Two Super Saiyan 4 Questions

[Steven Bloodriver]

1) Would Super Saiyan 4 be stronger if the transformation were to have been achieved after it's user entered the realm of the Gods first?

2) How far could the ultimate form of a Saiyan displayed in Dragon Ball GT go if it was put to the test in the form of Goku, Vegeta, and Gogeta from the Shadow Dragons Saga using the form against Botamo, Frost, Auta Magetta, Cabba, and Hit?

[Kaboom]

1) Super Saiyan 4 would only theoretically be "stronger" than the god forms if it was used by someone like Goku or Vegeta who had previously gained godly power. The regular Super Saiyan forms presumably don't make a major difference when combined with godly ki (since SSGSS is just using SS to channel god-power), but adding an extra source of power like Oozaru into the mix might be different.

2) No clue. No attempt has been made by Toriyama, Toei, or anyone else in charge to compare Super's top powers to GT's. They probably never will.

[Steven Bloodriver]

Thank you very much, Kaboom.

[Darkprince410]

2) No clue. No attempt has been made by Toriyama, Toei, or anyone else in charge to compare Super's top powers to GT's. They probably never will.

Well, we do have the Vegetto / Ssj4 Goku comparison from the animanga adaptation of the Goku Jr. special, saying that Buu Saga Vegetto was possibly stronger than Ssj4 Goku. Compare that to Goku's statement in the extended edition of BoG/Super where he states that he doesn't think fusing with Vegeta would be enough to stop Beerus (making no specifications as to which kind of fusion), and we "sort of" have a comparison there.

[Analytic]

1) Would Super Saiyan 4 be stronger if the transformation were to have been achieved after it's user entered the realm of the Gods first?

Agreed with Kaboom on this one. It's also worth noting that Super Saiyan 4 is said to bring a user to their utmost limits. If we assume that becoming a God enhanced/increased Goku's potential, then his Super Saiyan 4 would end up stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan most likely.

2) How far could the ultimate form of a Saiyan displayed in Dragon Ball GT go if it was put to the test in the form of Goku, Vegeta, and Gogeta from the Shadow Dragons Saga using the form against Botamo, Frost, Auta Magetta, Cabba, and Hit?

In my opinion, SS4 Gogeta is even stronger than Whis and Vados, so he'd easily defeat anyone you mentioned. Can't really say for SS4 Goku and SS4 Vegeta, though.

[Desassina]

To be honest, I was under the impression that SSJ4 served as a new base, while being a transformation as well, like Base Saiyans are close to Gods now. Since Fusion is more than the sum of its parts, the end result is a "super-ized" character with hair matching the upswept and spiky appearance of a SSJ. Perhaps SSJ4 Gogeta was "super-ized" by having red hair, like Kaioken and SSJ God offered a red/pink shade. I would have liked to see a golden SSJ4 as the next step, but let me address your first point with another example. The media likes to portray Gogeta and Vegetto as rivals, when they have their obvious differences not necessarily related to power, but lasting effect instead. They represent a new realm of power, like SSJ4 could be symbolic to Base Goku with God power, and SSJ4 Gogeta a temporary boost like SSJ God. This could only be true if somehow their God power was taken at the end of DB Super.

[TheMikado]

The first and most important thing about Super is that base Goku is now at SSJ3 levels which is also true in GT as well. So starting from that same level base, we have no idea what the SSB multiplier is. However the SSJ4 multiplier is well thought out as the combination of the Oozaru multiplier x10 and the SSJ x50

Meaning x500 base which in GT is roughly the x500 DBZ SSJ3 for perspective.
Now there is also SSJ4 full power which some speculate is the SSJ2 version of SSJ4. Therefore it's the SSJ2 multiplier x100 with the x10 Oozaru multiplier so x1000 GT base or DBZ SSJ3 x1000. Now some theorize that Goku could probably do the SSJ3 version of SSJ4 with is that x400 base times x10 Oozauru which is where that SSJ4 is x10 SSJ3 nonsense comes from.

As far as the God business in GT it looks like this saga already happened as far as power levels as Gokus base got to GT levels after the BoG events.

[Speedster]

Now there is also SSJ4 full power which some speculate is the SSJ2 version of SSJ4. Therefore it's the SSJ2 multiplier x100 with the x10 Oozaru multiplier so x1000 GT base or DBZ SSJ3 x1000. Now some theorize that Goku could probably do the SSJ3 version of SSJ4 with is that x400 base times x10 Oozauru which is where that SSJ4 is x10 SSJ3 nonsense comes from.

