Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Frost lost 80% of his power from a couple of punches??

[Draconic]

Frost lost 80% of his power from a couple of punches??

He did use a lot of power in the punch that Goku blocked and then got beaten pretty bad. Not to mention in the manga the fight was longer than a couple of punches. It's possible he did lose that much. Though, I guess someone could make an argument he didn't lose too much at all. It's pretty up in the air.

[ssbgoku]

Frost lost 80% of his power from a couple of punches??

Well it may be not look like that and in anime it was short or seems short to some of us if not to most. However I see Frost at the most being 50% against Picoolo.

Final Form Frost is also at the most buutenks tier. and If we put Base goku below ssj3 level and probably even more to ssj2 then frost would be above ssj2 but below ssj3. It could work, it is also fact that I have final form rof frieza weaker then buuhan but stronger then super buu at least.

[Bullza]

Well his power didn't drop enough that Vegeta didn't still need to turn into a Super Saiyan to beat him.

[RandomGuy96]

Well his power didn't drop enough that Vegeta didn't still need to turn into a Super Saiyan to beat him.

Good point. So he still should have been in the same league as base Goku/base Vegeta/Assault Form Frost at the very least. If not much stronger. More evidence for base Goku not being super strong, considering Piccolo's SBC was enough to take out this Frost after about 3 minutes (real time, probably much less in universe) of charging, and Piccolo was still heavily implied to be much weaker than Mr. Buu.

So how much power do you guys think Frost lost after fighting Goku?

Maybe a little over half. Nothing too excessive. E.g.

Assault Form Frost: 10
True Form Frost: 20
-Exhausted: 8-9

Base Goku: 9
Piccolo: 5
-SBC: ~15

Something like that.

[ZombieVito]

So how much power do you guys think Frost lost after fighting Goku?

Maybe a little over half. Nothing too excessive. E.g.

Assault Form Frost: 10
True Form Frost: 20
-Exhausted: 8-9

Base Goku: 9
Piccolo: 5
-SBC: ~15

Something like that.

How strong would you have Boo in that scale?

[RandomGuy96]

So how much power do you guys think Frost lost after fighting Goku?

Maybe a little over half. Nothing too excessive. E.g.

Assault Form Frost: 10
True Form Frost: 20
-Exhausted: 8-9

Base Goku: 9
Piccolo: 5
-SBC: ~15

Something like that.

How strong would you have Boo in that scale?

Mr. Buu would be a 24. For comparison, SS2 Goku from the Buu arc would be a 7.5. As I said I'm working under the assumption that Goku's base form ends up as slightly below Pure Buu by the end of the series, to match up with the Uub epilogue.

I may change that in the future of course. Things are very vague now.

[ZombieVito]

Mr. Buu would be a 24. For comparison, SS2 Goku from the Buu arc would be a 7.5. As I said I'm working under the assumption that Goku's base form ends up as slightly below Pure Buu by the end of the series, to match up with the Uub epilogue.

I may change that in the future of course. Things are very vague now.

I see. I'd bump those numbers a bit. How many years are left until we are into EoZ territory? 4? I don't think Goku can become even 2 times as strong in that time. Granted something might happen in the future but with Toriyama's current stance on them not surpassing Beerus I don't think they will.

[RandomGuy96]

Mr. Buu would be a 24. For comparison, SS2 Goku from the Buu arc would be a 7.5. As I said I'm working under the assumption that Goku's base form ends up as slightly below Pure Buu by the end of the series, to match up with the Uub epilogue.

I may change that in the future of course. Things are very vague now.

I see. I'd bump those numbers a bit. How many years are left until we are into EoZ territory? 4? I don't think Goku can become even 2 times as strong in that time. Granted something might happen in the future but with Toriyama's current stance on them not surpassing Beerus I don't think they will.

I was assuming we had several arcs to go until the end, and maybe a large power-up or two as is Dragon Ball tradition.

