Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

How do you explain that? A weak Goku like the one you recently started defending would have been burned to dust by that hit. Bullza hasn't explained that, he just ignored it when I brought it up to him. What about you?

I didn't ignore anything, I told you I'd have to watch the scene later and I just did. It obviously wasn't that powerful of a blast, especially when compared to his destruction sphere move.

Whis says they "barely survived" it as well. It's also part comic relief.

Meanwhile in the movie a sleepy Beerus fires another Ki blast at Goku and he says that if it had hit them they'd have been dead.

They're not weak, the move may well have killed SSJ3 Goku but Base Goku is stronger than that to an unknown extent.

[Draconic]

Then I guess SSG is stronger than SSB because Red is a stronger color than blue, using you logic. If you really think that Toriyama wanted to imply with the God scale that Beerus was less than 2x stronger than Goku then you really don't have very good comprehension skills.

[TheMikado]

Alright guys, please don't get this thread locked. I really like this discussion.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's only shown if you assume that Goku was trying his best in base, though (or that the two bases theory is false). Do you have any other proof that the two bases theory is false?

Goku turned Super Saiyan after fighting in Base. I think that alone tells us we saw him at his best in Base form. Beers knows how strong they can be in Base, but only yells at Goku for not using his full-power (Super Saiyan Blue) against Frost. I think this at least shows that Goku used all of his power in every other form besides Super Saiyan Blue. That was the only thing being held-back. Not using Super Saiyan Blue for stamina issues or because it's unnecessary makes sense. Why would he not use all of his power in Base when there's no drawbacks to doing so?

When you compare the gods to the mortals like Namek Frieza and Cell, it is very close. For example, SSJ to SSJ2 is a x2 boost, which was huge in the Cell arc. But 10% Beerus is >>>>>>>> SSJ2 Rageta, and SSG Goku can fight well against 70% Beerus. We're dealing with boosts the size of SSJ4 here, like x4000 or x5000 on base, instead of x2. I could even give you my detailed calculations if you're interested.

When you put it that way, I agree that SPC and Freeza are close. I just meant it was huge under normal circumstances without thinking of the Godly realm of power.

He still did very well against him, though.

But that could mean anything. He demonstrated enough skill to maneuver around Frost's attacks as well as block them while charging his attack. It's not like he really landed any hits or did anything special. At the most, we can see that his Makankousappou was far beyond his limits. Doing well in this instance says more about Piccolo's IQ as a fighter rather than any specific level he's at.

Even if he's a little weaker than Base SSG Goku according to you, he still got an insane power boost. How do you explain Piccolo's power boost?

I don't think Piccolo is close to Base Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

Do you have any other proof that the two bases theory is false?

Take this is an advice. A theory is not true if none can prove it false. A theory can be acceptable if you back it up with enough evidence. From what I've read from your posts recently, you think this theory is true because you assume some tidbit or another from this Arc can't be explained if not by Goku having two different bases. I don't have any problem if you think the theory is plausible, people have their sentiments and that's totally right. But this is definetely not the only way to explain apparent gaps in stories.

I loved Cipher's post yesterday. Not only because it translates my personal view, but how he does it. Simple, consistent and humble. Never knew about him in this field, I'm looking forward to see more posts like that.

Alright guys, please don't get this thread locked. I really like this discussion.

Don't worry. If people here listen to the moderation team, we will definetely be allowed to have a fun discussion. The way it is now is unnacceptable.

[TheMikado]

^ what totally breaks Ciphers theory is that he say Frost Final for and Frieza are about even. Which is not the case base on Goku goin SSJ. If Goku could have finished Frost in base he would have and not wasted the energy. If the multiplier still applies then Frist could potentially be 5000% stronger than we would expect Piccolo to be even at SSJ3 levels.

The mathematics does not add up unless you start retconned everything from Z and even just a few episodes ago in Super.

[Hugo Boss]

Okay, I will go back on my word a bit. I may disagree with that part without disregarding the rest of the post. When it comes to Frost~Freeza relationship, my personal view is very close to Super Saiyan Turlast x4's. Even so, I don't think Piccolo requires a huge boost in strength to be able to handle that fight. I more afined with the idea Toei is doing its own playhouse in this tournament. This is the same Arc Base Goku fairs better than SSB Vegeta. And no, I don't think Goku is any stronger than when he started this tournament.

[Chiki]

It obviously wasn't that powerful of a blast, especially when compared to his destruction sphere move.

