Super is not so bad like someone says

[Lord Beerus]

Nope. Z used it's cast a lot better than Super. At least they all got screen time there.

Z ditched half of the original cast once the Saiyan arc ended. The jury is still out with Super.

[DragonHermit]

DBZ completely erased Launch as a character (who was one my favourite DB characters). DBZ sucks!

[DragonHermit]

So again, nobody wants Goku or Vegeta to be relegated to side character roles. All people desire, whether they realize it or not, is a better structured story that doesn't overemphasize on any one or two characters.

Yes, because Beerus, Whis, Goku, Vegeta, Champa, Vados, Hit, Cabba, are only 1-2 characters. The Champa arc is only a dip in the water, and people are already whining.

[TekTheNinja]

I don't think people want Goku stripped of his role as the main character

That's exactly what it is. People were complaining that GT didn't involve Vegeta, then Toriyama included Vegeta. Now they're complaining about Piccolo and Buu. Like wtf. Just enjoy the show. If you want to make Piccolo and Tien the main characters go write fan fiction.

The whole point of the show is to show Goku's growth from a child to a grandfather in EoZ, where he passes the torch to Uub.

False.

What we want is a better spread of character use. Let's compare it to another franchise for a second here... I'll use Star Wars. Who is the main character? Luke, clearly. But do the others do things? Yes, yes they do. It's pretty simple shit.

Yes, because Beerus, Whis, Goku, Vegeta, Champa, Vados, Hit, Cabba, are only 1-2 characters. The Champa arc is only a dip in the water, and people are already whining.

The only ones beside Goku and Vegeta there are new characters. This WOULD be fine, but this show is doing a terrible job at getting us invested in most of them. That and old beloved characters being replace by new characters has always been a huge problem with Dragon Ball.

[DragonHermit]

This WOULD be fine, but this show is doing a terrible job at getting us invested in most of them.

Yeah it's not like anyone likes Beerus, Champa, Hit, Cabba, etc... If only Tien could do a SPC on Beerus and kill him, that would be awesome.

I always thought that a new series meant introducing new characters, but oh well.

[TekTheNinja]

Nope. Z used it's cast a lot better than Super. At least they all got screen time there.

Z ditched half of the original cast once the Saiyan arc ended. The jury is still out with Super.

Not really. They still all did more than they do in super.

DBZ completely erased Launch as a character (who was one my favourite DB characters). DBZ sucks!

Well that actually WAS a problem. No one is saying Z is completely innocent.

[Lord Beerus]

Nope. Z used it's cast a lot better than Super. At least they all got screen time there.

Z ditched half of the original cast once the Saiyan arc ended. The jury is still out with Super.

Not really. They still all did more than they do in super.

Roshi did nothing in Z. They at least threw him a bone and had him battle Freeza's army.

[Cipher]

To be fair, there is a difference between Beerus et. all and previous cast members we're meant to be sympathetic to. Beerus, Whis, Champa and Vados are all obstacles more than genuine characters we're expected to cheer for and watch change. They're not the same as the rest of the cast.

And Z did do a better job at points of managing an ensemble cast. Not all the time, but there were definitely highlights like the Namek arc and the early Cell arc. Even the Boo arc did a great job of separating characters into different plots, though I'd have hated to be on the Internet the week it became clear the climax would come down to Goku, Vegeta and Mr. Satan on the Kaioshin planet.

But if there's one thing Super has made aggressively clear to me, it's that you can't have someone's favorite character not do something for a minute, and there are many times earlier material would have drawn similar complaints had the means of broadcasting them existed during its release.

[Hellspawn28]

I don't think people want Goku stripped of his role as the main character

That's exactly what it is. People were complaining that GT didn't involve Vegeta, then Toriyama included Vegeta. Now they're complaining about Piccolo and Buu. Like wtf. Just enjoy the show. If you want to make Piccolo and Tien the main characters go write fan fiction.

People was even complaining that Goku and Vegeta didn't fight in the 2008 Jump Special. I remember some people here was like "Why is Goten and Trunks fighting? It should be Goku and Vegeta!". One thing I learn from DB fans is that they will want something and bitch about it when they finally get it.

[fadeddreams5]

So again, nobody wants Goku or Vegeta to be relegated to side character roles. All people desire, whether they realize it or not, is a better structured story that doesn't overemphasize on any one or two characters.

Yes, because Beerus, Whis, Goku, Vegeta, Champa, Vados, Hit, Cabba, are only 1-2 characters. The Champa arc is only a dip in the water, and people are already whining.

Besides Beerus and Whis, all those other character you mentioned are presented as obstacles for Goku and Vegeta to overcome. What has Cabba done so far? Fight Vegeta and lose. What do we know about him? He's a saiyan from Planet Salada. That's not to say Super won't make better use of them, but if it does, that goes back to what I wrote about creating a better structured story. As of now, and since Super began, there's been an overemphasis on Goku and Vegeta.

And mind you, I personally wouldn't want a saga to include EVERY DB character and give them all major roles. It's completely fine for many to not appear at all! Launch and Pilaf disappearing from DBZ was a wise decision, imo.

[IM21]

I get it that some people would like to see side characters be relevant, but c'mon lets be honest Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, Goten, Trunks and even Piccolo or Gohan can't do shit anymore. Goku, Vegeta, Gods, etc. are just way overpowered. So I just don't see old characters have a lot of battle time. I do hope Gohan gets back on track tho.