But like I said, I'll change it in the future depending on what happens.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Hey, new here! How I see it (going off the 6/10/15 scale, multiplied by 1,000 for sanity):

Beerus: 10,000

Whis: 15,000

Champa: 9,000

Vados: 17,000

Base Goku and Vegeta: 3.2

SS1 Goku and Vegeta: 160

Godly Ki Goku and Vegeta: 160

SSB Goku and Vegeta: 8,000

Piccolo: 45

Mr. Buu: 22

Monaka: 4 in actual Power Levels

Botamo: 0.08 but immune to damage

Frost (1st): 2.8

Frost (Assault): 4.2

Frost (Final): 84

Magetta (100%): 200

Cabba: 3

SS1 Cabba: 150

Hit (suppressed vs Goku): 5

Hit (suppressed vs Vegeta): 1,000

For further context:

100% Freeza: 0.12

Super Perfect Cell: 6.3

Kid Buu: 30

SS1 Vegetto: 250

[Khin]

The powerscaling are quite messy for now,but i wouldn't put Non-Gold Freeza in a measly Mr.Boo tier.Everyone was scared shitless when Freeza arrived,when Gotenks appeared,they didn't show any kind of relief.Assuming they have no idea that Freeza had a gold form.Goten and Trunks didn't perform a desperate fusion attempt when Gohan was getting pwned by Freeza.So they probably realized that they couldn't do anything.

For now...

SSj3 Gotenks ~ First Form Freeza ~~~ Final Form Freeza = Base Goku [ROF Arc] ~= Base Goku [Champa Arc]

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Forgot to include that I think the 'Godly Ki without Super Saiyan 1' thing is about right. Base Goku < SS1 Goku = Goku with Godly Ki < SSG Goku.

[ssbgoku]

The powerscaling are quite messy for now,but i wouldn't put Non-Gold Freeza in a measly Mr.Boo tier.Everyone was scared shitless when Freeza arrived,when Gotenks appeared,they didn't show any kind of relief.Assuming they have no idea that Freeza had a gold form.Goten and Trunks didn't perform a desperate fusion attempt when Gohan was getting pwned by Freeza.So they probably realized that they couldn't do anything.

For now...

SSj3 Gotenks ~ First Form Freeza ~~~ Final Form Freeza = Base Goku [ROF Arc] ~= Base Goku [Champa Arc]

Bold part I disagree First form Freeza is no way close to ssj3 gotenks. Ssj gotenks > First form freeza.

However Final form freeza > ultimate gohan/bog ssj3 goku

[Khin]

Bold part I disagree First form Freeza is no way close to ssj3 gotenks. Ssj gotenks > First form freeza.

However Final form freeza > ultimate gohan/bog ssj3 goku

Then why did the kids never tried to perform a desperate fusion attempt ? Its likely that the kids never knew that Freeza had other forms.

[LowRyder2005]

Bold part I disagree First form Freeza is no way close to ssj3 gotenks. Ssj gotenks > First form freeza.

However Final form freeza > ultimate gohan/bog ssj3 goku

Then why did the kids never tried to perform a desperate fusion attempt ?

Well, they couldn't have tried anyway even if they wanted to. Fusion needs one hour to be performed again.

[Khin]

Well, they couldn't have tried anyway even if they wanted to. Fusion needs one hour to be performed again.

I know.But in the Boo Arc,Trunks and Goten tried to do the same thing because they're worried about Gohan.In ROF,they didn't even bother to try it.

[LowRyder2005]

True enough, but Goten actually tries to step in to help Gohan when the latter is being tortured... so I wouldn't say he wants to totally avoid a fight against Freeza per se if his brother's life is at stake. I think the kids simply had more knowledge than before, and knew that at that point it would have been useless to try to fuse.

I'd add a couple of things of relevance for the Gotenks > First Form Freeza argument:

- We all know people could sense Freeza's ki clearly from outer space back when he was incredibly weaker.
Isn't it fair to assume they could probably sense him back in ROF too? And they still think of three people that can turn things in their favor: Goku, Vegeta and Majin Buu. This should, in theory, put Mr. Buu and some form of Goku and Vegeta at least above First Form Freeza. Gotenks should still be stronger than Buu. I dunno if there's something stating they can't sense Freeza, or that Freeza is concealing his ki (I wouldn't see the reason, though).

- Gotenks talks and acts like he can take on First Form Freeza no prob. Now, this is weakened by the fact that Gotenks is the cockiest Z-fighter around, but I'd say it still amounts to something.
Plus, no one minus Bulma remarks that Gotenks should avoid fighting Freeza. In Bulma's case, not counting that she can't sense ki, it would appear more like a mother worrying for her child than anything else.

In ROF, my idea is that Buu Saga Chou Gohan, SS Gotenks and Buu were perceived as stronger than (at least) First Form Freeza in Toriyama's mind. Hence, the need to nerf or write off all three in one way or another; he wanted to create a framework in which no one could oppose Freeza, to hype Goku's and Vegeta's intervention.

Although, following the same reasoning, you may lean towards SS3 Gotenks >= First Form Freeza > SS Gotenks too.

