Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'll stick with the 6-10-15 scale.

Goku can't use Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue for long (he said that he doesn't have much time left), and after that, his body will be damaged & tired. Kaio-ken also damages the body & drains the user's ki constantly, and Goku said that this technique is currently incomplete, so even if Goku has become an 80, I don't think he can use this power to its full extend. It's like Super Saiyan compared with a Super Saiyan that has mastered the form, except that the gap is even bigger since KKSSB gives much more strain to the body. SSB Goku is stronger than Hit, yet Hit can survive hits from KKx10SSB Goku.

On the other hand, we have no idea what kind of techniques Beerus knows since we've never seen him fighting seriously. Whis is skilled enough for his body to move on its own, making him capable of avoiding stronger attacks, and he said that Beerus is also capable of this but hasn't mastered it yet, so we know at least that much.

So yeah, maybe Goku can bring forth battle power greater than Beerus, and even Whis. But that doesn't mean that he can beat them. Battle powers aren't always everything.

[Sora Saiyan]

Did anybody else notice that Goku has gotten that fast that he was still moving when Hit froze time? Surely that shouldn't be possible, but it's clearly shown that he's moving with the frozen background. That's an impressive feat.

[ssbgoku]

I can't see KK only increasing base strength, if Goku went from an 8 to a 9 with KKx10 why the hell was he way to fast for Hit with only a standard KK? That logic would mean that Goku got a hell of a lot faster by increasing by like 0.1-2 on the god scale. After the first KK boost gave Goku such a notable increase it should be almost impossible to argue that it was just increasing his base power. Hopefully the manga keeps it st a normal KK though, as a x10 seems like way too much.

Disagree, KK being only multiplier on base works perfectly here. Also if you take the scale as not linear but expontential or even making gain much more impressive the higher you get on god scale, it makes perfect sense. Yeah hopefully manga keep it just regular kk increase.

Anyway divine ki and mortal ki being seprated and working on different way with KK only affecting mortal ki would be the best explanation super can provide.

Why was Beerus so amazed by a regular Kaioken then? Itd be more like Beerus to say it wasn't that big of an improvement. End of the day Goku adding twice his base speed onto his SSJB form would be so minuscule that it wouldn't amaze Beerus to the point where he looked panicked after a regular KK, and it wouldn't make Goku totally invisible to Hit. Showing off normal KK as special as it did was what ruined this theory for me, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

Sure you can think as you wish. I don't see KK affecting only mortal ki as problem with beerus being impressed but rather even small gain over already overhelming ssb power make goku dangerously close to beerus so that why he got nerve and same with champa.

[TheMikado]

Look nobody here invented the 10% Rageta statistic. That was the writers doing. We didn't make this numbers. We are responding to them because some of us enjoy the mathematics behind them. Frieza didn't surpass any limits he trained for 6 months and gets massively stronger. There was never a limit on Freeza. even Vegeta only trained for a few months.

That was four months.

Also, I still gpo by Rageta didn't push beerus to 10% because:

Goku (SSG, FP) >> Goku SSG (initial) >>> Goku (everyone's ki) >> Rageta

IMO, the rageta pushing beerus to 10% is as true as SSG goku pushing beerus to 100%.
Also, the 10% statement is incredibly vague.

So you're saying we shouldn't believe anything Beerus says because he is a chronic lying? Or are we selectively decided what we choose to believe as far as what is stated in universe?

[TheMikado]

Sure you can think as you wish. I don't see KK affecting only mortal ki as problem with beerus being impressed but rather even small gain over already overhelming ssb power make goku dangerously close to beerus so that why he got nerve and same with champa.

It really depends on the multiplier. If SSB is a x100 over base then in the scenario it only boosted him 1% for each level of Kaioken. A 1% boost isn't really something to get panicked over especially when your technique has a 90% chance of failing or killing you.

[Desassina]

Hey guys, I was just wondering if 6/10/15 could be a special date for Akira Toriyama when he mentioned those, like Resurrection of Freeza's release, or something. I'm just being lazy, because I could check it, but there are more special occasions.

[Birusu16]

I'll stick with the 6-10-15 scale.

Goku can't use Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue for long (he said that he doesn't have much time left), and after that, his body will be damaged & tired. Kaio-ken also damages the body & drains the user's ki constantly, and Goku said that this technique is currently incomplete, so even if Goku has become an 80, I don't think he can use this power to its full extend. It's like Super Saiyan compared with a Super Saiyan that has mastered the form, except that the gap is even bigger since KKSSB gives much more strain to the body. SSB Goku is stronger than Hit, yet Hit can survive hits from KKx10SSB Goku.

On the other hand, we have no idea what kind of techniques Beerus knows since we've never seen him fighting seriously. Whis is skilled enough for his body to move on its own, making him capable of avoiding stronger attacks, and he said that Beerus is also capable of this but hasn't mastered it yet, so we know at least that much.

