Two Super Saiyan 4 Questions

[Tectorman]

Ok, but I'm trying to understand where you are getting that SSG gives a larger power boost then SSJ4 if the bases are equal to start with?

I.e. We know the minimum regardless of base for SSJ4 is x500. We have no idea about SSG but most have it as x500 as well. we know SSB give a less than x2 multipler over that based on the 6-10-15 scale while we have SSJ4 giving at least an x2 multiplier over the minimum x500. Even using the most conservative unofficial estimates the SSJ4 boost is larger than the total SSB boost if the bases are the same.

"If the bases are the same" is probably where the difference in view is coming in. You think they are the same, others hold that they aren't. Both being Buu Saga SSJ3 or above tier does not denote equivalency, and that's before we even get into GT's Base even being SSJ3 tier or not. For example, I've only got GT Goku being 180x stronger than his Buu Saga self (and yes, I'm going off of the same "Rildo = Buu" line you probably are; I'm just not interpretting it the same way). Others may or may not. But the difference is probably that core assumption right there: "if the bases are the same".

[Lord Frieza]

Ok since I am very power level maths illiterate and I know of none after the Frieza saga(as In I never committed any fan works to memory) to work off of please explain to me how you came to those figure?

Also I don't believe their power levels are equal. I am stating GT Goku is the stronger of the too as more time had passed for him.

Even if I I throw out the comic statement and hypothetically say that even after SSG Super Goku is still weaker the his GT counterpart what I'm looking at the difference in power between both fighters and how they match up.

Since we have no official power levels and super saiyan 2 is no longer used in GT (as in Super) I see Baby getting a power boost of about 60x from his SBV2 form to his Golden Oozaru form. That calculation is simply based on the combined power boosts of SS and Oozaru. After this Baby is a close match for SS4 Goku.

To even of having a chance at fighting Beerus, Goku had to surpass the combined power of the fusion boost (which had previously allowed him and Vegeta to surpass the combined power of two warriors much stronger then themselves, with others thrown on top, with just Vegetto's base form) and SS's 50x.

So as I can see it SSG provides the bigger boost.

[TheMikado]

What is the boost on SSG?
The minimum boost of SSJ4 is x500 (SSJ x50 x Oozauru x 10)
Some fans have it as high as x4000

How are you getting SSG being higher. I'm not understanding your reasoning.
Also I also gave you multiplier that you even quoted earlier. Where are you getting you're multipliers because they are completely off. I've never seen anyone quote anything like that?

[Darkprince410]

What is the boost on SSG?
The minimum boost of SSJ4 is x500 (SSJ x50 x Oozauru x 10)
Some fans have it as high as x4000

How are you getting SSG being higher. I'm not understanding your reasoning.
Also I also gave you multiplier that you even quoted earlier. Where are you getting you're multipliers because they are completely off. I've never seen anyone quote anything like that?

Goku's Ssj3 form, a multiplier 400x his base form, was so far below Beerus that he didn't even need to use 10% of his power to effortlessly handle him (having stated to Vegeta later that Vegeta was the first in a long time to make him use ~10% or so of his power). Given this, we know then that Beerus was at least well over 4,000 times stronger than BoG era base Goku. So even if we were to stick with the old 6, 10, 15 ratio given to us way back in Battle of Gods, that would still put Ssj God at a multiplier of over 2,400 x base form at the very least.

So, say Beerus only used 5% of his power and took Ssj3 Goku out with no trouble. That'd put Beerus's full strength at 8,000x base Goku's, and thus Ssj God was 4,800x or so. I'm not saying that's how much he actually used, just saying that as a number to demonstrate. The less actual power Beerus used against Ssj3 Goku, the stronger the boost Ssj God gave him would have to be.

As for the whole Vegetto/Ssj4 Goku thing, it's pulled from the animanga of the Goku Jr. special for GT, as it included a section (in addition to the comic itself) of Goku's evolution through the franchise up to that point, and one of the entries regarded Vegetto.

Spoiler:

According to Herms, having initially verified the translation from the Chinese version of the comic before getting his hands on the Japanese version (and confirming the same basic translation), the dialogue is:

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

超サイヤ人4以上の強さかも!?="[His] strength [is] perhaps greater than Super Saiyan 4!?"

