Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:01 pm

Made it his own = access it whenever he wants.
He made it his own in that it's a part of him and he doesn't need to go through the ritual again but it doesn't say anything about base form being equal to SSJG. Whis already said that turning SSJ would make them stronger thatd make SSJ stronger than SSJG but that's what SSJB is.
Rewatch the ep. Goku and Vegeta survive a full power ki attack from Beerus right after that tail incident.
I don't see it. Goku is hit with a tail, Vegeta is hit with a food, Goku is held in a MMA move and then the scene ends.
Therefore, Frost should be around Namek Frieza level.
You can't assume that because Frost could just naturally be stronger than Frieza. Frieza didn't train but he's much stronger than King Cold ain't he?
Last edited by Bullza on Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:04 pm

Final Form Frost>Final Form Freeza isn't an issue. It just means he's naturally stronger.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:09 pm

Bullza wrote:
Made it his own = access it whenever he wants.
He made it his own in that it's a part of him and he doesn't need to go through the ritual again but it doesn't say anything about base form being equal to SSJG. Whis already said that turning SSJ would make them stronger thatd make SSJ stronger than SSJG but that's what SSJB is.
Rewatch the ep. Goku and Vegeta survive a full power ki attack from Beerus right after that tail incident.
I don't see it. Goku is hit with a tail, Vegeta is hit with a food, Goku is held in a MMA move and then the scene ends.
Toriyama said he doesn't need to transform to use the power, which implies that he has the power to begin with.
made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.
He doesn't need to transform into SSG because he already has the power in Base, plain and simple.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/super/eps-018/

Sorry, wrong scene.
While Whis begins to wonder if maybe the pace is a little too fast, the Oracle Fish comes out to say Beerus seems to be waking up. Whis teleports everyone back into Beerus’ room, where the groggy Beerus shoots an energy blast from his mouth, nailing Goku and Vegeta head-on, then goes right back to sleep. Thankfully the two are still alive, and Whis declares training finished for the day.
Goku also says that Beerus wasn't holding back. Beerus would have obliterated SSJ3 Goku with the same ki blast. Goku was at base and needed SSG power to survive.

Therefore, Toriyama saying Goku has SSG power without needing to transform + Base Goku surviving Beerus's uninhibited ki blast = Base Goku has SSG power.
Final Form Frost>Final Form Freeza isn't an issue. It just means he's naturally stronger.
He's not naturally stronger, they're almost the same person. Final Form Frost would have to be a FAR FAR FAR bigger prodigy than Frieza, who is the biggest prodigy we've met by far. Final Form Frost is above RoF Final Form Frieza without training a day in his life, while Final Form Frieza trained for 4 months. That doesn't make any sense, especially considering the fact that Frost is Frieza's equivalent counterpart, so they are around equally talented. It makes no sense for them to have such different prodigious talents when they are counterparts.

Do you think that is logical? I certainly don't.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:11 pm

Chiki wrote:
ssbgoku wrote:
Chiki wrote: ? This is the two base theory.
Technicaly, no as you would have ssg looking as base(internal change->burning red fire) and just base. Although it is very simillair and arguably would be called like that.
That's exactly what I call the two base theory. Base w/ SSG power = internal change.
hmm fair enough, but it would be slightly different from base this way can not be called base lol 8) . I would seriously love and hope for beerus or whis to comments about internal change aka ssg word being accessed through goku base or even invisible aura around them which would be pointed out by vegeta or someone. Hell maybe even Hit would comment that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:14 pm

haha, idk if we will get an answer.

This is exactly like the base saiyans, 18 piccolo think in buu saga lol ^^. Except this time its u6 fighters not 18 and piccolo.

We know transformed goku and vegeta are far superior but base, who knows ^^.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:15 pm

Chiki wrote:
ssbgoku wrote:
Chiki wrote: ? This is the two base theory.
Technicaly, no as you would have ssg looking as base(internal change->burning red fire) and just base. Although it is very simillair and arguably would be called like that.
That's exactly what I call the two base theory. Base w/ SSG power = internal change.
Yeah that's pretty much what he's been saying the whole time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:20 pm

buutenks wrote:haha, idk if we will get an answer.