[DragonHermit]

And mind you, I personally wouldn't want a saga to include EVERY DB character and give them all major roles. It's completely fine for many to not appear at all! Launch and Pilaf disappearing from DBZ was a wise decision, imo.

If Super ended at this tournament, yes there would be a lack of structured story. But remember 24 episodes were just movie retellings, that HAD to be done to be consistent with Z, while this tournament is just the start of a new saga.

The "real Super" is just beginning. BoG and RoF were just there to make $ in theaters.

[Cipher]

If Super ended at this tournament, yes there would be a lack of structured story. But remember 24 episodes were just movie retellings, that HAD to be done to be consistent with Z, while this tournament is just the start of a new saga.

The "real Super" is just beginning. BoG and RoF were just there to make $ in theaters.

I don't think that's an argument that can be made for the series, regardless of how anyone feels about it. 40 episodes is 40 episodes.

[DragonHermit]

If Super ended at this tournament, yes there would be a lack of structured story. But remember 24 episodes were just movie retellings, that HAD to be done to be consistent with Z, while this tournament is just the start of a new saga.

The "real Super" is just beginning. BoG and RoF were just there to make $ in theaters.

I don't think that's an argument that can be made for the series, regardless of how anyone feels about it. 40 episodes is 40 episodes.

It's an argument for story structure not for music, animation, choreography.

The lack of a long term story structure is because most of the series has just retold movies, that were supposed to be stand alone stories.

[Kuririn Fan]

Roshi did nothing in Z. They at least threw him a bone and had him battle Freeza's army.

Roshi passed the torch to new generation. His arc was complete.

[precita]

As long as Gohan comes back as a major character, Piccolo, Goten/Trunks do SOMETHING, and the writers get some use out of 18 and Krillin, I'll be fine.

[irreality]

I disagree with people's perception of the utilization of characters in the show for two reasons:

1. Dragon Ball has never been an ensemble show. It is a show with a main character, and the other characters are never going to be a dominant force. They never have been. Recurring characters come and go in their importance. It isn't about saying "oh it is the Goku show" -- well, yes, it *is* the Goku show. It is only a bad thing if Goku doesn't learn from or interact with the other characters in meaningful ways -- but he does interact with others in great ways, even if they are short-lived characters. But his perspective and his actions will always shape the plot, and the importance of other characters will be determined by how their actions interact with Goku's.

2. *That said*: Importance of characters is no way equated with "fights won". Like, people are saying Piccolo has not been influential in the tournament. I disagree. His amazing fight with Frost is what revealed his weakness. And he has been there coming up with strategies and talking things out with Goku. It gives him this "advisor" vibe which he has always been so great at. He doesn't need to win a fight to be relevant. I've also think Super has made Bulma far more front and center than she has been in a while. Clearly she will never fight, but she is involved with the plot and has independent relationships with the new main recurring characters. And speaking of which, Whis, Beerus and Vados and Champa have been great characters.

To say "It is the Goku and Vegeta show" because they are the only ones winning fights: yeah, of course. They are our heroes, we should be rooting for them, and they are the best fighters. That doesn't mean all plot actions revolve around them or the other characters have not been relevant or engaging -- they just have contributed to the "non fighting" portions of the show -- like teaching, strategy, investigation, humor, setting, world-building, etc.

Yeah, other characters like Gohan haven't been as involved. But I don't think it is the last we have seen of him, for example. But it might not be in the role of a principal fighter. On the other hand, I think Buu is just a red herring. He is not much of a character other than "Mr. Satan's friend". To expect him to be a compelling fighter is not realistic about his "character development hierarchy". He is pretty far removed from Goku's plot.

[TekTheNinja]

I don't think people want Goku stripped of his role as the main character

That's exactly what it is. People were complaining that GT didn't involve Vegeta, then Toriyama included Vegeta. Now they're complaining about Piccolo and Buu. Like wtf. Just enjoy the show. If you want to make Piccolo and Tien the main characters go write fan fiction.

People was even complaining that Goku and Vegeta didn't fight in the 2008 Jump Special. I remember some people here was like "Why is Goten and Trunks fighting? It should be Goku and Vegeta!". One thing I learn from DB fans is that they will want something and bitch about it when they finally get it.

You're referring to two different types of fans and acting as if they are the same people. They're not.

they just have contributed to the "non fighting" portions of the show -- like teaching, strategy, investigation, humor, setting, world-building, etc.

This is true of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and to a certain extent GT, but this is NOT true of Super. Most characters have barely even spoken.

[Draconic]

they just have contributed to the "non fighting" portions of the show -- like teaching, strategy, investigation, humor, setting, world-building, etc.

This is true of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and to a certain extent GT, but this is NOT true of Super. Most characters have barely even spoken.

Beerus, Whis, Champa, Vados, Kame-sennin, Tenshinhan, Jaco, Bulma, Mr Satan, Piccolo, Pilaf - all had something to do at one point or another in Super, outside of Goku and Vegeta. GT had Pan and kinda Trunks, with Vegeta coming at the end, not to provide anything but fusion-fodder. And Super is just 40 episodes. Of course Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z gave more time to more characters - combined they are 400 episodes! Super is utilizing it's characters well enough. Just that most of them don't fight, so people don't give a shit.

[Kuririn Fan]

How is it Goku and Vegeta clearing the entire Universe 6 team "utilizing characters well enough"?
Boo didn't even fight, Piccolo was wasted and Monaka is potentially the worst character in anything Dragon Ball related.