Post ROSAT Base Gotenks stronger than Pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks?

[Bullza]

This has been done to death already I bet hasn't it? Well you can't bump old topics so I'm just making a new one.

So I only just latched on to how big an improvement Post ROSAT Gotenks seems to be compared to Pre ROSAT Gotenks.

Now Pre ROSAT Gotenks is supposed to be strong enough to at least test Majin Buu right? Goku tells Buu someone stronger is gonna show up but on the other hand Gohan felt SSJ3 Goku's Ki and Super Buu's Ki but there was no such scene for SSJ1 Gotenks which could imply he was weaker than SSJ3 Goku maybe.

So later on Super Buu shows up, Piccolo acknowledges he's much more powerful, Goten and Trunks see that's he's changed. They go into the ROSAT and they train.

At the end of the training Trunks says

"I think we've improved enough to be even with Buu with regular fusion"

So does that mean Base? SSJ? Anyway they start off in base and Piccolo even says it may succeed butthis is without him knowing that he can also turn Super Saiyan after fusing because he's surprised after when he does it.

Which would imply that Piccolo thinks Base Gotenks could beat Super Buu which is along the lines of Trunks thinking.

Base Gotenks attacks Super Buu and it does nothing and he clearly isn't as strong as Super Buu....but he comments on how it should have levelled him. He also previously got his ass kicked by Majin Buu so he knows how strong he was.

Doesn't this all kind of imply that Base Gotenks Post ROSAT is stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks Pre ROSAT? As far fetched as that might seem to me it kinda looks it a little especially as Piccolo had severe doubts about SSJ Gotenks beating Super Buu before they went into ROSAT but was then confident (briefly) that Base Gotenks could beat Super Buu afterwards.

[ZombieVito]

It was just a gag scene.

Gotenks getting 50 times stronger in less than a week while being limited to 30 minute training sessions and then resting for an hour is just crazy.

[Kaboom]

Gotenks getting 50 times stronger in less than a week while being limited to 30 minute training sessions and then resting for an hour is just crazy.

Beat me to it. I know we're talking about a goofy series where pretty much anything is possible, but even Dragon Ball has its own small amount of in-universe logic at play. Suspension of disbelief has its limits, and as far as I'm concerned Gotenks pulling off something like this would be FAR beyond it.

My preferred explanations are either A) Piccolo's simply overreacting for comedy's sake, or B) Piccolo expects Gotenks to go Super Saiyan, loses hope when they don't and it seems they can't, and then regains it when they do.

[Bullza]

But it's not just Piccolo's comment. There are 3 different lines that imply it.

If Gotenks had fought Majin Buu and got his ass kicked he should know how strong he is. Even if we forget about Super Buu being stronger Trunks says that they've improved enough to be even with Buu, that part wasn't a gag.

He's then willing to fight to him in base form and then he's surprised when he doesn't level him.

On the other hand if Base Gotenks had grown stronger than SSJ Gotenks prior then Base Goten and Trunks shoukd have grown stronger than SSJ Goten and Trunks prior.

Obviously Vegeta is stronger than Trunks regardless. If Trunks had got dozens of times stronger after training, then before training he'd have a tiny fraction of Vegeta's power so he should never have been able to hit him when they were Super Saiyans.

Likewise SSJ Goten was really pushing SSJ Gohan so you'd think Gotenks couldn't have got more than 2-3x strong if they're still weaker than the adults.

So it's odd.

[Desassina]

Perhaps it's a combination of getting stronger and unlocking/using more power, as if SSJ Gotenks Pre-RoSaT was tapping into 50x his battle power, while Base Gotenks got 1.25 times stronger Post-RoSaT, and was using 40x instead (in this example, they matched). It still goes well with Piccolo being hopeful of a bigger transformation, after he witnesses a slightly stronger fighter, but hope is lost, and then regained once he sees them sticking to a base form for long, and transforming afterwards.

[Tectorman]

3 lines that imply it.

One by Gotenks himself, a notorious braggart who may be safely dismissed.

One by Trunks prior, and he's barely any better than Gotenks in this regard.

And Piccolo's comment, the only one I consider legitimate. Which isn't to say I buy that line as an indication of that level of improvement either.

Frieza, even without sensing ki, could tell that Goku was holding back and by how much. When Vegeta fought Perfect Cell, Krillin could tell that Trunks had another transformation available. Master Korin had a fairly accurate sense of just how strong Perfect Cell's full power was, despite it not yet having been shown.

So I consider it possible for characters to sometimes perceive another character's total power, even if that power is hidden away in an unused transformation or other power-up technique. And I consider Piccolo's comment to be an example of this. Without specifically identifying it as such, he perceived Gotenks's unused SSJ2 and SSJ3 power and mistook that as power that Gotenks could use in Base.

[Hugo Boss]

Gotenks getting 50 times stronger in less than a week while being limited to 30 minute training sessions and then resting for an hour is just crazy.

Beat me to it. I know we're talking about a goofy series where pretty much anything is possible, but even Dragon Ball has its own small amount of in-universe logic at play. Suspension of disbelief has its limits, and as far as I'm concerned Gotenks pulling off something like this would be FAR beyond it.