This is exactly like the base saiyans, 18 piccolo think in buu saga lol ^^. Except this time its u6 fighters not 18 and piccolo.

We know transformed goku and vegeta are far superior but base, who knows ^^.
That was a little better because they couldn't really use "Super Powers" so it helped put everyone on a more even "technique" plain. Anyone one of them going all out would have easily disqualified them or wrecked the tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:22 pm

Toriyama said he doesn't need to transform to use the power, which implies that he has the power to begin with.
He said he doesn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God because he's absorbed that power which is true. But that doesn't mean he is as strong in base as SSJG. Like I said Whis already implied that turning Super Saiyan would still make them stronger.

This Tournament has shown that it still makes them 50x stronger. SSJ Goku is obviously not 50x stronger than SSJG.
Sorry, wrong scene.
Oh I see what you mean, I'll have to try find that scene later.
He's not naturally stronger, they're almost the same person. Final Form Frost would have to be a FAR FAR FAR bigger prodigy than Frieza, who is the biggest prodigy we've met by far.
Of course they're not the same, that's like saying Gohan and Tarble are the same. Frieza was so monstrously strong due to being a mutant, he was naturally stronger than King Cold. It'd just mean that Frost is naturally stronger than Frieza because his mutation was superior.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:25 pm

Chiki wrote:He's not naturally stronger, they're almost the same person. Final Form Frost would have to be a FAR FAR FAR bigger prodigy than Frieza, who is the biggest prodigy we've met by far. Final Form Frost is above RoF Final Form Frieza without training a day in his life, while Final Form Frieza trained for 4 months. That doesn't make any sense, especially considering the fact that Frost is Frieza's equivalent counterpart, so they are around equally talented. It makes no sense for them to have such different prodigious talents when they are counterparts.
Being his mirror from a different universe doesn't mean their power/potential would have to be the same. Just look at Cabba.
Do you think that is logical? I certainly don't.
You've already admitted that he's way beyond Namek saga Freeza, so how is Frost being above non-Golden Freeza really an issue? In the end, he'd still be weaker than Freeza. One could just say all of the battles he fought in brought him above the level Final Form Freeza showed in RoF.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:31 pm

Changing a bit topic, It is just me or Besides bog beerus vs goku battle and champa vs beerus literally nothing come close to dbz fight from end of buu arc like ssj vegito vs buuhan, ultimate gohan vs buutenks. I mean these battles were shown to incredible destructive and powerfull.

Besides Hit, it literally lack this suspense effect...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:37 pm

ssbgoku wrote:Changing a bit topic, It is just me or Besides bog beerus vs goku battle and champa vs beerus literally nothing come close to dbz fight from end of buu arc like ssj vegito vs buuhan, ultimate gohan vs buutenks. I mean these battles were shown to incredible destructive and powerfull.

Besides Hit, it literally lack this suspense effect...
Idk, vegeta charging the final flash engulfed the entire planet, and this planet is much bigger than earth, then ssj cabe punching vegeta in the forehead shook the entire planet.

Plus, vegeta punching frost so hard the dome broke and piccolo's special beam cannon breaking through it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:38 pm

But if two bases theory is true, why didn't Goku just turn on that God power instead of going Super Saiyan, since that would be much higher? I mean, with SSB at least they said it drains stamina (wtf Super?), but there is nothing pointing to it.
Let me explain how I think this works:
Goku has both God ki and normal ki in his body. He is stronger than when he was in BoG, but at the tail end of the God scale (1, compared to Beerus' 10 - which reflects the tree comparison Whis did a while ago). This would put him at a Buuhan/Vegetto level of power (stronger than SSJ3, but not by much compared to the gods). Then his Super Saiyan form multiplies his normal ki, that is no longer the main source of his power, which puts him at a 5 on the God scale (I am going with my own theory here, that the scale works like tiers, not actual numbers, and you have to be 10x more powerful to jump a tier, so 50x 1 - tier 5). Then his Super Saiyan Blue multiplies his God ki, to a point where he can no longer be sensed (since you can have God ki and still be sensed, like Dende) and puts him at a 7/8 on the god scale. He can't just multiply his God ki by himself, without a transformation... that never worked. Maybe with a Kaioken? Combine that with the fact nobody comments anything in either RoF or the tournament, not even Goku himself, that he is using a different "base" form.

