Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

So what would it take for this debate to end? What kind of statement would suffice to all? Or feat.

The only thing I can think off is Cabbe fighting Beerus/Champa and putting up a fight, or a statement calling Frost even stronger than Freeza was before turning Golden.

Or Goku or Vegeta commenting that when they turned SSJB in tournament, it was the first time they used Goldy ki since fighting Golden Freeza.

[Draconic]

Where does it say base?

Well, I've already pasted the quote like 100 times already. But it was before RoF he said that, so yeah, the only alternatives are Base or regular SS, and Base Goku was doing way better against Beerus than SSJ3, so Base.

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.

This is the quote. Nowhere does it say base. However, just like you said, regular SSJ is a an alternative, which was the one used in Super, which we are debating. So what do we do about that? Also, of course he isn't going to transform into SSG anymore... he would have to do the ritual each time.

[ZombieVito]

So what would it take for this debate to end? What kind of statement would suffice to all? Or feat.

Goku to have a white aura while fighting Hit in the manga version.

That's the only way the theory will get proven now.

[Chiki]

Where does it say base?

Well, I've already pasted the quote like 100 times already. But it was before RoF he said that, so yeah, the only alternatives are Base or regular SS, and Base Goku was doing way better against Beerus than SSJ3, so Base.

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.

This is the quote. Nowhere does it say base. However, just like you said, regular SSJ is a an alternative, which was the one used in Super, which we are debating. So what do we do about that? Also, of course he isn't going to transform into SSG anymore... he would have to do the ritual each time.

Doesn't matter to my view. Base and regular SS have a relatively small difference in power since BoG, seeing as how well Base Goku did against Beerus. This doesn't disprove the two bases theory at all.

Btw, do you at least accept that the two bases theory is stronger than when you originally posted rejecting it? It's the only view which solves every problem involving power levels. The only problem with it is that there are no statements supporting it, but neither does any other theory.

[Draconic]

Doesn't matter to my view. Base and regular SS have a relatively small difference in power since BoG, seeing as how well Base Goku did against Beerus. This doesn't disprove the two bases theory at all.

Btw, do you at least accept that the two bases theory is stronger than when you originally posted rejecting it? It's the only view which solves every problem involving power levels. The only problem with it is that there are no statements supporting it, but neither does any other theory.

What do you mean by that?

Also, no. I think my theory is supported as well, since I detailed it, gave examples of power scalling backed up by actual feats and statements from the show, unlike two base theory. Also, the difference between Base and SSJ is pretty big, still, since when the Oracle Fish tells Whis Goku and Vegeta could just go Super Saiyan to put up with his training, Whis replies that they understand that it's more effective not to do that. He doesn't say that it wouldn't do much of a difference.

Edit: Actual quote.

Spoiler:

Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

[Chiki]

Doesn't matter to my view. Base and regular SS have a relatively small difference in power since BoG, seeing as how well Base Goku did against Beerus. This doesn't disprove the two bases theory at all.

Btw, do you at least accept that the two bases theory is stronger than when you originally posted rejecting it? It's the only view which solves every problem involving power levels. The only problem with it is that there are no statements supporting it, but neither does any other theory.

What do you mean by that?

Also, no. I think my theory is supported as well, since I detailed it, gave examples of power scalling backed up by actual feats and statements from the show, unlike two base theory. Also, the difference between Base and SSJ is pretty big, still, since when the Oracle Fish tells Whis Goku and Vegeta could just go Super Saiyan to put up with his training, Whis replies that they understand that it's more effective not to do that. He doesn't say that it wouldn't do much of a difference.

If he can draw all of his SSG power in regular SS as opposed to Base, that is still fine for my view, because Base Goku can still access a big chunk of SSG power that puts him above everyone else except Hit anyway.

The two base theory has a million power scaling examples backing it up, such as how unrealistic it is for Piccolo to get a power boost to above Base SSG Goku, Buu being one of the strongest fighters in either team despite never training, how Base Goku could do well against suppressed Hit (other views must claim that Base Cabba could do just as well against Hit which makes no sense).