That is not from where this comes from and it is not a nonsense at all. We saw SSJ3 kid Goku going up against Baby Vegeta and getting trashed. Then he transforms into SSJ4 and he is roughly on par with Oozaru Baby Vegeta who if we go by the standard Oozaru multipliers was x10 regular Baby Vegeta. Also most likely SSJ3 kid Goku was half the power of SSJ3 adult Goku which would then mean that SSJ4=10xSSJ3 Adult (or x20 SSJ3 kid). Remember that Goku felt that he could take on Baby as SSJ3 only to find that he couldn’t reach full power in his kid form.

SSJ3 kid Goku=1
SSJ3 Adult Goku (theoretical)=2
Baby Vegeta=2
Oozaru Baby Vegeta=2*10=20
SSJ4 Goku=10*SSJ3 Adult Goku=20

[Analytic]

Also most likely SSJ3 kid Goku was half the power of SSJ3 adult Goku

The GT Perfect Files confirm that Goku did not get any weaker when he became a child. He only has worse stamina.

[Speedster]

Also most likely SSJ3 kid Goku was half the power of SSJ3 adult Goku

The GT Perfect Files confirm that Goku did not get any weaker when he became a child. He only has worse stamina.

In base, as SSJ1 and SSJ2, yes, he was the same. But as SSJ3 he arguably couldn't reach its max power before overflowing due to his body being in its kid form. Just to use the standard multipliers for you to understand:
Base kid Goku=Adult Goku=A
SSJ1 kid Goku=SSJ1 Adult Goku=50A
SSJ2 kid Goku=SSJ2 Adult Goku=100A
SSJ3 kid Goku=SSJ2 kid Goku*2=200A
SSJ3 Adult Goku=SSJ2 Adult Goku*4=400A

In any case the SSJ4 multiplier needs to be at least x10 over the SSJ3 for SSJ4 Goku to be on par with Oozaru Baby Vegeta. If his kid form were equal to his Adult form even as SSJ3, then the SSJ4 multiplier upon SSJ3 is even larger - arguably x20.

[Lord Frieza]

This all hinges on Super and GT being in the same universe doesn't it.

Also none of you are taking into consideration the power gap between Super's Goku and Beerus and GT's Goku and Baby.

I've heard lots of theories on how strong SS4 makes Goku with them mainly ranging from 10x to 30x the power of SS3 Goku however their is no solid idea for its exact power, we just know he's about as strong Golden Oozaru Baby who's power is anywhere between 10x to 60x (or more) stronger then Super Baby Vegeta 2.

However we do get a very good idea of how powerful SSG must be. Goku states that even if he and Vegeta fused they could not beat Beerus. The power provided fusion alone allows Vegetto at base form to dominate Super Buu, who's natural power alone surpassed both Goku and Vegeta's a very large margin, after he had absorbed Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo. While I wont count hypothetical SS2 and 3 power their is no denying that SS alone makes the already unstoppable Vegetto 50x more powerful then before. He is so powerful that it has been suggested that he is as strong if not slightly stronger SS4 Goku during his fight with Baby.

Now keep in mind that in Super this is not Buu Saga Vegetto we are talking about as Goku and especially Vegeta have grow stronger since that battle which means if they did fuse logically Vegetto is more powerful as well. Yet even then his power is still not considered sufficient to tackle Beerus. The power granted to Goku by SSG must logically surpass the combined power up of fusion and SS especially for Goku to make the statement that he never thought a realm of power like that existed.

So taking all that into account SSG is the stronger transformation as it makes Goku more powerful then at least a Super era SS Vegetto who, logicaly had at that point surpassed Baby Saga Goku.

This is why Super and GT cannot co exist in the same universe/timeline, SSG's power up completely eclipses SS4's. In all logic and reason Goku would not have even needed SS4 to beat Baby is Super had happened before it.

SS4 just like 3, 2, Grade 2 and 3 has been made redundant by the new model super saiyan forms just as Super Saiyan God has been made redundant (as far as we know) by Super Saiyan Blue.

[TheMikado]

There's no basis for the above, in fact the official literature say the opposite. Furthermore you power levels do not make sense in the grand scheme of things. His power level did not drop as a child despite what you want to say.

The is a theoritically power level scale based on base Goku.
SSJ3 x400
Babi Vegta x450 ( Vegeta x100 + Gohan x100 + Goten x100 + Babis X150)
SSJ4 x500
Babi Ozaru x 850 ( multiplier is only on Vegeta's body and not Babis acquired power. )
Full power SSJ4 x1000

The 10x assumption comes from his 10x kamehama that Goku performs as SSJ4
But this only a reference to his Oozaru form multiplier.