You can't judge an attack by its looks. Goku remarked that Beerus was stronger when he wasn't holding anything back, wasn't he? I don't see how Goku would have survived that ki blast without SSG power.

Then I guess SSG is stronger than SSB because Red is a stronger color than blue, using you logic. If you really think that Toriyama wanted to imply with the God scale that Beerus was less than 2x stronger than Goku then you really don't have very good comprehension skills.

I never said anything that implies this. All I said was that we have to listen to what Toriyama says and assume that he's not retconning anything, that's all.

Why would he not use all of his power in Base when there's no drawbacks to doing so?

Because he wanted a challenge and didn't just want to OHKO everyone like they were nothing.

When you put it that way, I agree that SPC and Freeza are close. I just meant it was huge under normal circumstances without thinking of the Godly realm of power.

Even then it's probably not that big, since we saw some really massive power increases in the Buu Saga (SSJ3 is 4x SSJ2 iirc) and in the Frieza Saga we had Kaioken x20 and Super Saiyan which is x50.

But that could mean anything. He demonstrated enough skill to maneuver around Frost's attacks as well as block them while charging his attack. It's not like he really landed any hits or did anything special. At the most, we can see that his Makankousappou was far beyond his limits. Doing well in this instance says more about Piccolo's IQ as a fighter rather than any specific level he's at.

Surely Vegeta pre-Zenkai couldn't have done that to Recoome and they had a 50% power difference. Even smaller gaps in power can lead to very one-sided fights. And Frost vs Piccolo was not one-sided. I'm sure that the power difference between Piccolo and FF Frost is smaller than that.

I don't think Piccolo is close to Base Goku.

Ok, but Piccolo still needs an insane power boost to pull off these really amazing feats. Base Goku can take on Final Form Frieza post training, who is way above SSJ3 Gotenks. How did Piccolo get so far so quickly?

From what I've read from your posts recently, you think this theory is true because you assume some tidbit or another from this Arc can't be explained if not by Goku having two different bases. I don't have any problem if you think the theory is plausible, people have their sentiments and that's totally right. But this is definetely not the only way to explain apparent gaps in stories.

I'm pretty sure that it's the only way to explain the facts in an acceptable way, because the alternative views have major problems:

A: Saying that Base Goku is much weaker than SSG leads to retconning Toriyama's own words and rejecting feats that we've already seen.
B: Saying that Base Goku is SSG level without taking the two-bases theory for granted means that Piccolo and maybe Buu got a huge power boost with some magical training.

I find both of these unacceptable, so I can't accept either view. I will admit, however, that I'm much more comfortable with B than I am with A.

[TheMikado]

@ Hugo

Well for the rest of his theory to work Base Goku is equal to SS beyond God which he states in that. That means Piccolo is suddenly able to fight some in Beerus territory without getting finger plucked.

[Chiki]

Oh, btw, here's some calculations to show that SSG > SS4.

First, SS4 Goku gets a 10x boost over SS3, so it's a 50 x 2 x 4 x 10 = x4000 boost over Base.

Next, we know SS2 Raging Vegeta >> SS3 Goku and SS2 Raging Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10%. Let's assume SS2 Rageta is 2x more powerful than SS3 Goku since he did a lot better. 10% Beerus is 1, so let's say Rageta is around 0.6 or so. So SS3 Goku is around 0.3 or so. 10x and you get 3, so SS4 Goku is about a 3. SSG Goku is a 6, so we have a x8000 boost over Base. No matter what numbers you take, SSG Goku should be well above SS4 Goku, even if you don't agree with the exact assumptions.

[TheMikado]

Oh, btw, here's some calculations to show that SSG > SS4.

First, SS4 Goku gets a 10x boost over SS3, so it's a 50 x 2 x 4 x 10 = x4000 boost over Base.

Next, we know SS2 Raging Vegeta >> SS3 Goku and SS2 Raging Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10%. Let's assume SS2 Rageta is 2x more powerful than SS3 Goku since he did a lot better. 10% Beerus is 1, so let's say Rageta is around 0.6 or so. So SS3 Goku is around 0.3 or so. 10x and you get 3, so SS4 Goku is about a 3. SSG Goku is a 6, so we have a x8000 boost over Base. No matter what numbers you take, SSG Goku should be well above SS4 Goku, even if you don't agree with the exact assumptions.

I always have to correct this when I see this.

