Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

1. Gotenks defused few seconds after he said he will take care of Freeza.Gohan should've told Goten and Trunks to fuse against to fight Freeza until Goku/Vegeta arrives.

We have already established Gohan may as well be aware of the limit, though.
I've double-checked, to be 100% sure: Goten and Trunks, back in the Buu saga talk openly about the limit with Gohan present. Buutenks specifically mentions to Gohan the window of time and that he had to wait before Goten and Trunks could fuse again. So yeah, if you think Gohan remembers that exchange, Gohan should theoretically know about the Fusion one-hour limit too.

2. Freeza CAN suppress his ki in his First Form even back in the Freeza Arc.not to mention this is the guy who have his 50% Full Power,70% Full Power etc.In RoF,he trained so much that he even learned how to sense ki.So even if you don't believe,it shouldn't be impossible for him to suppress his ki as well.

Okay, I may have actually worded it poorly: we still know Freeza can't suppress his ki in a perfectly feasible fashion because he still uses his restrained forms. It's more like I can't see why he would suppress himself in the first place, even if he could.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Bold part I disagree First form Freeza is no way close to ssj3 gotenks. Ssj gotenks > First form freeza.

However Final form freeza > ultimate gohan/bog ssj3 goku

Then why did the kids never tried to perform a desperate fusion attempt ?

Well, they couldn't have tried anyway even if they wanted to. Fusion needs one hour to be performed again.

Only if they use Super Saiyan 3, which they didn't here. Normally, you can perform Fusion immediately, so the kids could use Fusion whenever they wanted.

[Khin]

Only if they use Super Saiyan 3, which they didn't here. Normally, you can perform Fusion immediately, so the kids could use Fusion whenever they wanted.

I didn't really know this.Where was this stated ?

1. We have already established Gohan may as well be aware of the limit, though.
I've double-checked, to be 100% sure: Goten and Trunks, back in the Buu saga talk openly about the limit with Gohan present. Buutenks specifically mentions to Gohan the window of time and that he had to wait before Goten and Trunks could fuse again. So yeah, if you think Gohan remembers that exchange, Gohan should theoretically know about the Fusion one-hour limit too.

2. Okay, I may have actually worded it poorly: we still know Freeza can't suppress his ki in a perfectly feasible fashion because he still uses his restrained forms. It's more like I can't see why he would suppress himself in the first place, even if he could.

- See DBZGTKOSDH's post.

- Freeza had no reason to be at full power in his First form right off the bat.But like i said,considering he made some improvements like sensing ki,it shouldn't be impossible for him to learn how to suppress his ki to 0 or something.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan told Goten to step out because he have no chance.Now,does Gohan knew about the rule of fusion ? Probably not.But he knew how strong Gotenks is.

- Kuririn told #18 there's nothing to worry about because they have Gohan and Boo was before Freeza's ki was sensed.At that time,Kuririn only knew that Freeza will arrive on earth through Bulma.It was only when Freeza's ship was about to land on earth that everyone can sense his ki.

- Like you said,Gotenks is one of the most cockiest character in the series.He thought he can take on Beerus in base.When Gotenks arrived,No one showed some kind of relief.

- But It would create more hype if 1st Form Freeza will be stronger than U.Gohan and Gotenks.

Didn't Super Boo explained to Gohan that he needed to wait one hour for the kids to fused again?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Only if they use Super Saiyan 3, which they didn't here. Normally, you can perform Fusion immediately, so the kids could use Fusion whenever they wanted.

I didn't really know this.Where was this stated ?

When the kids were doing Fusion & kept failing, they were doing Fusion immediately after it ended (when they went from fat to skinny to normal). Same thing happened in the JSAT special where he first became Fat Gotenks and then immediately normal Gotenks, in M12 where after becoming Veku, Goku & Vegeta didn't have to wait for an hour, and in GT where Goku & Vegeta were trying to become SS4 Gogeta again immediately after their Fusion ended, but failed only because Goku was out of stamina.

[Lord Beerus]

When the kids were doing Fusion & kept failing, they were doing Fusion immediately after it ended (when they went from fat to skinny to normal).

But that doesn't really indicates the kids did the fusion right after failing it. Hell, those scenes were arguably a gag since it lead to Krillin breaking the fourth wall and criticizing Tori-Bot for being lazy and photocopying pages.

Same thing happened in the JSAT special where he first became Fat Gotenks and then immediately normal Gotenks, in M12 where after becoming Veku, Goku & Vegeta didn't have to wait for an hour, and in GT where Goku & Vegeta were trying to become SS4 Gogeta again immediately after their Fusion ended, but failed only because Goku was out of stamina.