Given that it was compiled and published by Shueisha, the same company that released the Daizenshuu, the GT Perfect Files, etc, it falls under the same category as those would in terms of supplementary material.

[Lord Frieza]

What is the boost on SSG?
The minimum boost of SSJ4 is x500 (SSJ x50 x Oozauru x 10)
Some fans have it as high as x4000

How are you getting SSG being higher. I'm not understanding your reasoning.
Also I also gave you multiplier that you even quoted earlier. Where are you getting you're multipliers because they are completely off. I've never seen anyone quote anything like that?

Ok its about 5 in the morning were I am so I'll cut this short.

I'm not getting them from anywhere, they are my own workings out on the matter. I am not stating any hard facts on what their deadline power levels are.

Ok if SS4 is x500 (SSJ x50 x Oozauru x 10) how would you work out (fusion X SS 50x)? I get back to you on this later.

[GTX]

超サイヤ人4以上の強さかも!?="[His] strength [is] perhaps greater than Super Saiyan 4!?"

1. Perhaps
2. From random non canon book
3. Contradicts GT anime.

So that is not even a question to argue.
Not interested to debate it.

[Darkprince410]

超サイヤ人4以上の強さかも!?="[His] strength [is] perhaps greater than Super Saiyan 4!?"

1. Perhaps
2. From random non canon book
3. Contradicting GT anime.

So that is not even a question to argue.

1) Perhaps: adv. possibly but not certainly.

Even though it's indicating that it's not a certainty that Vegetto is stronger, it still means that they're close enough in strength that it's possible that Vegetto is the stronger.

2) It's an official published book by Shueisha, and thus is just as valid as a supplementary source of material as the Daizenshuu/Chozenshuu, the Super Exciting Guide, the GT Perfect Files, etc. You can dislike the guide books all you want, but it doesn't change that it's an official source saying Vegetto might be stronger.

3) Nothing about Vegetto being possibly stronger than Ssj4 Goku contradicts the anime.

[GTX]

Even though it's indicating that it's not a certainty that Vegetto is stronger, it still means that they're close enough in strength that it's possible that Vegetto is the stronger.

If you're not sure don't use it as your claim it is nothing to discuss and all my point still stand strong, not enough reason using that opinions to refute it.

GT is canon and has no plot hole so there is nothing to discuss though and about power level, GT had stated that super baby vegeta 2 is the strongest ki goku/ he has ever felt so it is stating that he is goku's latest strongest enemy and stronger than any transformation that he has done before, even freeza can feel or measure his own ki if not his opponent too in super anime even eventhough he was implied before that he cannot measure/ feel opponent ki. In GT a lot of people show their skill measuring power level and ki those are son goku and old kaioshin

I copy my previous posting.
I'm out from this discussion btw

[Darkprince410]

Even though it's indicating that it's not a certainty that Vegetto is stronger, it still means that they're close enough in strength that it's possible that Vegetto is the stronger.

If you're not sure don't use it as your claim it is nothing to discuss.

The OP asked about where the likes of Ssj4 Goku, Vegeta, and Gogeta would stand if they were to go against the Universe 6 fighters, and Kaboom responded that there was no such information ever given comparing GT to Super. That's why I brought up the animanga of the GT animated special, since its supplementary information section gave us an official frame of reference.

While it's clear that it's not saying that Vegetto is definitively stronger, the fact remains that they're close enough in power that it's a possibility.

You may dislike the statement or the source, but the fact still remains that it's an official statement placing Vegetto and Ssj4 Goku close enough in power to where Vegetto might be the stronger.

[Kaboom]

I don't think that bit about Vegetto and Super Saiyan 4 is even trying to actually compare the two or say they're close. I think it's just a somewhat roundabout reminder that we never saw Vegetto's full power, since he didn't need to use it against Boo. So for all we know he could be up there with GT's Super Saiyan 4 characters.