[TheMikado]

@ Lord Frieza you are incorrect. On strictly power levels alone GT and Super can be in the same continuity because Gokus Base is approximately the same. Also, in addition Supers is WAY more obscure. GT just builds on existing multipliers and drops pretty explicit hints on the degree of which the power levels increase and it's plausible.

[Lord Frieza]

There's no basis for the above, in fact the official literature say the opposite. Furthermore you power levels do not make sense in the grand scheme of things. His power level did not drop as a child despite what you want to say.

The is a theoritically power level scale based on base Goku.
SSJ3 x400
Babi Vegta x450 ( Vegeta x100 + Gohan x100 + Goten x100 + Babis X150)
SSJ4 x500
Babi Ozaru x 850 ( multiplier is only on Vegeta's body and not Babis acquired power. )
Full power SSJ4 x1000

The 10x assumption comes from his 10x kamehama that Goku performs as SSJ4
But this only a reference to his Oozaru form multiplier.

Yet Buu saga Vegetto is suggested to be on a smiler power to both Super Saiyan 4 Goku and by extension Baby. I am well aware of who Baby's stolen power from and I make it very clear that GT Goku and Baby could very well be stronger then my estimations.

There for by the time we reach the super era Vegetto (without takeing none cannon form into account) has logically surpassed both Goku and Baby. Talking about exact power levels is redundant.

[Lord Frieza]

@ Lord Frieza you are incorrect. On strictly power levels alone GT and Super can be in the same continuity because Gokus Base is approximately the same. Also, in addition Supers is WAY more obscure. GT just builds on existing multipliers and drops pretty explicit hints on the degree of which the power levels increase and it's plausible.

They do not in super Goku meets Beerus roughly one year after the Buu Saga while GT Goku's fight with Baby is almost 6 years from that date.

Edit: Also GT is just as obscure as Super as it relies on statements of individuals power and never gives hard numbers beyond Yī Xīng Lóng's statement that his super form is 10x stronger or more then his base. At least super gives us percentages and numbers to work with even if there vague

[TheMikado]

Where are you getting this information?????
In base super and GT Gokus based is estimated the same, SSJ3 DBZ era. SSJ4 is rated at about a x500 minimum multiplier over that. X4000 if you listen to fans. How is that even comparably to Z level Vegitto? I would say Vegetto make be able to rival Full power SSJ4 in Super now.

[Lord Frieza]

Stop working backwards from Super trying to justify your statements.

An my information comes from the comic Dragon Ball & GT where in it is wondered "if Vegito's strength is perhaps greater than a Super Saiyan 4". I will take that as a more official source then speculated power levels that dont mean anything in a series that has never been ruled by them.

[TheMikado]

Stop working backwards from Super trying to justify your statements.

An my information comes from the comic Dragon Ball & GT where in it is wondered "if Vegito's strength is perhaps greater than a Super Saiyan 4". I will take that as a more official source then speculated power levels that dont mean anything in a series that has never been ruled by them.

Like seriously what are you talking about???
I'm not working backwards from anything. In super and GT base Goku is DBZ SSj3 level and then multiplied hundreds or thousands of times over that for SSJ4. I literally don't know what you're argument is or what you're trying to prove?

[Lord Frieza]

Stop working backwards from Super trying to justify your statements.

An my information comes from the comic Dragon Ball & GT where in it is wondered "if Vegito's strength is perhaps greater than a Super Saiyan 4". I will take that as a more official source then speculated power levels that dont mean anything in a series that has never been ruled by them.

Like seriously what are you talking about???
I'm not working backwards from anything. In super and GT base Goku is DBZ SSj3 level and then multiplied hundreds or thousands of times over that for SSJ4. I literally don't know what you're argument is or what you're trying to prove?

I'm am not trying to prove anything. I'm am simply stating the logical outcome of the facts as I see them, that being that Super Saiyan God is in terms of its power boost greater then that of Super Saiyan 4. All I'm an doing is providing a counter argument to yours and others statements based on my perspective. Although I will admit it was rude of me to accuse you "working backwards" and I apologise.

[TheMikado]

Ok, but I'm trying to understand where you are getting that SSG gives a larger power boost then SSJ4 if the bases are equal to start with?

I.e. We know the minimum regardless of base for SSJ4 is x500. We have no idea about SSG but most have it as x500 as well. we know SSB give a less than x2 multipler over that based on the 6-10-15 scale while we have SSJ4 giving at least an x2 multiplier over the minimum x500. Even using the most conservative unofficial estimates the SSJ4 boost is larger than the total SSB boost if the bases are the same.