absurdly complicated as two different base "forms" has been quietly introduced into the series by Toriyama or Toei. I think these conversations really suffer for not allowing for that simple element of theatricality, and some allowance for the meta elements of the series--you get back and forths that really miss the forest through the trees.

Super is retarded.

There's your answer.

This is a dumb way of saying what I'm trying to say, yeah.

[LowRyder2005]

I'd like to hear some opinions too, namely on the "Base Goku is 1/50 of his Super Saiyan God = Super Saiyan form" idea - in theory, the most straightforward reprocessing of what we have been shown so far.

This wouldn't, in turn, make everyone from U6 necessarily stronger than Buu, aside from Magetta (Super Saiyan Vegeta looks pretty concerned and acts like he has to avoid his direct attacks).

Botamo = Android tier?
Cabba = Super Perfect Cell
Final Form Freeza/ Final Form Frost = Super Buu
Super Saiyan Cabba = Base Vegito
Magetta = 50% Beerus?
Super Saiyan Goku/ Vegeta = 70% Beerus
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/ Vegeta = 85% Beerus

@dbzfan: I still hope that in the manga we have the aura for Base Goku vs. Hit. I think it would potentially set things straight: Goku would visually be the same he was against Freeza, and it could confirm that his Base can in fact be stronger than his Super Saiyan form.

[Bullza]

Does Freeza know exactly how strong Majin Boo is?

He shouldn't do but the line was written there for a reason right? He's told that Goku defeated Buu but they don't know what happened afterwards. So essentially it's like saying well he would have surpassed Goku but he doesn't know about his new SSJG power.

How could Goku be stronger than he thought if he didn't have an idea on how strong Buu was supposed to be? He shouldn't know exactly how strong Beerus is either but he crapped himself when he saw him.

I mean, hell, Goku and Vegeta still couldn't even land a punch on Whis. And Whis wasn't taking the fight seriously.

They didn't but Vegeta got a hold of him. Also Beerus chopped SSJ3 Goku in the neck and he's done. Whis chops Vegeta in the neck and he's up after about 30 seconds. It's not like Beerus was serious himself.

I almost certain that scene was a gag and not meant to taken seriously.

Perhaps but then it's kinda odd that Vegeta would be so specific to point out that he was unrestrained. And was it really that funny? It kinda was but not enough to say it was just comic relief or anything.

I personally don't think SSJ Gohan is all that powerful to begin with. I think Gohan actually gotten weaker since the BOG arc. And it's never stated how much percentage of power Freeza uses in his Final Form when he actually does fight Goku.

He might have been weaker since BoG but his SSJ would still have to be much stronger than Goku's SSJ because his base form was seemingly much stronger than Goku's.

Even if Frieza was at the low end of the Final Form power. It'd still make him at least 8x stronger. And it wouldn't make sense for him to hold back because he said last time he was caught off guard.

[Lord Beerus]

Uh, they totally are the same thing. They are both bullshit made up forms created form the sake of Heroes pimping out more cards, not for providing supplementary material for the main story of the anime.

Enraged Beerus & Golden Freeza are excuses to give Beerus & Golden Freeza something new in order to promote Super ("they get angry, so they get stronger"). Saiyan beyond God is supposed to be a thing. You may not like it, and maybe you feel that Super retconned it, but it is officially a thing.

But it isn't. Nothing in Super so far has indicated that Goku has the power of a Super Saiyan God in his base form. Hell, everything so far points to the opposite.

[dbzfan7]

I'm curious to hear the side about the non two base theory, regarding Goku not using SSJ. We know as a fact Goku mastered SSJ so there would be no strain in stamina or energy. Yet when facing Hit, he doesn't use SSJ. We know why he didn't use SSJB, but why not just plain SSJ? We saw it still gives a boost. So why hold back on using it against the guy who beat SSJB Vegeta? That to me is one of the strongest cases for the two base theory. If there isn't, then why not just use SSJ to get more power, but not waste stamina?

Base is easier, he can still figure Hit out that way, and Toei doesn't care about those little distinctions.

I mean, that's really it. It's a cop-out meta answer, but in no way does a missing use of Super Saiyan, from an equally meta perspective, lead me to believe that something as absurdly complicated as two different base "forms" has been quietly introduced into the series by Toriyama or Toei. I think these conversations really suffer for not allowing for that simple element of theatricality, and some allowance for the meta elements of the series--you get back and forths that really miss the forest through the trees.

But it's not easier. If there is no two bases. There is only one and the forms go Base->SSJ->SSJB, then there's no reason at all to not use SSJ. As I said. There is no downside to using SSJ. It'd be the more powerful state, without sacrificing any energy or stamina. That was the entire point for Goku mastering the form in the Cell arc. To remove all limitations. Now he for some reason ignores it? I'm just saying it makes for a good case is all. IMO, Super is absolutely as dumb as GT when it comes to this stuff, and hardly cares.

Super is retarded.

There's your answer.

This is a dumb way of saying what I'm trying to say, yeah.

I also agree with this. Super really doesn't give a crap. I believe I posted that Super Power levels, like GT power levels are like a puzzle game. With this puzzle we're missing a crap ton of pieces, and some of the pieces we do have are torn and messed up. So it's a pretty impossible to complete puzzle.