Now, let's go back to the RoF arc. I used to think Gohan's Super Saiyan form was used to unlock his full power he had in his ultimate form, but due to recent events I have retracted that and I think he regressed to his Cell Games level (the earliest point he had SSJ, there's no way he's getting weaker than that). That is enough for him to be stronger than Piccolo, if we also assume that Piccolo stayed at around that same level. However, after RoF, Piccolo and Gohan start training again and based on Gohan's hair (I know, strong freaking argument :lol: ) Gohan achieved his Ultimate powers back. Piccolo was still dominating that sparring, so he finally managed to get a boost in his powers, since he finally had a powerful partner (we know from the Cell saga training together with someone is better than by yourself), so Piccolo is now at SSJ3 levels (close to base Goku in the U6 arc). Golden Freeza would be like a 7.5 - 8 on the scale, while his 4th Form would be around an 1, maybe 0,5.

Frost's Final Form is stronger than a 1, therefore stronger than Piccolo, but nowhere near the 5 SSJ Goku would be. I would say a 3 at best, but after getting a beating from Goku, he falls back 1,5, stronger than Piccolo, but not so much that the green man can't win if he fights smart (like he did in the anime), but there's no way he could if he doesn't, like in the manga (remeber, 0,5 on this scale is 5x, and in the Saiyan Saga the Makankosappo was about 3x higher than Piccolo's base. With a little more charging it can surpass Frost).

The only problematic one from here on out would be Magetta, since he was giving a hell of a hard time to Vegeta, but I guess you can put that on the fact that Vegeta was only in his Super Saiyan form, which wouldn't be as durable as Super Saiyan Blue, and therefore could still be hurt by magma. Combine that with the fact he was probably not fighting at his best, being constrained by the barrier and exhausted due to the heat and I guess it makes sense.

Cabba then being Super Saiyan 3 tier in his base is not so unbelievable anymore, since he is not in the league of the gods. And not even his Super Saiyan form woud be either, since it was weaker than a tired Super Saiyan Vegeta. I guess a 2 on the scale is enough for him.

Botamo is a non-factor since he surely is not even in the SSJ3 league, since Goku was toying with the guy and had 0 problems against him even with his ability (and not just due to tournament rules).

Then the only problem left is Hit fighting Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue, but Goku in base. Well, Hit is an assassin and we know for a fact he is only targeting the vital points. Vegeta didn't know of Hit's special ability so he was at a disadvantage from the start, compared to Goku who knew from the beginning what he should look for. Also, the only explanation needed for that is that Hit is suppressing his power and since we know he can do that, Goku's 1 base form was able to hurt Hit, because Hit was not fighting at a 7 level power, but only at a 1. Next episode should shed more light on the matter.

If this is true, then Buu would still be stronger than Botamo, Cabbe, would have no problem against Magetta and be strong enough to put up with Frost in even his Assault Form and due to his abilities could have stalemated at least even Final Form Frost, explaining why he was such a loss for the team. (How cool his fights could have been...)

This works well without the need of two base theory. The only thing it discredits is the scale, but not entirely, since I've correlated it with the tree comparison, which was stated regarding Goku and Vegeta's base forms, since in the same conversation (I think?) the Oracle Fish says that they could just turn Super Saiyan. If it contradicts anything but the Toriyama numbers, please feel free to point out any holes, but I really don't think it does, especially since I don't think Toriyama ever intended for them to be used as literal numbers that you can calculate and say how strong one must have to become to surpass the other, but more akin to what I suggest, literal numbers to imply huge differences between the two. And since the 50x = 5 works so well (God Goku was a 6, then his power dropped to a 5 in Super Saiyan), I went with one tier = 10x.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:41 pm

Actually ssj vegeta cut through the magma easily. So i guess he just didnt want to risk it covering his whole body.