Goku and Vegeta were in a life and death situation, they needed all the help they could get, Super Saiyan included.

[Draconic]

Doesn't matter to my view. Base and regular SS have a relatively small difference in power since BoG, seeing as how well Base Goku did against Beerus. This doesn't disprove the two bases theory at all.

Btw, do you at least accept that the two bases theory is stronger than when you originally posted rejecting it? It's the only view which solves every problem involving power levels. The only problem with it is that there are no statements supporting it, but neither does any other theory.

What do you mean by that?

Also, no. I think my theory is supported as well, since I detailed it, gave examples of power scalling backed up by actual feats and statements from the show, unlike two base theory. Also, the difference between Base and SSJ is pretty big, still, since when the Oracle Fish tells Whis Goku and Vegeta could just go Super Saiyan to put up with his training, Whis replies that they understand that it's more effective not to do that. He doesn't say that it wouldn't do much of a difference.

If he can draw all of his SSG power in regular SS as opposed to Base, that is still fine for my view, because Base Goku can still access a big chunk of SSG power that puts him above everyone else except Hit anyway.

The two base theory has a million power scaling examples backing it up, such as how unrealistic it is for Piccolo to get a power boost to above Base SSG Goku, Buu being one of the strongest fighters in either team despite never training, how Base Goku could do well against suppressed Hit (other views must claim that Base Cabba could do just as well against Hit which makes no sense).

Goku and Vegeta were in a life and death situation, they needed all the help they could get, Super Saiyan included.

It doesn't change the fact SSJ is a big power up over base and if SSJ is the one equal to SSG (which is the one Beerus comments on when Goku loses the God form), then there is no way base Goku, even with God ki is equal to SSJ. I think a 400x increase, equal to SSJ3 is pretty big for a god-powerup, since before the battle with Beerus Goku was not even on Freeza's level.

[Chiki]

Since BoG, we have proof that SS is no longer a big power up over base. SSG Base Goku gives 70% Beerus a very good fight, far better than SS3. If he got a standard 50x boost again, then he would have owned both Beerus and Whis like they were nothing. This is false. Even SSB is not a big boost anymore.

[Khin]

So what would it take for this debate to end? What kind of statement would suffice to all? Or feat.

At this point.It's almost impossible.Having Goku and Vegeta going regular SSj again in one of the biggest mistakes they made.Ever since it was confirmed that Goku used regular SSj against Frost,i already knew the power scaling have a high chance to mess up.It got even worst when Cabba turned SSj.

[Noah]

So, we reach the conclusion that all the fighters in U6 besides Hit are fodders compared to Boo Arc power levels?

Goku and Vegeta were supressed as shit while fighting most of them, right? Two Bases is a thing and Piccolo is not Boo-tenks level?

Lol you're about to start a war all over again. That basically the 4 things that are in contention right now. Which is why this thread is so hard to follow.

Oh god, sorry I didn't know about that, I'd apologize, but anyway Super battle powers are messed up, damn...

No no, there's one base Goku and Vegeta who is SSJ3 tier+ and not close to God tier. As a result Hit is the only U6 fighter who is God tier and the others aren't close.

Though they should still be comparable to Buu arc level. Magetta and SSJ Cabba are probably at the high end of the Buu arc level.

So Base Goku/Vegeta is not strong as Vegetto then?

[Draconic]

You know, I've just provided a quote by Whis, THE master, confirming Super Saiyan is at least a considerable boost. Please back up your claims with any evidence, because I am really getting tired of you just pretty much going : "nope. It's actually this" without backing it up with anything.

[Bullza]

I think he's a only bit weaker in Base (Beerus's quote saying that his power went down a bit but not much).

He was when he fought Beerus because he didn't even notice he'd dropped out of SSJG form and lost power but he hasn't been that strong ever since then.