The movies, apart from BOG and ROF, and GT, are pretty much a non factor on the established main story.

[LowRyder2005]

Only if they use Super Saiyan 3, which they didn't here. Normally, you can perform Fusion immediately, so the kids could use Fusion whenever they wanted.

I didn't really know this.Where was this stated ?

When the kids were doing Fusion & kept failing, they were doing Fusion immediately after it ended (when they went from fat to skinny to normal). Same thing happened in the JSAT special where he first became Fat Gotenks and then immediately normal Gotenks, in M12 where after becoming Veku, Goku & Vegeta didn't have to wait for an hour, and in GT where Goku & Vegeta were trying to become SS4 Gogeta again immediately after their Fusion ended, but failed only because Goku was out of stamina.

Good argoment, but I think this points to failed Fusions needing no time to be retried, nevertheless. I don't really think there is an instance of a successfull Fusion being actually done twice in a row. When Gotenks defuses outside Buu's home before facing Fat Buu it's not like Goten and Trunks refuse immediately, do they? They just go home, and they had wanted to face Buu until a moment before.

GT is a fair point though. Goku wanted to redo the Fusion right away but could not because of stamina. IIRC, they just said he had been fighting nonstop and wheter Fusion played some part is unclear (it could have, maybe: Vegeta drops out too some minutes later).

Is there a specific reference to SS3 creating the 1 Hour limit? Too lazy to check again.

[Bullza]

Well according to Herms

"So Goku's using a x10 Kaio-ken" with his Super Saiyan Blue form.

6/10/15 power level structure.

Seeing as that's obviously been retconned then there's no reason why Base form can't be equal to SSJG and SSGSS can't make him 50x stronger.

[Birusu16]

Yea this definitely puts an end to the 6/10/15 scale. 10x Kaioken and still weaker than Beerus.

[Chiki]

Ok the power levels make no sense anymore.

Spoiler:

Goku uses a Kaioken x10 against Hit. If SSB Goku is even equal to SSG Goku, which we know he's not since he's stronger, then SSB Goku x10 =

But we also know that the difference between SSG Goku and Beerus cannot be big, due to:

1. BoG and Toriyama statements about SSG Goku = 60% Beerus (which may have been retconned)
2. Even if 1 was retconned, we still have 10% Beerus being needed to take SSJ2 Raging Vegeta's attacks. And we know SSG Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ2 Raging Vegeta so the power difference between 100% Beerus and SSG Goku cannot be that great, giving further proof of 1 (SSG Goku is 6 and Beerus is 10).

SSB Goku with Kaioken x10 is a 60 on Toriyama's scale, making him 4x more powerful than Whis. Wtf

Yea this definitely puts an end to the 6/10/15 scale. 10x Kaioken and still weaker than Beerus.

No one said he's still weaker than Beerus.

But we know 10% Beerus is needed against SSJ2 Vegeta, which gives some proof of the 6/10/15 scale.

I think it's best to just admit that the power levels make no sense and to give up.

[ZombieVito]

Yep, this episode broke the series.

[Birusu16]

Beerus was just THAT much stronger than SSJG/SSJB. It's pretty much that simple.

[Hugo Boss]

Good argoment, but I think this points to failed Fusions needing no time to be retried, nevertheless. I don't really think there is an instance of a successfull Fusion being actually done twice in a row. When Gotenks defuses outside Buu's home before facing Fat Buu it's not like Goten and Trunks refuse immediately, do they? They just go home, and they had wanted to face Buu until a moment before.

GT is a fair point though. Goku wanted to redo the Fusion right away but could not because of stamina. IIRC, they just said he had been fighting nonstop and wheter Fusion played some part is unclear (it could have, maybe: Vegeta drops out too some minutes later).

Is there a specific reference to SS3 creating the 1 Hour limit? Too lazy to check again.

Yeah, what would be the point of introducing a weakness like a 30-minute-limit if the parts can merge again right away? There should be a time-limit to redo Fusion. Okay, after the failed attempts, Goten and Trunks could do it, but perhaps that was possible because the merged Gotenks was very weak, thus not consuming a decent amount of stamina? Whereas, a successful attempt would result in a huge energy consumption. Coupling that with SS3, the time-limit is reduced to 5 minutes and the waiting time increased to 1-hour. I guess a normal Fusion would be worth a 10 minutes' waiting at least.

[Bullza]

They never made much sense anyway. They've retconned Beerus and the others powers apparently.

Toriyama must not have known that the series was going to continue the way that it did, he wanted Goku and Vegeta to get stronger but he didn't want them passing Beerus and Whis so they've been pushed up.