[Desassina]

I can see Vegetto being stronger than SSJ4, quite honestly. It was such an increase at the time, that a single person could only surpass it with God power, which is the point being made in the series. Some people have brought up the multipliers, and so I would like to give my own view:
- SSJ could have ranged from 50 to 100, by having its base number multiplied by 2.
- SSJ2 would range between 100 and 400, as 100 is multiplied by 2 to the power of 2.
- SSJ3 could range between 400 and 6'400, as 400 is multiplied by 2 to the power of 4.

Would SSJ4 sit at where SSJ3 ends? It's only a 6.4 in Beerus' old placement, while SSJ3 Vegetto would be an 8 and SSJG Goku (100%) a 7. Whoever says SSJ3 Vegetto can also say SSJ2 at Full Power, who is also an 8 to me. And then we have Baby Vegeta, who went from surpassing SSJ3 Goku to nearly matching him as an Oozaru, so it leaves us with:
- SSJ3 Goku at 0.4
- SSJ4 Goku at 6.4
- Baby Vegeta at 0.56
- Oozaru Baby at 5.6

This is only my headcanon though. Let the nitpicking begin.

[Lord Frieza]

What is the boost on SSG?
The minimum boost of SSJ4 is x500 (SSJ x50 x Oozauru x 10)
Some fans have it as high as x4000

How are you getting SSG being higher. I'm not understanding your reasoning.
Also I also gave you multiplier that you even quoted earlier. Where are you getting you're multipliers because they are completely off. I've never seen anyone quote anything like that?

I'm going to state that my multiplier was wrong (SS4 60x) as due to lack of sleep and it terns out I'm sick (I felt awful this morning) my
mind wasent working right. However I still stand by my statement especially after Darkprince410 provided the full quote and the facts behind it.

[Saturnine]

GT is canon and has no plot hole

I can imagine you saying that with your arms crossed and while stomping your foot

[TheMikado]

GT is canon and has no plot hole

I can imagine you saying that with your arms crossed and while stomping your foot

GT has less plot holes then Super even at the same point in its airings.
Once Super actually concludes we will be able to see how many total plot holes it has but even right now, and at its current pace it looks to far outclass GT in that department to the point we even very casual fans are able to detect the plot holes. You can check any anime site, YouTube, etc. heck the latest episode has youtubers calling out the inconsistent stuff.

[Lord Frieza]

GT is canon and has no plot hole

I can imagine you saying that with your arms crossed and while stomping your foot

GT has less plot holes then Super even at the same point in its airings.
Once Super actually concludes we will be able to see how many total plot holes it has but even right now, and at its current pace it looks to far outclass GT in that department to the point we even very casual fans are able to detect the plot holes. You can check any anime site, YouTube, etc. heck the latest episode has youtubers calling out the inconsistent stuff.

Super and GT both have their fair share of plot holes just as the original Dragon Ball series dose.

But to name a few of GT's of the top of my head.

How dose Old Kai know about SS4 or at least of a transformation beyond SS3 despite having little to no knowledge of saiyans, never mentioning it during the Buu saga and never providing any evidence that their is one? While you can come up with all manner of explanations their is no in story explanation and is there for a plot hole.

How the hell did Gero and Muu make a copy 17 in hell?

Oozaru for some reason now breath fire both in the passed and present.

Oozaru Baby not being able to destroy the earth despite his power utterly surpassing all DB villians. I mean seriously Frieza blow up a planet that was much further way from namek then the earth was from New Plant. And before anyone says it, I dont care that the attack wasent charged, with his level of power Baby should be able destroy a planet at that distance with no effort on his part. I'm not bashing Baby here (he's one of my favourite DB villains) but that makes literately no sense.

Goku being knocked out of his SS4 from one rebounded Kamahamaha x10, seriously what the hell?

Why dose Ginyu have his old body back in hell when it was never his to begin with? Minor but still note worthy.

[Khin]

^ And Goku being amazed at Omega Shenron being able to destroy a City when even damn Piccolo Daiamo was able to do it back in DB.

