Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Draconic]

Base Cabbe - 0.8
Base Goku/Vegeta - 1
Assault Form Frost - 1
Piccolo - 1.5
Magetta - 2
Final Form Frost - 3
SSJ Cabbe - 4
SSJ Goku/Vegeta - 5
SSB Goku/Vegeta - 7
Hit - 7.5
KKx10 SSB Goku - 8
Beerus / Champa - 10
Whis / Vados - 15

For reference:
Final Form Freeza - 0.5
Golden Freeza - 7
SSB Goku/Vegeta (RoF) - 6.5
SSG Goku - 6
Majin Buu - 0.4
SSJ Vegetto - 3.5

The God scale is used as tiers, and a character needs to get 10x more powerful than he is currently to jump a tier.

[ssbgoku]

Vegeta was never at 10% of Beerus' power. People need to stop saying that. Beerus used 10% to one-shot him. Nothing more.

Goku and Vegeta WEREN'T strong enough to be his play toys in Super. That's specifically stated and the entire reason he told Whis to send them to that training dimension similar to the RoSaT. And yes, the caste/tree argument does take precedence over the 6/10/15 scale at this point as it aligns far more with SSJB + KK x10 Goku still being weaker than Beerus than the scale. Absolutely nothing suggests that comparison didn't come from Toriyama either.

I know that, but Enraged vegeta would be at least 1% and most likely 2% of beerus power. He was also stated only Master Roshi to suprass finally ssj3 goku which Goku confirmed later on never saying comparing vegeta to buutenks or even buuhan.

Also in fight of bog arc beerus was shown powering up a lot with aura raising and flashing again and again and so was ssg goku. There is no way beerus at the very least would no use more then 30% of his power against that goku. Even if we took the absolute minimal approach we would get ssg goku -20% beerus which multiplied by 10 makes ssb ssb goku more then 2 times stronger then beerus.

As I said it is either that Kaioken only affect base power of goku and add it to ssb so gain isn't such huge or dbs is just one big lie and everyone can be as strong as needed at any moment, which would be bad writting.

[ekrolo2]

Base Cabbe - 0.8
Base Goku/Vegeta - 1
Assault Form Frost - 1
Piccolo - 1.5
Magetta - 2
Final Form Frost - 3
SSJ Cabbe - 4
SSJ Goku/Vegeta - 5
SSB Goku/Vegeta - 7
Hit - 7.5
KKx10 SSB Goku - 8
Beerus / Champa - 10
Whis / Vados - 15

For reference:
Final Form Freeza - 0.5
Golden Freeza - 7
SSB Goku/Vegeta (RoF) - 6.5
SSG Goku - 6
Majin Buu - 0.4
SSJ Vegetto - 3.5

The God scale is used as tiers, and a character needs to get 10x more powerful than he is currently to jump a tier.

I always liked the idea of the scale representing tiers instead of it being a 2+2=5 kind of thing. Now it's pretty much the only way you can reconcile things at all with the 6/10/15 statement even though the writers don't care about it.

[Desassina]

Or maybe Akira Toriyama's numbers are going to be forgotten, just like his wish for SSJ to be 10 times the increase, when the guides made it a multiplier of 50 and we all accepted it. Can't you guys just wait?

[Birusu16]

Vegeta was never at 10% of Beerus' power. People need to stop saying that. Beerus used 10% to one-shot him. Nothing more.

Goku and Vegeta WEREN'T strong enough to be his play toys in Super. That's specifically stated and the entire reason he told Whis to send them to that training dimension similar to the RoSaT. And yes, the caste/tree argument does take precedence over the 6/10/15 scale at this point as it aligns far more with SSJB + KK x10 Goku still being weaker than Beerus than the scale. Absolutely nothing suggests that comparison didn't come from Toriyama either.

I know that, but Enraged vegeta would be at least 1% and most likely 2% of beerus power. He was also stated only Master Roshi to suprass finally ssj3 goku which Goku confirmed later on never saying comparing vegeta to buutenks or even buuhan.

Also in fight of bog arc beerus was shown powering up a lot with aura raising and flashing again and again and so was ssg goku. There is no way beerus at the very least would no use more then 30% of his power against that goku. Even if we took the absolute minimal approach we would get ssg goku -20% beerus which multiplied by 10 makes ssb ssb goku more then 2 times stronger then beerus.