[Khin]

True enough, but Goten actually tries to step in to help Gohan when the latter is being tortured... so I wouldn't say he wants to totally avoid a fight against Freeza per se if his brother's life is at stake. I think the kids simply had more knowledge than before, and knew that at that point it would have been useless to try to fuse.

I'd add a couple of things of relevance for the Gotenks > First Form Freeza argument:

1. We all know people could sense Freeza's ki clearly from outer space back when he was incredibly weaker.
Isn't it fair to assume they could probably sense him back in ROF too? And they still think of three people that can turn things in their favor: Goku, Vegeta and Majin Buu. This should, in theory, put Mr. Buu and some form of Goku and Vegeta at least above First Form Freeza. Gotenks should still be stronger than Buu. I dunno if there's something stating they can't sense Freeza, or that Freeza is concealing his ki (I wouldn't see the reason, though).

2. Gotenks talks and acts like he can take on First Form Freeza no prob. Now, this is weakened by the fact that Gotenks is the cockiest Z-fighter around, but I'd say it still amounts to something.
Plus, no one minus Bulma remarks that Gotenks should avoid fighting Freeza. In Bulma's case, not counting that she can't sense ki, it would appear more like a mother worrying for her child than anything else.

3. In ROF, my idea is that Buu Saga Chou Gohan, SS Gotenks and Buu were perceived as stronger than (at least) First Form Freeza in Toriyama's mind. Hence, the need to nerf or write off all three in one way or another; he wanted to create a framework in which no one could oppose Freeza, to hype Goku's and Vegeta's intervention.

Gohan told Goten to step out because he have no chance.Now,does Gohan knew about the rule of fusion ? Probably not.But he knew how strong Gotenks is.

- Kuririn told #18 there's nothing to worry about because they have Gohan and Boo was before Freeza's ki was sensed.At that time,Kuririn only knew that Freeza will arrive on earth through Bulma.It was only when Freeza's ship was about to land on earth that everyone can sense his ki.

- Like you said,Gotenks is one of the most cockiest character in the series.He thought he can take on Beerus in base.When Gotenks arrived,No one showed some kind of relief.

- But It would create more hype if 1st Form Freeza will be stronger than U.Gohan and Gotenks.

[LowRyder2005]

True enough, but Goten actually tries to step in to help Gohan when the latter is being tortured... so I wouldn't say he wants to totally avoid a fight against Freeza per se if his brother's life is at stake. I think the kids simply had more knowledge than before, and knew that at that point it would have been useless to try to fuse.

I'd add a couple of things of relevance for the Gotenks > First Form Freeza argument:

1. We all know people could sense Freeza's ki clearly from outer space back when he was incredibly weaker.
Isn't it fair to assume they could probably sense him back in ROF too? And they still think of three people that can turn things in their favor: Goku, Vegeta and Majin Buu. This should, in theory, put Mr. Buu and some form of Goku and Vegeta at least above First Form Freeza. Gotenks should still be stronger than Buu. I dunno if there's something stating they can't sense Freeza, or that Freeza is concealing his ki (I wouldn't see the reason, though).

2. Gotenks talks and acts like he can take on First Form Freeza no prob. Now, this is weakened by the fact that Gotenks is the cockiest Z-fighter around, but I'd say it still amounts to something.
Plus, no one minus Bulma remarks that Gotenks should avoid fighting Freeza. In Bulma's case, not counting that she can't sense ki, it would appear more like a mother worrying for her child than anything else.

3. In ROF, my idea is that Buu Saga Chou Gohan, SS Gotenks and Buu were perceived as stronger than (at least) First Form Freeza in Toriyama's mind. Hence, the need to nerf or write off all three in one way or another; he wanted to create a framework in which no one could oppose Freeza, to hype Goku's and Vegeta's intervention.

Gohan told Goten to step out because he have no chance.Now,does Gohan knew about the rule of fusion ? Probably not.But he knew how strong Gotenks is.

- Kuririn told #18 there's nothing to worry about because they have Gohan and Boo was before Freeza's ki was sensed.At that time,Kuririn only knew that Freeza will arrive on earth through Bulma.It was only when Freeza's ship was about to land on earth that everyone can sense his ki.

- Like you said,Gotenks is one of the most cockiest character in the series.He thought he can take on Beerus in base.When Gotenks arrived,No one showed some kind of relief.

- But It would create more hype if 1st Form Freeza will be stronger than U.Gohan and Gotenks.