[TheMikado]

I messed up my long long long post of Super plotholes. Ill try again later but Supers plotholes are 10x worse.
I will just say Universe level punches are not mysteriously absent even after surpass SSG several times over with SSB X Kaioken
We should have been experiencing them since RoF
Super is 6 months after Buu but they get many of the character ages wrong?!>?
10% Rageta yet we still dont know if SSB X 10 is stronger than Beerus
Kais knowing exactly how Kaioken works with SSJ. They wouldnt have even seen Goku use Kaioken unless they watched the Goku/Vegeta fight in which case they would also know about Oozaru form. Your argument is that they didnt know about saiyans so even if aware of kaioken how could be possible know specifics about an incredibly rare form of a race he doesnt know anything about as you say. In fact this is worse than GT since Old Kai didnt know exactly what would happen or how it worked, just that Saiyans needed tails for their full power. If you want to use the Old Kai arguement it would go 10x over for Super.

If you want the user the Ginyu argument which again is x10 worse because he shouldnt have even been wished back due to the wish itself not transporting Frieza's men. Even if you want to use the fact that he was a frog he should be dead by now, it's been like 15 years and frogs dont live that long. Even if you want to ignore that the whole reason he couldtn use his change ability all these years is because he couldnt speak. Your Ginyu requires several layers of contridiction just to work in Super.

Like I said theres a ton more and my reponse post looked like a novel so I respond with the full list later but seriously do you really want to do this in here? It will completely derail the topic.

[Khin]

She is stated to be 38 in Super making her younger than Goku. It is possible Bulma was lying to hide her true age, but there is no indication she is lying other than her reputation of vanity.

If i remember correctly,this was movie-only.

[TheMikado]

She is stated to be 38 in Super making her younger than Goku. It is possible Bulma was lying to hide her true age, but there is no indication she is lying other than her reputation of vanity.

If i remember correctly,this was movie-only.

This was just one of my points but the ages are still off in Super if I remember correctly and not just Bulmas.

[Darkprince410]

I messed up my long long long post of Super plotholes. Ill try again later but Supers plotholes are 10x worse.
I will just say Universe level punches are not mysteriously absent even after surpass SSG several times over with SSB X Kaioken
We should have been experiencing them since RoF
Super is 6 months after Buu but they get many of the character ages wrong?!>?
10% Rageta yet we still dont know if SSB X 10 is stronger than Beerus
Kais knowing exactly how Kaioken works with SSJ. They wouldnt have even seen Goku use Kaioken unless they watched the Goku/Vegeta fight in which case they would also know about Oozaru form. Your argument is that they didnt know about saiyans so even if aware of kaioken how could be possible know specifics about an incredibly rare form of a race he doesnt know anything about as you say. In fact this is worse than GT since Old Kai didnt know exactly what would happen or how it worked, just that Saiyans needed tails for their full power. If you want to use the Old Kai arguement it would go 10x over for Super.

If you want the user the Ginyu argument which again is x10 worse because he shouldnt have even been wished back due to the wish itself not transporting Frieza's men. Even if you want to use the fact that he was a frog he should be dead by now, it's been like 15 years and frogs dont live that long. Even if you want to ignore that the whole reason he couldtn use his change ability all these years is because he couldnt speak. Your Ginyu requires several layers of contridiction just to work in Super.

Like I said theres a ton more and my reponse post looked like a novel so I respond with the full list later but seriously do you really want to do this in here? It will completely derail the topic.

1) Super is not 6 months after Buu. It starts out six months after Buu, but there's an established time skip stated as well. Outside of physical appearance, we've not had anything mentioned to us regarding ages that contradicts what was established beforehand.

2) We have no frame of reference still for how powerful Vegeta's rage boost pushed him in relation to other characters, apart from that (outside of potentially Vegetto), Vegeta was the strongest of the heroes we've ever had at the time. For all we know, his boost could have pushed him thousands of times stronger than he was beforehand, so I don't see why that's problematic. Besides, it's not that rage boosted Vegeta = 10% Beerus, just that Beerus went to ~10% to come out completely unscathed.

3) Rou Kaioushin has shown considerable knowledge for things he shouldn't know about, so him knowing about things like the Kaiou-ken and making inferences on how it'd work with the Ssj forms isn't unreasonable.

4) Your argument regarding GInyu might have a point if it were a frog from Earth. However, this is a Namekian amphibian, and we have no idea how long they can live normally.