[Lord Beerus]

All in all, it won't change the fact that Super lacks proper exposition.

Fucking this.

I'd take anything this stage. A short speech, a brief mental dialogue, a throwaway line, a fucking aura... just anything. Please, Super, give us something substantial to work with here. It's GT all over again.

[Cipher]

I don't think we're "missing pieces" so long as the viewer can accept that there's some fluidity to the way relative strengths are portrayed. Allowing for a little bit of theatricality in both GT and Super render them far from unreadable messes.

But I'm aware I'm telling that to the wrong crowed in this thread. I've never been into playing the power-level game or scrutinizing each moment of footage as long as the broad strokes makes sense. Goku can use base to test out Hit and Hit can still be Super Saiyan Blue-tier as long as everything else points that way. Anything else just seems like an enormously frustrating way to watch the show.

IMO, Super is absolutely as dumb as GT when it comes to this stuff, and hardly cares.

Yes, right. Super doesn't care. That doesn't mean it's a total mess. It just means you might get things like Goku warming up against Hit in base form. Whatever? Way easier to accept that than to try to rewrite your understanding of the show and its strengths around that moment.

[Skar]

Hello was there any indication that Piccolo and Gohan trained in the manga? It seems too important to leave out of the manga if it was written by Toriyama. That could be evidence for the two base theory unless we're going to assume Piccolo reached God tier within the few days before the tournament.

I would go with SSJB Goku and Vegeta/Hit > Mr. Buu > normal SSJ Goku and Vegeta > everyone else at the tournament.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The problem is that after Goku absorbed the SSG power, regular Super Saiyan gave him an insignificant boost in power. Yet here, he gets a x50 boost once again, which should make him far stronger than even Whis.

That was back during BoG. Since he's had yrs to train with the God Power after merging with it, that's more than enough time to make Super Saiyan more useful than it was back then.

But Freeza still had to train to reach the level of gods. Goku suggested Frost to train like Freeza, implying that he hasn't trained like Freeza.

Frost being superior to Freeza's power during his reign of terror already shows he's far different in power. If Frost trained, he could reach a level akin to Golden Freeza.

After Goku absorbed the power of SSG, he had been around for months before he went to train with Whis. The fact that no one says anything about base Goku means that they already know what's going on.

He might've absorbed the God Power, but he wasn't exactly Saiyan Beyond God yet. That's something he reached after training with Whis. Before that, both he and Vegeta weren't in the Godly realm of power. The only time they'd be aware of his Base being that powerful is when he fought Freeza.

So worn out that he had gotten thousands of times weaker?

I dunno. All we know is he was considerably weaker. Piccolo's Makankousappo looked pretty ridiculous, though.

It's not been distinguished directly, but the fight with Hit shows that there isn't a monstrous difference between base & SSB, which goes against what we see in the previous fights.

Goku does no type of power-up or anything to differentiate the two.

Super Saiyan Blue is just a bigger increase than Super Saiyan because it's his most powerful form. Goku thought Super Saiyan was enough to beat Frost and was a bit surprised that that wasn't even enough. Assuming that it's a totally different Goku using Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue just makes this even more confusing than it needs to be.

Goku used Super Saiyan, lost to Frost, was called an idiot by Beers for not using his full-power, and there's no indication that Saiyan Beyond God was ever a factor in anyone's mind during these comparisons . You simply end up with Super Saiyan Blue Goku>Super Saiyan Goku>Base.

[Bullza]

Freeza couldn't have possibly know how strong Buu really was.

Well let's look at it another way. On Namek First Form Frieza's power level was 530,000. In his Final Form at it's lowest it's at about 4 million right? It about doubles with each transformation. So he's 7-8x more powerful between his first and final forms minimum.

SSJ3 is 8x more powerful than SSJ1. If SSJ1 Goku was equal to First Form Frieza then SSJ3 Goku should be about equal to Final Form Frieza.

However First Form Frieza should be much more powerful than SSJ1 Goku because he's supposed to be more powerful than SSJ1 Gohan, Piccolo and the others. So he should be more than SSJ3 Goku in his Final Form even if the gap between forms was at a bare minimum.

True, but Whis may have been fighting at a level below Beerus'.

Perhaps but it's a visual thing. Base Goku and Vegeta held up better against a suppressed Whis than SSJ3 Goku held up against a suppressed Beerus. It makes them look like they're stronger.

We know for sure that Beerus can't be at 100%

Well it wasn't really a proper hit, he just caught them as he turned over in his sleep. It ain't a proper martial arts kick but you'd think it'd still hurt more than a flick at under 10%.

[Cipher]

Hello was there any indication that Piccolo and Gohan trained in the manga? It seems too important to leave out of the manga if it was written by Toriyama. That could be evidence for the two base theory unless we're going to assume Piccolo reached God tier within the few days before the tournament.

I would go with SSJB Goku and Vegeta/Hit > Mr. Buu > normal SSJ Goku and Vegeta > everyone else at the tournament.

There's no indication that Piccolo is "god-tier." He spends his fight dodging a weakened character who we're told is far stronger than him.