It's true we don't know if Gohan is aware of the 1-hour rule. That being said, Gohan is referencing Goten being unable to handle Freeza. If Gotenks wasn't able to face Freeza wouldn't he have said the same when Gotenks was about to attack Freeza head-on?

Second point: I believe you are jumping to the conclusions there. Are we absolutely sure they couldn't sense Freeza's ki? That's because I can only think of evidence or stuff that happened before accounting for the contrary. We know Freeza can't suppress ki by normal means, that's why he created his forms to lower his power. Now, trying to reason with that premise:

* Everyone is immediately aware of his presence when he is resurrected, right?
And the fact that Freeza can't suppress his ki after the training is apparent: needless to say that he still implements a restrained form to contain his power. He would have no need to do so if he could suppress or control his ki accordingly in his natural, unrestrained form (the fourth).
* If people could sense his ki back in the Android Arc, why couldn't they sense him too after he trains and with an even bigger ki?
* So it sounds likely that they can sense Freeza in First Form, simply because we have little to no reason to doubt it. Now... it looks like Krillin and everyone are aware that Goku, Vegeta or Buu or a properly trained Gohan could turn everything in their favor. It stands to reason that they should all be in the same ballpark or higher than First Form Freeza.
* Krillin asks Gohan if he thinks he can beat Freeza, so while Gohan is weaker, First Form Freeza can't be... say, 1000 times stronger than Gohan. Freeza should be strong enough to stomp him in First Form, but "weak" enough to give Krillin the hope Gohan could beat him somehow by going the extra mile.

Last point... well, I think it actually strenghtens my argument: it's the same for the tournament and Beerus' debut, right?
I see no reason to avoid Freeza giving a beating to Gotenks and Mr. Buu to reinforce the point that he's the top dog even in First Form, if he's so fearsome. Usually, when a writer goes to such lenghts with plot devices like these it's because they think they wrote themselves into a corner, so they have to... y'know, maybe send this character away, make this other unavailable and so on.

No, all things considered, I'd say the possibility for SS Gotenks and Mr. Buu being quite a good deal stronger than First Form Freeza is high.

[Khin]

1. It's true we don't know if Gohan is aware of the 1-hour rule. That being said, Gohan is referencing Goten being unable to handle Freeza. If Gotenks wasn't able to face Freeza wouldn't he have said the same when Gotenks was about to attack Freeza head-on?

2. I believe you are jumping to the conclusions there. Are we absolutely sure they couldn't sense Freeza's ki? That's because I can only think of evidence or stuff that happened before for the contrary. We know Freeza can't suppress ki by normal means, that's why he created his forms to lower his power. Now, trying to reason with that premise:

* Everyone is immediately aware of his presence when he is resurrected, right?
And the fact that Freeza can't suppress his ki after the training is apparent: needless to say that he still implements a restrained form to contain his power. He would have no need to do so if he could suppress or control his ki accordingly in his natural, unrestrained form (the fourth).
* If people could sense his ki back in the Android Arc, why couldn't they sense him too after he trains and with an even bigger ki?
* So it sounds likely that they can sense Freeza in First Form, simply because we have little to no reason to doubt it. Now... it looks like Krillin and everyone are aware that Goku, Vegeta or Buu or a properly trained Gohan could turn everything in their favor. It stands to reason that they should all be in the same ballpark or higher than First Form Freeza.
* Krillin asks Gohan if he thinks he can beat Freeza, so while Gohan is weaker, First Form Freeza can't be... say, *1000 times stronger than Gohan. Freeza should be strong enough to own enough in First Form but enough to give Krillin the hope Gohan could beat him somehow by going the extra mile.

1. Gotenks defused few seconds after he said he will take care of Freeza.Gohan should've told Goten and Trunks to fuse against to fight Freeza until Goku/Vegeta arrives.

2. Freeza CAN suppress his ki in his First Form even back in the Freeza Arc.not to mention this is the guy who have his 50% Full Power,70% Full Power etc.In RoF,he trained so much that he even learned how to sense ki.So even if you don't believe,it shouldn't be impossible for him to suppress his ki as well.

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P14.1
Context: as Freeza powers up
Piccolo: “That large ki has become even more absurdly large! Is this ‘Freeza’ finally starting to move?!”

Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P5.4
Freeza: "My battle power is 530,000. But of course, I don't intend to fight you at full power, so you can relax..."

When Freeza's ship was about to arrive on earth,they said "So this ki of the revived Freeza ?" or something like that.Implying,that's the first time they sensed the ki of the revived Freeza.