Plus mageta is incredibly durable.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:19 pm

Maybe it's just me but I don't even see the need for SSJ Goku and Vegeta to be a 1 in the god scale.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:24 pm

buutenks wrote:
ssbgoku wrote:Changing a bit topic, It is just me or Besides bog beerus vs goku battle and champa vs beerus literally nothing come close to dbz fight from end of buu arc like ssj vegito vs buuhan, ultimate gohan vs buutenks. I mean these battles were shown to incredible destructive and powerfull.

Besides Hit, it literally lack this suspense effect...
Idk, vegeta charging the final flash engulfed the entire planet, and this planet is much bigger than earth, then ssj cabe punching vegeta in the forehead shook the entire planet.

Plus, vegeta punching frost so hard the dome broke and piccolo's special beam cannon breaking through it.
The problem is we don't know if we can take these feats seriously as really strong or not.
We don't know if SSJ Cabba was God Tier level or if it was just over dramatic. As seeing literal Gods do batter it's kinda hard to be thrilled by anything the comes after that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:37 pm

He said he doesn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God because he's absorbed that power which is true. But that doesn't mean he is as strong in base as SSJG. Like I said Whis already implied that turning Super Saiyan would still make them stronger.

This Tournament has shown that it still makes them 50x stronger. SSJ Goku is obviously not 50x stronger than SSJG.
I think he's a only bit weaker in Base (Beerus's quote saying that his power went down a bit but not much). Given that Toriyama said he can call upon the power of SSG, saying he is SSJ3 level in Base is false since that would be too weak to be the power of SSG, so I am not considering that theory at all.
Being his mirror from a different universe doesn't mean their power/potential would have to be the same. Just look at Cabba.
Cabba does not have a counterpart that we know of.
You've already admitted that he's way beyond Namek saga Freeza, so how is Frost being above non-Golden Freeza really an issue? In the end, he'd still be weaker than Freeza. One could just say all of the battles he fought in brought him above the level Final Form Freeza showed in RoF.
I didn't say "way beyond." If Frost is SPC level that isn't much, considering how talented both Frieza and Frost are.

This debate is pointless since Goku told Frost to train, meaning he was weak compared to Frieza. He wouldn't have told him to train if Frost was RoF Frieza level.

Also, we know for a fact that Frost is SPC level or also and not above RoF Final Form Frieza, because Piccolo did well against Final Form Frost and Piccolo did not get a ridiculous power boost to god tier.

If you say that Final Form Frost > RoF Final Form Frieza, then you also have to admit that Piccolo > Base Goku w/ SSG power. That is false. Therefore, RoF Final Form Frieza > Final Form Frost.

RoF Frieza > Frost > Namek Frieza.
But if two bases theory is true, why didn't Goku just turn on that God power instead of going Super Saiyan
Because it would be too easy.
This would put him at a Buuhan/Vegetto level of power (stronger than SSJ3, but not by much compared to the gods).
[/quote][/quote]

Toriyama said he has access to all (or most as Beerus says) of his SSG power in base, so this is false.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:44 pm

Where does it say base?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:49 pm

So what would it take for this debate to end? What kind of statement would suffice to all? Or feat.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:52 pm

buutenks wrote:So what would it take for this debate to end? What kind of statement would suffice to all? Or feat.
The only thing I can think off is Cabbe fighting Beerus/Champa and putting up a fight, or a statement calling Frost even stronger than Freeza was before turning Golden.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:02 pm

Draconic wrote:Where does it say base?
Well, I've already pasted the quote like 100 times already. But it was before RoF he said that, so yeah, the only alternatives are Base or regular SS, and Base Goku was doing way better against Beerus than SSJ3, so Base.

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