Given that Toriyama said he can call upon the power of SSG

Well also bare in mind that this interview was done before Resurrection F was a thing. Before SSJB was introduced before Vegeta became a God. Things have probably been changed now as Super suggests.

There's no two base theory and that's a definite at the same time Cabba, Magetta, Frost , Piccolo are also not God tier even though they are on par or stronger than base Goku.

Base Goku being stronger than SSJ3 and weaker than SSJG is the only thing that makes sense. It's not really even a theory, it's made clear that it's the case.

[Chiki]

You know, I've just provided a quote by Whis, THE master, confirming Super Saiyan is at least a considerable boost. Please back up your claims with any evidence, because I am really getting tired of you just pretty much going : "nope. It's actually this" without backing it up with anything.

I'm giving you a basic logical reason. If SS is a 50x boost then Base SSG Goku would be a 300 on a 0-15 scale, twenty times as powerful as Whis. How is that not evidence?

He was when he fought Beerus because he didn't even notice he'd dropped out of SSJG form and lost power but he hasn't been that strong ever since then.

Well also bare in mind that this interview was done before Resurrection F was a thing. Before SSJB was introduced before Vegeta became a God. Things have probably been changed now as Super suggests.

There's no two base theory and that's a definite at the same time Cabba, Magetta, Frost , Piccolo are also not God tier even though they are on par or stronger than base Goku.

Base Goku being stronger than SSJ3 and weaker than SSJG is the only thing that makes sense. It's not really even a theory, it's made clear that it's the case.

Ok, it's very weird to say that he lost power when Toriyama explicitly states that he can access SSG power at any time, meaning he didn't lose power!

I'm even willing to consider theories in which everyone in U6 is god tier, and so is Piccolo, but I cannot consider a theory which Toriyama himself contradicts, so I have to say that it is very arrogant to say that your view overrides Toriyama's own thoughts.

Anyway, I think it's best to wait and see what the manga and anime come up with. The video games have already 100% confirmed the two-base theory.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm starting to think that Toei really did retcon Goku's & Vegeta's forms, because Toriyama had made things a little complicated in his movie continuity (taking into account the movies & their related promotional stuff [DBZ: Dokkan Battle, Dragon Ball Heroes, and DBZ: Resurrection "F" manga adaptation]).

In DBZ: Battle of Gods, Goku's forms worked like this after he absorbed the power of SSG:

• Regular form -> Regular form with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan
  • or
  Regular form -> Regular form with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan God

His regular form with SSG power was stated & shown to be insignificantly weaker than SSG, and his SS form was also on the same level, meaning that it no longer gave the old x50 boost.

Then DBZ: Resurrection "F" comes, and Goku's regular form has surpassed the level he was as a Super Saiyan God back when he fought Beerus. Now his transformations work like this:

• Regular form -> Regular form with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan Blue

So far, the manga adaptation of Dragon Ball Super has only showed Goku using his regular & Super Saiyan forms. Unlike in the anime, Frost is not only implied to be weaker than Freeza was after he trained, but it is also implied that he hasn't trained like Freeza did. So, we'll have to wait & see the next fights (specifically the Cabba & Hit fights), but the transformations could now work like this:

• Regular form -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan Blue
  • or
  Regular form -> Regular form with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan Blue

If we include all the forms he is capable of, we have this:

• Regular form -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 [abandoned]
• Regular form -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan Blue
• Regular form -> Regular form with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan God [abandoned]
• Regular form -> Regular form with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan [may not even exist anymore, probably replaced by SSB]
• Regular form -> Regular form with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan Blue

On the other hand, the anime changed things. After Goku lost SSG & absorbed its power, he reverted back to regular SS instead of his regular form, like in the movie. He also never transformed into a Super Saiyan God on his own, something that he was shown to be capable of in the movie. Furthermore, he doesn't have the same feats in his regular form as in the movie, nor any statement or even implication that would place him in the same level as SSG like in the movie & related promotional stuff. There is also no indication that he has 2 different states in his regular form, while he is not only shown to transform into regular Super Saiyan, he also gets the regular x50 boost. There is also no indication that he got any weaker after his fight with Beerus, he is actually stated to have grown stronger than SSG through his fight with Beerus, and he became even stronger after training with Whis, so he definitely didn't lose any SSG power. As we have seen in the tournament, his transformations are these:

• Regular form -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan Blue

There is only a single line of transformations instead of multiple lines. SS2 & SS3 are apparently replaced by SSB instead of being abandoned, Goku can't turn into a SSG on his own, while his regular SS form is as strong as SSG, and there are no longer 2 regular forms. They made things much more simple like this. After all, Toei's goal is to make a show that will be understandable & can be enjoyed by kids.
But the negative thing about this is that by doing that, they made Piccolo, Gohan, and all of the U6 fighter crazy strong for no reason, while this was probably not Toriyama's intention. I guess we'll have to wait & see how the manga will do things, which is probably closer to Toriyama's Story Draft.

Anyway, he are my numbers of the god level fighters in the Super anime, going by Toriyama's 6-10-15 scale:

Spoiler:

Super Saiyan God Son Goku - 6

• Regular form - 0.12
  • Super Saiyan - 6*

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta - 0.8
Hakaishin Beerus - 10
Whis - 15

*Goku became stronger through his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

Spoiler:

Son Goku - 0.12*

• Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

Vegeta - 0.12

• Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

Freeza - 0.11

• Golden Freeza - 7.8

*Goku is stronger than he was after his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

Spoiler:

Son Goku - 0.13

• Super Saiyan - 6.5
  Super Saiyan Blue - 8.13

Vegeta - 0.13

• Super Saiyan - 6.5
  Super Saiyan Blue - 8.13

Piccolo - 1.2
Son Gohan - 1.3

Botamo - 0.05
Frost - 0.07

• Assault Form - 0.14
  Final Form - 3.3

Magetta - 0.09

• Powered-up - 6.6

Cabba - 0.1

• Super Saiyan - 5

Hit - ?

Hakaishin Champa - 9.8
Vados - 15.6

[Bullza]

Ok, it's very weird to say that he lost power when Toriyama explicitly states that he can access SSG power at any time, meaning he didn't lose power!

Well again this depends on if Toriyama was looking forward. In the BoG movie Goku did actually turn back into a SSJG to stop Beerus' attack. That never happened in Super.

In the movie Goku fought Beerus in Base which didn't happen in Super. Base Goku showed up in that for seconds.

If he could access that power at any time then King Kai's comment about how he'd learned to become a God again after he turned SSJB is really out of place because that makes it sound like he had the power, he kinda lost the power and the trained to bring it out on his own.

I cannot consider a theory which Toriyama himself contradicts, so I have to say that it is very arrogant to say that your view overrides Toriyama's own thoughts.

Possibly an out dated explanation which changed moving forward that you could be mistrepreted anyway.

SSJB is say an 8. He is at least 8x stronger than SSJ. So SSJ is at most a 1. Base is 50x weaker so is a 0.02 at most.

[Chiki]

he doesn't have the same feats in his regular form as in the movie

1. He has the most impressive feat of all in base, even more impressive than anything in the movies: Base Goku and Vegeta took a full power (Goku said Beerus wasn't holding back while asleep) ki blast from Beerus while he was sleeping, in Episode 18.

How do you explain that? A weak Goku like the one you recently started defending would have been burned to dust by that hit. Bullza hasn't explained that, he just ignored it when I brought it up to him. What about you?

2. Goku said Base Vegeta's ki had a completely different quality to it after training with Whis for 6 months. You said BoG Base Goku = RoF Base Goku, so how is that possible?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I didn't say "way beyond." If Frost is SPC level that isn't much, considering how talented both Frieza and Frost are.

Super Perfect Cell level is way beyond Namek Freeza. It isn't even close.