No x10 over SSJ4 is fan made and not official.
Official we know the Ozaru form grants an x10 boost and SSJ x50.
Meaning x500 which is greater than the x400 of SSJ3.

Now I also believe you get the additional boosts in SSJ4 of the lower forms i.e. If you push SSJ4 you can get the x100 of SSJ2 and the x10 of Oozaur which would give you SSJ4 Full power.
Now I think it's possible, but never done in the show where you could theoritically do SSJ3 and Oozaur which would give you that SSJ3 x10 multiplier but again that's not in my opinion the forms default power level. And x500 is its base with x1000 full power the only one we have seen of the higher tier.

Also Base Goku in Super is around the same strength as Base GT Goku which makes a good case in power levels alone that super could make EOZ and GT canon.

[Bullza]

You can't judge an attack by its looks. Goku remarked that Beerus was stronger when he wasn't holding anything back, wasn't he? I don't see how Goku would have survived that ki blast without SSG power.

It was Vegeta who said he didn't hold back when he was asleep. That was said during the scene where they got hit by the tail/foot.

Later on in another scene Beerus hits them with a Ki blast. In the next scene, Goku mentions being hit with unrestrained Ki. So it might be an unrestrained Ki blast but it ain't his most powerful Ki blast.

He barely survived that blast but wouldn't have survived the sneeze blast.

Oh, btw, here's some calculations to show that SSG > SS4.

I don't know if you're just comparing forms alone or if you're just trying to say SSJG Goku in BoG is stronger than SSJ4 Goku in GT but Base Goku in GT was above SSJ3 level (seemingly like current base Goku). So SSJ4 Goku in GT would be about 400x stronger than SSJ3 Goku in DBZ.

It's even higher in the Shadow Dragons saga when they push him back his limits.

Is SSJB more than 400x stronger than SSJ3 Goku in DBZ? Yes he is.

Edit: Oh wait no, SSJ4 would be 4,000x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. I dunno then actually.

[Hugo Boss]

@ Hugo

Well for the rest of his theory to work Base Goku is equal to SS beyond God which he states in that. That means Piccolo is suddenly able to fight some in Beerus territory without getting finger plucked.

Wait, wait. Does he say that? From what I read, I get he thinks "Beyond God" is just a state in which Base Goku is much stronger than he was in Boo Arc.

Personally, I don't buy this theory in which Base Goku is SSG's level. This is not what Toriyama said. So far, the story implies the opposite, with Whis clearly saying they were nowhere near Gods' level before the training. After the training is complete, you may argue whatever you want. Actually, Goku's absorbing SSG's power doesn't seem as simple as Toriyama claims. In another hand, I don't have any problem with Piccolo being weaker than Base Goku and doing fairly well against a weakened Frost. Boo didn't even fight, so we can only speculate. There, you have two simple explanations to your problem.

By the way, there are spoilers...

Spoiler:

..suggesting even Hit is a pushover to the Gods of Destruction. Mainly, due to Champa threatining to destroy all his team after all losing. So, I think it's very unlikely that any of these characters are even close to SSG. But this is something we still have to see the progress.

[Chiki]

Oh, btw, here's some calculations to show that SSG > SS4.

First, SS4 Goku gets a 10x boost over SS3, so it's a 50 x 2 x 4 x 10 = x4000 boost over Base.

Next, we know SS2 Raging Vegeta >> SS3 Goku and SS2 Raging Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10%. Let's assume SS2 Rageta is 2x more powerful than SS3 Goku since he did a lot better. 10% Beerus is 1, so let's say Rageta is around 0.6 or so. So SS3 Goku is around 0.3 or so. 10x and you get 3, so SS4 Goku is about a 3. SSG Goku is a 6, so we have a x8000 boost over Base. No matter what numbers you take, SSG Goku should be well above SS4 Goku, even if you don't agree with the exact assumptions.

I always have to correct this when I see this.

No x10 over SSJ4 is fan made and not official.
Official we know the Ozaru form grants an x10 boost and SSJ x50.
Meaning x500 which is greater than the x400 of SSJ3.

Now I also believe you get the additional boosts in SSJ4 of the lower forms i.e. If you push SSJ4 you can get the x100 of SSJ2 and the x10 of Oozaur which would give you SSJ4 Full power.
Now I think it's possible, but never done in the show where you could theoritically do SSJ3 and Oozaur which would give you that SSJ3 x10 multiplier but again that's not in my opinion the forms default power level. And x500 is its base with x1000 full power the only one we have seen of the higher tier.