As I said it is either that Kaioken only affect base power of goku and add it to ssb so gain isn't such huge or dbs is just one big lie and everyone can be as strong as needed at any moment, which would be bad writting.

Flaring your aura up does not equate to powering up. Hit literally just did it in this episode and his power never changed.

And SSJG Goku certainly can be below 10% Beerus. If he was 8% of Beerus' full power as a SSJG/SSJB then KK x10 would jump him up to 80%, which is enough to cause Beerus to become nervous. It also wouldn't cause any problems with SSJG not being drastically stronger than rage Vegeta as Vegeta would've only been like 1-5%. These percentages clearly AREN'T minimal.

Either way, all of these numbers are irrelevant at this point. Toriyama and Toei aren't writing these episodes with these numbers in mind, so you should stop trying to put numbers on their power levels. The only thing definitive is that Whis, Vados, Beerus, and Champa remain at the top.

[TheMikado]

Vegeta was never at 10% of Beerus' power. People need to stop saying that. Beerus used 10% to one-shot him. Nothing more.

Goku and Vegeta WEREN'T strong enough to be his play toys in Super. That's specifically stated and the entire reason he told Whis to send them to that training dimension similar to the RoSaT. And yes, the caste/tree argument does take precedence over the 6/10/15 scale at this point as it aligns far more with SSJB + KK x10 Goku still being weaker than Beerus than the scale. Absolutely nothing suggests that comparison didn't come from Toriyama either.

I know that, but Enraged vegeta would be at least 1% and most likely 2% of beerus power. He was also stated only Master Roshi to suprass finally ssj3 goku which Goku confirmed later on never saying comparing vegeta to buutenks or even buuhan.

Also in fight of bog arc beerus was shown powering up a lot with aura raising and flashing again and again and so was ssg goku. There is no way beerus at the very least would no use more then 30% of his power against that goku. Even if we took the absolute minimal approach we would get ssg goku -20% beerus which multiplied by 10 makes ssb ssb goku more then 2 times stronger then beerus.

As I said it is either that Kaioken only affect base power of goku and add it to ssb so gain isn't such huge or dbs is just one big lie and everyone can be as strong as needed at any moment, which would be bad writting.

The last point is on the nose. Literally any character can be as strong as they want at any time.
If even after all this time SSB still puts them at less than 10% of Beerus then that crazy and makes everything that's been happening before seem even more futile.

Also the Kaioken applying to base makes no sense with the counting up. And even less sense because we don't know the multiplier. If SSJ is x50 and SSB is x100 why would you do something that has a 90% chance of failure for a 10% power boost??? Plus we don't even know the multipliers even if SSB was like x30 where would that put SSJ??? Further than that we just learned SSB drains stamina badly from the previous episode, but know it has better Ki control so he can use Kaioken X10 but maybe only applies to his base which is seperste from the God Ki. How is this more simple transformations this seems incredibly convoluted. I'm in the poor writing for the sake of fan service destroying the narrative boat.

[TheMikado]

Flaring your aura up does not equate to powering up. Hit literally just did it in this episode and his power never changed.

And SSJG Goku certainly can be below 10% Beerus. If he was 8% of Beerus' full power as a SSJG/SSJB then KK x10 would jump him up to 80%, which is enough to cause Beerus to become nervous. It also wouldn't cause any problems with SSJG not being drastically stronger than rage Vegeta as Vegeta would've only been like 1-5%. These percentages clearly AREN'T minimal.

Either way, all of these numbers are irrelevant at this point. Toriyama and Toei aren't writing these episodes with these numbers in mind, so you should stop trying to put numbers on their power levels. The only thing definitive is that Whis, Vados, Beerus, and Champa remain at the top.

This makes even less sense. In your scale SSJ would need to be like a x5 multiplier and SSB a x10.
There's nothing wrong with power levels. Z was basically built on the entire premise and we Always had a generally idea of about how powerful an enemy was in relation to the protagonists either explicitly or implied. As a matter of fact the BoG and ROF arcs were ALL about gaining MASSIVE amounts of power and obtaining it. If this is the crux of your narrative how can you expect us to NOT question this? It's literally been the entire theme of Super up until the tournament.

[Draconic]

I feel like while the power levels are pretty screwed it's still obvious enough where everybody stands in relationship to eachother.