This debate is pointless since Goku told Frost to train, meaning he was weak compared to Frieza. He wouldn't have told him to train if Frost was RoF Frieza level.

No, it isn't. That's you assuming your interpretation of what Goku said is the only meaning when it isn't. If Goku has Golden Freeza (the most logical assumption) in mind, then it's pretty clear that's the Freeza he'd have in mind when thinking of what Frost could reach through training. This was a Goku that was a lot stronger than he was when he fought Freeza, so it in no way needs to mean he's weaker than Freeza.

Also, we know for a fact that Frost is SPC level or also and not above RoF Final Form Frieza, because Piccolo did well against Final Form Frost and Piccolo did not get a ridiculous power boost to god tier.

Piccolo spent most of the match dodging a depleted Frost. It doesn't really imply anything. We know who's the actual stronger of the two and it isn't Piccolo.

If you say that Final Form Frost > RoF Final Form Frieza, then you also have to admit that Piccolo > Base Goku w/ SSG power. That is false. Therefore, RoF Final Form Frieza > Final Form Frost.

Assault Frost was shown to have an advantage over Goku and his Final Form is above his Assault form. I don't have to admit anything because we're never told that Piccolo is as strong as Frost or anything like that. All we know is his attack would've been enough to defeat a depleted Frost. There's room for Piccolo to dodge Frost and still be weaker than Base Goku.

RoF Frieza > Frost > Namek Frieza.

More like Golden Freeza>Frost>Base Goku=RoF Final Form Freeza>Namek Freeza

This is shown and requires no theory.

[Chiki]

More like Golden Freeza>Frost>Base Goku=RoF Final Form Freeza>Namek Freeza

This is shown and requires no theory.

Ok, I definitely like this view a lot more than the whole idea of Toriyama retconning himself and Base Goku not improving at all after getting SSG power.

It's only shown if you assume that Goku was trying his best in base, though (or that the two bases theory is false). Do you have any other proof that the two bases theory is false?

Super Perfect Cell level is way beyond Namek Freeza. It isn't even close.

When you compare the gods to the mortals like Namek Frieza and Cell, it is very close. For example, SSJ to SSJ2 is a x2 boost, which was huge in the Cell arc. But 10% Beerus is >>>>>>>> SSJ2 Rageta, and SSG Goku can fight well against 70% Beerus. We're dealing with boosts the size of SSJ4 here, like x4000 or x5000 on base, instead of x2. I could even give you my detailed calculations if you're interested.

Piccolo spent most of the match dodging a depleted Frost. It doesn't really imply anything. We know who's the actual stronger of the two and it isn't Piccolo.

He still did very well against him, though.

Assault Frost was shown to have an advantage over Goku and his Final Form is above his Assault form. I don't have to admit anything because we're never told that Piccolo is as strong as Frost or anything like that. All we know is his attack would've been enough to defeat a depleted Frost. There's room for Piccolo to dodge Frost and still be weaker than Base Goku.

Even if he's a little weaker than Base SSG Goku according to you, he still got an insane power boost. How do you explain Piccolo's power boost?

[Draconic]

Using the God scale as literal power levels is so goddamn stupid and just shows that people have no clue how Toriyama actually thinks.
Beerus' blast was not a full powered blast. Goku said Beerus doesn't hold back when he is sleeping, as in, doesn't refrain himself from destroying stuff randomly, not going 100%.

[Chiki]

Using the God scale as literal power levels is so goddamn stupid and just shows that people have no clue how Toriyama actually thinks.
Beerus' blast was not a full powered blast. Goku said Beerus doesn't hold back when he is sleeping, as in, doesn't refrain himself from destroying stuff randomly, not going 100%.

Toriyama himself said the god scale should be used as literal power levels.

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?
I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

Strength = power level. I think you and Bullza are going too far with rejecting everything Toriyama says. There's little reason to believe that he retconned himself multiple times, and arguments that rely on retcons are very weak.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod

A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director, or producer.

Toriyama IS the ultimate authority on everything DB.