If SSJB Goku was a 8 then with Kaioken x10 he'd be an 80 but Hit wasn't immediately ROFLstomped and he isn't gonna be as strong as Beerus or Champa so they're more likely a 100 now rather than a 10.

It's a 6/100/150 power level structure now

[Chiki]

Beerus was just THAT much stronger than SSJG/SSJB. It's pretty much that simple.

Yes, but Beerus can't be stronger than Kaioken x10 SSB Goku, because SSB Goku >> SSG Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10% Beerus >>>> SSJ2 Raging Vegeta.

Like I said before, power for a short time period doesn't make Goku overall stronger than Beerus. Piccolo charging Makankosappo didn't make him stronger than Raditz overall, so why would Goku overall be stronger than Beerus with a very temporary and harmful powerup?

How the hell does Kaioken x10 even work? If it multiplies his SSB power by 10 he can wreck Whis like nothing. That makes no sense.

We still know that the 6/10/15 has to be true to some degree because of the stupid 10% statement.

[Birusu16]

Beerus was just THAT much stronger than SSJG/SSJB. It's pretty much that simple.

Yes, but Beerus can't be stronger than Kaioken x10 SSB Goku, because SSB Goku >> SSG Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10% Beerus >>>> SSJ2 Raging Vegeta.

Like I said before, power for a short time period doesn't make Goku overall stronger than Beerus. Piccolo charging Makankosappo didn't make him stronger than Raditz overall, so why would Goku overall be stronger than Beerus with a very temporary and harmful powerup?

How the hell does Kaioken x10 even work? If it multiplies his SSB power by 10 he can wreck Whis like nothing. That makes no sense.

We still know that the 6/10/15 has to be true to some degree because of the stupid 10% statement.

Yes he can and he is. Getting hung up on useless numbers in is pointless. Based on the numbers from Super and the movies Goku would be stronger than Whis and he definitely isn't. Those numbers are arbitrary figures that mean nothing at this point.

[Chiki]

Beerus was just THAT much stronger than SSJG/SSJB. It's pretty much that simple.

Yes, but Beerus can't be stronger than Kaioken x10 SSB Goku, because SSB Goku >> SSG Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10% Beerus >>>> SSJ2 Raging Vegeta.

Like I said before, power for a short time period doesn't make Goku overall stronger than Beerus. Piccolo charging Makankosappo didn't make him stronger than Raditz overall, so why would Goku overall be stronger than Beerus with a very temporary and harmful powerup?

How the hell does Kaioken x10 even work? If it multiplies his SSB power by 10 he can wreck Whis like nothing. That makes no sense.

We still know that the 6/10/15 has to be true to some degree because of the stupid 10% statement.

Yes he can and he is. Getting hung up on useless numbers in is pointless.

It's not useless, Toriyama himself said it lol.

Explain to me how you solve the problem with SS2 Raging Vegeta requiring 10% Beerus then. Do you think SSG Goku is equal to SS2 Raging Vegeta or something? Obviously there is a huge power gap. This is further proof of the 6/10/15 scale.

But then we have the Kaioken x10 thing.

I think it's best to just give up on power level discussions because they make no sense.

[Bullza]

The 6/10/15 statement was made a few years ago and before Resurrection F was released. That said that movie said the two of the together would be able to go toe to toe with Beerus. Their powers have been retconned to keep them above Goku and Vegeta is the only explanation.

We'd have to assume now that when Vegeta used 10% against Beerus he was really over compensating. Which would also mean that SSJ2 Vegeta wouldn't have to be stronger than Vegito at all.

[Lord Beerus]

Well according to Herms

"So Goku's using a x10 Kaio-ken" with his Super Saiyan Blue form.

Spoiler:

But seriously, this has just turned into an outright fucking mess. The 6-10-15 scale is pretty much dead now. There is a officially no way to tell how strong characters in the show are now.

[Birusu16]

It's not useless, Toriyama himself said it lol.

Explain to me how you solve the problem with SS2 Raging Vegeta requiring 10% Beerus then. Do you think SSG Goku is equal to SS2 Raging Vegeta or something? Obviously there is a huge power gap. This is further proof of the 6/10/15 scale.

But then we have the Kaioken x10 thing.

I think it's best to just give up on power level discussions because they make no sense.

And you think he or anyone involved in Super is basing power levels on those random numbers he threw out years ago? No. They don't care about those numbers and this episode makes that obvious.

Herms made the perfect statement a few minutes ago:

Guys, I wouldn't get too hung up on Toriyama's old 6/10/15 comment. I doubt anyone making Super has that in mind right now.