Base Saiyans < Piccolo << Frost < Magetta < Super Saiyans <<< Hit <= God Saiyans << Gods of Destruction <<< Attendants

[Sora Saiyan]

I can't see KK only increasing base strength, if Goku went from an 8 to a 9 with KKx10 why the hell was he way to fast for Hit with only a standard KK? That logic would mean that Goku got a hell of a lot faster by increasing by like 0.1-2 on the god scale. After the first KK boost gave Goku such a notable increase it should be almost impossible to argue that it was just increasing his base power. Hopefully the manga keeps it st a normal KK though, as a x10 seems like way too much.

[Birusu16]

Flaring your aura up does not equate to powering up. Hit literally just did it in this episode and his power never changed.

And SSJG Goku certainly can be below 10% Beerus. If he was 8% of Beerus' full power as a SSJG/SSJB then KK x10 would jump him up to 80%, which is enough to cause Beerus to become nervous. It also wouldn't cause any problems with SSJG not being drastically stronger than rage Vegeta as Vegeta would've only been like 1-5%. These percentages clearly AREN'T minimal.

Either way, all of these numbers are irrelevant at this point. Toriyama and Toei aren't writing these episodes with these numbers in mind, so you should stop trying to put numbers on their power levels. The only thing definitive is that Whis, Vados, Beerus, and Champa remain at the top.

This makes even less sense. In your scale SSJ would need to be like a x5 multiplier and SSB a x10.
There's nothing wrong with power levels. Z was basically built on the entire premise and we Always had a generally idea of about how powerful an enemy was in relation to the protagonists either explicitly or implied. As a matter of fact the BoG and ROF arcs were ALL about gaining MASSIVE amounts of power and obtaining it. If this is the crux of your narrative how can you expect us to NOT question this? It's literally been the entire theme of Super up until the tournament.

No it hasn't. It's been about surpassing your limits, which has always been a theme in DB. Assigning arbitrary numbers to characters in order to reflect how strong they are was done away with after the Namek saga. These writers are not writing these episodes with these ridiculous numbers in mind.

But far be it from me to sit here and tell you what to do. If you want to sit here and cause yourself tons of stress trying to figure out how strong everyone is based on arbitrary numbers then feel free to.

[Birusu16]

I feel like while the power levels are pretty screwed it's still obvious enough where everybody stands in relationship to eachother.

Base Saiyans < Piccolo << Frost < Magetta < Super Saiyans <<< Hit <= God Saiyans << Gods of Destruction <<< Attendants

This is all that needs to be said. We don't need numbers to figure out how powerful everyone is at this point.

[TheMikado]

Look nobody here invented the 10% Rageta statistic. That was the writers doing. We didn't make this numbers. We are responding to them because some of us enjoy the mathematics behind them. Frieza didn't surpass any limits he trained for 6 months and gets massively stronger. There was never a limit on Freeza. even Vegeta only trained for a few months.

[TheMikado]

I really hope the x10 was added by Toei and that the script only had a regular Kaioken. Because it wouldn't make sense with how Kaioken works, Goku states he's has a big chance of failing, Vegeta emphasizes he might die. So Goku decides to multiply it by 10, isn't it contradictory?
Could just be mindless hyping. A regular Kaioken could still fit with Goku not surpassing Beerus, since Kaioken is a very unstable form. x10 is overkill.

I'll wait to see if it's also in the manga.

We will probably know until mid May.

I hope we don't have to wait that long. A regular Kaioken would have been plenty and easy to reconcile. Now we have people stating SSB is like 8% of Beerus now.

[ssbgoku]

I can't see KK only increasing base strength, if Goku went from an 8 to a 9 with KKx10 why the hell was he way to fast for Hit with only a standard KK? That logic would mean that Goku got a hell of a lot faster by increasing by like 0.1-2 on the god scale. After the first KK boost gave Goku such a notable increase it should be almost impossible to argue that it was just increasing his base power. Hopefully the manga keeps it st a normal KK though, as a x10 seems like way too much.

Disagree, KK being only multiplier on base works perfectly here. Also if you take the scale as not linear but expontential or even making gain much more impressive the higher you get on god scale, it makes perfect sense. Yeah hopefully manga keep it just regular kk increase.

Anyway divine ki and mortal ki being seprated and working on different way with KK only affecting mortal ki would be the best explanation super can provide.

[TheMikado]

^ the problem is we a making up a ton of scenarios just to make things fit.
We had the two base theory
The exponential theory
The SSB less than 10% Beerus theory
And now the base Kaioken theory

We have to keep inventing things every episode just to make sense of the current and previous episodes
This doesn't make anyone's theory more valid than another because it could be anything at this point.