Also Base Goku in Super is around the same strength as Base GT Goku which makes a good case in power levels alone that super could make EOZ and GT canon.

Oh, I recall reading it in the Dragonball wikia a year ago or so but now it's gone with no source. :O I guess you're right.

By the way, there are spoilers...

Doesn't mean anything, we have to see the battle first and how

Spoiler:

Weakened Hit became after the battle, or maybe he stopped caring about dying after losing to Goku. I am very confident that Hit would defeat Beerus or Champa unless they figured out how to counter the Tokitobashi.

[Hugo Boss]

Doesn't mean anything, we have to see the battle first and how.

I'm not forcing anyone to an agreement. Actually, this is the kind of attitude which ruins this thread. People can cling to any particular bit of information they find relevant, if you excuse me. As I already pointed out, my idea is still a work-in-progress.

[apex_pretador]

Btw, Base Goku having SSG power in Base is a fact in Super too. He was able to take a ki blast from sleeping Beerus who was not holding back at all (Goku himself said it). SSJ3 level Base Goku would have been obliterated.

Yamcha took like 10 shots from Cell jr, same for krillin. They must be super vegeta level or they must've been obliterated?
Also , they were non-holding back blasts, but beerus was nowhere near 10% , let alone 100%. He himself said that.
Toriyama himself saying Goku has SSG power in Base + Base Goku taking an uninhibited ki attack from Beerus in Super during training and surviving = Base Goku has access to SSG power.

Toriyama never said they had SSG power in BASE. He just said goku absorbed SSG power and made it his own, which means that he can access it by going SS and powering up hard.
Base goku surviving an unrestrained blast from less than 10% beerus means nothing. Or Yamcha and krillin are as strong as initial perfect cell, or Mr Satan is as strong as Majin vegeta (Because he survived an unrestrained hit from KID BUU)

So either A. U6 fighters are all god tiers is correct or B. Goku and Vegeta have two bases is correct.

Or C - they are buu arc+ levels only.

Given that Buu is considered to be stronger than most U6 fighters with no training and Buu is not a god tier, B is the only possible answer.

Buu is never considered to be stronger than ANY of U6 arc fighters.

[buutenks]

interesting theory but i still think:

beerus>champa>ssjb>golden freeza>hit>vegetto>/=ssj>FF frost>base saiyans>ff freeza>/=assault form frost>piccolo>/=mr buu.

Also, I'm thinking BP wise, not who would win vs who.

IMO, i believe goku and vegeta can only fully tap into the god power once they r ssj blue.

[apex_pretador]

mr buu shouldn't be anywhere near freeza's forms except maybe close to first form. No one bothered to go & wake him up, and they'd have done that if he could've solo'd freeza forms.

[buutenks]

mr buu shouldn't be anywhere near freeza's forms except maybe close to first form. No one bothered to go & wake him up, and they'd have done that if he could've solo'd freeza forms.

Oh i forgot to add buuhan.

ill redo:

beerus>champa>ssjb>golden freeza>hit>vegetto>/=ssj>ff frost>base saiyans>ff freeza>/=assault form frost>buuhan>first form freeza>/=current gohan>/=piccolo>/=mr buu

Again, power wise only, not who would win vs who.

[Chiki]

He just said goku absorbed SSG power and made it his own, which means that he can access it by going SS and powering up hard

Toriyama never stated this explicitly.

I agree that he can access more of it by going SS. However, he can access most of it at Base, given how well (way way better) he did against 70% Beerus. If 5% Beerus was the Beerus who owned SS3 Goku, then that just shows you the gap between SS3 Goku and Base Goku. Base SSG Goku is several times more powerful than SS3 Goku.

Oh, here's some calculations to show Piccolo's potential power boost according to the Base = SSG theory:

If SS3 Goku is a 0.3 on the scale of gods, then SS Goku is a 0.3 / 8 = 0.0375 since SS3 is a x8 power boost over SS. I'm assuming that Piccolo is now equal to SS BoG Goku, due to training since the Cell Games, although that is probably being generous.

Piccolo did really well against a depleted Frost, who might be around 8 or something on the scale of gods at full power. Let's say Piccolo is a 6. Then 6 / 0.0375 = Piccolo got a x160 power boost, or in other words he unlocked a transformation better than SS2 which gives a x100 boost to Base.