My preferred explanations are either A) Piccolo's simply overreacting for comedy's sake, or B) Piccolo expects Gotenks to go Super Saiyan, loses hope when they don't and it seems they can't, and then regains it when they do.

I prefer A. Personally, I don't think Piccolo was expecting Gotenks to go Super Saiyan after Fusion, due to his apparent surprise when they showed to be capable of pulling that.

[Bullza]

So why would Trunks be exaggerating? That wasn't for comedy when he said it.

You could say he was perhaps being arrogant, though I would be unsure about that. It's strange for two completely different characters to imply the same thing.

Though it still doesn't make any sense for Goten and Trunks to power up that hugely if they aren't THAT far below the adults and are still below the adults after training.

So Gotenks should have got at most 3x as strong but then that doesn't make sense with what was said. So it doesn't fit either way.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Trunks overestimated Base Gotenks. The majority of the power was in Super Saiyan 3. I think Piccolo just got ahead of himself because he was hoping for a miracle.

[Gorou]

It was just a gag scene.

Gotenks getting 50 times stronger in less than a week while being limited to 30 minute training sessions and then resting for an hour is just crazy.

I agree. However Piccolo that, for a moment, belive that Gotenks can win against Buu, has a humoristic purpose

[The Monkey King]

Gotenks getting 50 times stronger in less than a week while being limited to 30 minute training sessions and then resting for an hour is just crazy.

Didn't Freeza get a bajillion times stronger after "Training" for a few months?

[Analytic]

Gotenks getting 50 times stronger in less than a week while being limited to 30 minute training sessions and then resting for an hour is just crazy.

Didn't Freeza get a bajillion times stronger after "Training" for a few months?

Yep. Goku also grew many times stronger in a short span of 3 days just from chasing a cat, and Piccolo also got an insane increase with only 6 days of meditating on Kaio's planet. Ridiculously large increases are not unheard of at all in Dragon Ball.

[miguelnuva1]

The way I have fusion working means if Goten and Trunks went up by 100, Gotenks can go up about 10,000 give or take. So a week with two hybrid saiyans could boost Gotenks 50x. It's also why I think SSJ Gogeta can handle regular Super Buu.

[Bullza]

Isn't it kinda odd that Super Vegito is so much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks? He's over twice as strong.

But Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be that drastically stronger than Goten and Trunks.

[Analytic]

Isn't it kinda odd that Super Vegito is so much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks? He's over twice as strong.

But Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be that drastically stronger than Goten and Trunks.

Because Potara fusion is drastically stronger than Metamoran fusion.

[Bullza]

Isn't it kinda odd that Super Vegito is so much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks? He's over twice as strong.

But Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be that drastically stronger than Goten and Trunks.

Because Potara fusion is drastically stronger than Metamoran fusion.

I thought they just said it was more effective, as in there's no time limit for it.

[apex_pretador]

A. I myself have no problem believing that base gotenks surpassed SS gotenks, as I like to throw the established multipliers out of the window while dealing with gotenks.
B. Every argument can be countered.

• Trunks' statement about base gotenks surpassing buu - He is overestimating himself. Yes, they have improved but not THAT much. Trunks is the same guy who thought he could take on fat buu who was demolishing majin vegeta. And he never sensed super buu, so he doesn't know what it takes.
• Gotenks' comment that buu was faking tanks means nothing because he does nothing except getting pissed off and use weird attacks.
• Piccolo's statement 1 - Improvement on gotenks' part was huge and noticeable, but that doesn't mean that he stands a chance.
• Piccolo's statement 2 - Maybe he stands a chance? Piccolo was being optimistic. He was putting his hopes in the stronger guy (gotenks) that's it. It is just like krillin being really glad about having piccolo, who can barely budge nappa, in the saiyan arc.

[Ash57]

Piccolo was hoping for a miracle but he isn't an idiot, people have to acknowledge that.
Base Gotenks(post) >>> SSj Gotenks(Pre)

[apex_pretador]

Piccolo was hoping for a miracle but he isn't an idiot, people have to acknowledge that.
Base Gotenks(post) >>> SSj Gotenks(Pre)

Piccolo isn't an idiot but he is allowed to be optimistic, isn't he?
And his comment can be attributed to the fact that gotenks was much more powerful than him and he was putting faith in him.

[Ash57]

Piccolo was hoping for a miracle but he isn't an idiot, people have to acknowledge that.
Base Gotenks(post) >>> SSj Gotenks(Pre)

Piccolo isn't an idiot but he is allowed to be optimistic, isn't he?
And his comment can be attributed to the fact that gotenks was much more powerful than him and he was putting faith in him.

"Being optimistic" is when you say something that is possible in the first place and you want it to be true. It is factually established that SSj Gotenks(pre) don't stand a chance against Super Buu(at lookout). if Base Gotenks was even weaker than SSj Gotenks, then it wouldn't be even remotely possible to him to stand some chance against Super Buu.