[Birusu16]

Look nobody here invented the 10% Rageta statistic. That was the writers doing. We didn't make this numbers. We are responding to them because some of us enjoy the mathematics behind them. Frieza didn't surpass any limits he trained for 6 months and gets massively stronger. There was never a limit on Freeza. even Vegeta only trained for a few months.

I don't care if that was the writers. It was a throwaway line that hasn't been brought back up since. Do you really think they're sitting here writing these episodes thinking gee how can we make Goku stronger and have it fit wit the line Beerus said about him using 10% of his power?

Like I said before, if you wanna sit here and complain about power levels not making sense and trying to apply arbitrary numbers that don't hold any weight at this point then go right ahead. The characters are as strong as they need to be at this point. The only thing that will remain the same is the Gods of Destruction and their attendants remaining at the top for now.

[TheMikado]

So now we have an argument that SSB is less than 10% of Beerus????? Yet Rageta gets to this this level??

That would just confirm my thoughts that the 10% line is something a Vegeta fanboy in the writing staff inserted without even thinking about the potential consequences or perhaps they just didn't know at the time, Goku would be using 10x Kaio-ken later on?

We have the castle and tree argument overtaking the 6-10-15 scale when RoF said that they could probably take Beerus together which Toriyama had more direct involvement in anyway. So we are supposed to believe the show instead eventhough Beerus is happy they are strong enough to be his playthings in Super.

This is the Super power levels thread after all. It makes sense to weight material from the show higher than the material from the movies. It just means in the movies Goku was indeed 60% of Beerus' power, but in Super he almost certainly was not just like they changed things like the location of the Birthday party etc.

This is even further splitting the schools of thoughts here and I guess that means no one in universe 6 is God tier except Hit and all that power compared to Beerus stuff from the BoG arc has been retconned?

Seems that way. First time that we get a confirmed case of Toriyama changing his mind about the strengths of characters compared to one another, as the plot progresses, like he said back in an old interview.

He happened to think that SSG made Goku not far off from Beerus, but now with more stories being told, he wants things to develop differently, so he had to bloat Beerus' power even more, because he doesn't want him surpassed just yet.

Excellent post and I think I'm just going to roll with this. The narrative now dictates the power levels where previously the power levels would dictate the narrative.

[buutenks]

So i watched the ep, seems it is a x10 boost.

As for why goku didnt ko hit in one hit(lol), because hit was hiding his power.

Seems next ep he goes full power and can hold his own vs ssjb+kkx10.. So basically Hit is one OP hitman lol. No wonder he never failed to kill someone...

[Sora Saiyan]

I can't see KK only increasing base strength, if Goku went from an 8 to a 9 with KKx10 why the hell was he way to fast for Hit with only a standard KK? That logic would mean that Goku got a hell of a lot faster by increasing by like 0.1-2 on the god scale. After the first KK boost gave Goku such a notable increase it should be almost impossible to argue that it was just increasing his base power. Hopefully the manga keeps it st a normal KK though, as a x10 seems like way too much.

Disagree, KK being only multiplier on base works perfectly here. Also if you take the scale as not linear but expontential or even making gain much more impressive the higher you get on god scale, it makes perfect sense. Yeah hopefully manga keep it just regular kk increase.

Anyway divine ki and mortal ki being seprated and working on different way with KK only affecting mortal ki would be the best explanation super can provide.

Why was Beerus so amazed by a regular Kaioken then? Itd be more like Beerus to say it wasn't that big of an improvement. End of the day Goku adding twice his base speed onto his SSJB form would be so minuscule that it wouldn't amaze Beerus to the point where he looked panicked after a regular KK, and it wouldn't make Goku totally invisible to Hit. Showing off normal KK as special as it did was what ruined this theory for me, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

[apex_pretador]

Look nobody here invented the 10% Rageta statistic. That was the writers doing. We didn't make this numbers. We are responding to them because some of us enjoy the mathematics behind them. Frieza didn't surpass any limits he trained for 6 months and gets massively stronger. There was never a limit on Freeza. even Vegeta only trained for a few months.

That was four months.

Also, I still gpo by Rageta didn't push beerus to 10% because:

Goku (SSG, FP) >> Goku SSG (initial) >>> Goku (everyone's ki) >> Rageta

IMO, the rageta pushing beerus to 10% is as true as SSG goku pushing beerus to 100%.
Also, the 10% statement is incredibly vague.