So yeah, maybe Goku can bring forth battle power greater than Beerus, and even Whis. But that doesn't mean that he can beat them. Battle powers aren't always everything.

Except nothing suggests Goku gains battle power greater than Beerus and Whis in the episode, which he should if that scale was still reliable in anyway. As he'd go from 6 to 60 based on that scale (and this is provided he remained a stagnant 6 since BoGs) and that definitely wasn't the case considering even Hit could still tank attacks from Goku at that point and such an increase would make Goku more than 5 times more powerful than Beerus and more powerful than Whis and that most certainly isn't the case.

The only way that scale makes sense is if you look at those numbers like a tier and to reach the next tier (number) you need to power-up a great deal (i.e. KK x10) in order to do so. Draconic brought this up a few pages back.

Trying to make sense out of this is pointless. Characters are as powerful as they need to be right now.

[TheMikado]

Trying to make sense out of this is pointless. Characters are as powerful as they need to be right now.

^think that's the conclusion everyone should come to, but I don't believe that is a good thing either.

[ssbgoku]

Sure you can think as you wish. I don't see KK affecting only mortal ki as problem with beerus being impressed but rather even small gain over already overhelming ssb power make goku dangerously close to beerus so that why he got nerve and same with champa.

It really depends on the multiplier. If SSB is a x100 over base then in the scenario it only boosted him 1% for each level of Kaioken. A 1% boost isn't really something to get panicked over especially when your technique has a 90% chance of failing or killing you.

Well 1or 2% would make difference at least when you are close to top on ladder. It just makes more difference the higher you get to.

I will stick to kk affecting only base and being added to overall overhelming ssb power. ALso yes, it is worth of that shit when you are Saiyan and only think about getting stronger and suprassing your limits by all means available

[Desassina]

I like the sum of power increases over base as well, since the auras didn't blend, but got added to each other.

[TheMikado]

Sure you can think as you wish. I don't see KK affecting only mortal ki as problem with beerus being impressed but rather even small gain over already overhelming ssb power make goku dangerously close to beerus so that why he got nerve and same with champa.

It really depends on the multiplier. If SSB is a x100 over base then in the scenario it only boosted him 1% for each level of Kaioken. A 1% boost isn't really something to get panicked over especially when your technique has a 90% chance of failing or killing you.

Well 1or 2% would make difference at least when you are close to top on ladder. It just makes more difference the higher you get to.

I will stick to kk affecting only base and being added to overall overhelming ssb power. ALso yes, it is worth of that shit when you are Saiyan and only think about getting stronger and suprassing your limits by all means available

If that's the case he should have been working on it as a FSSJ all these years ago and maybe how could have beat cell easily.

[Sora Saiyan]

]Sure you can think as you wish. I don't see KK affecting only mortal ki as problem with beerus being impressed but rather even small gain over already overhelming ssb power make goku dangerously close to beerus so that why he got nerve and same with champa.

It's not just Beerus though, it's the showing. Beerus was so impressed he wondered why he didn't use it when he fought him before, and then it wouldnot have been enough to put him anywhere near Beerus if it was just adding base as this was just a normal KK. Again it's his showings with normal KK that makes me think it's much more than just increasing his base power, which is pretty much a non factor at this point. With x10 he was even able to move faster than Hit during time leap which should be impossible. With just his base forms speed increased by 10x that should not be able to do anything like that.
If Goku had 1000 speed in SSJB and only 1 in base, but increased to 10 with KKx10, how could he move through frozen time by adding that onto his SSJB form. He would go from 1000 to 1010. That's not a difference which could give such a huge feat when he was shown to be totally frozen before as a SSJB. It would be like a 0.01% increase in speed.

[TheMikado]

^ exactly, the reason we keep talking about numbers is because mathematically we expect different behaviors. A sudden 10% increase in speed shouldn't be enough to completely over come a time shift. It should slow his movements by 10% which wouldn't be enough to overcome something that. It would need to be a total magnitude or factor fold increase for that to work as stated.

[buutenks]

Seems, it is impossible to tell how many times strong one is than the other ^^

But then, android cell saga and buu saga was also mostly a guessing game, tho there you didnt had statements like10% or 6/10/16 scale etc.

[Desassina]

Is no one going to pick at the pickers wanting math in Dragon Ball to be gone when their reasons are math based as well?

[ssbgoku]

I like the sum of power increases over base as well, since the auras didn't blend, but got added to each other.

Exactly, another good point showing that it could matter.

If that's the case he should have been working on it as a FSSJ all these years ago and maybe how could have beat cell easily.

Of course, but then Akira just thrown away idea of Kaioken. Also back then increase even x4( I assume x10 would be too dangerous) over base would be miniscule difference not enough to matter like

Perfect cell(was close to two times as powerfull as fpssj goku) - 100
fpssj kaioken - 54
fpssj - 50
base - 1

The gap between characters and the high they are up on power level ladder is what affect how small difference gain like 1% matter or not.

]Sure you can think as you wish. I don't see KK affecting only mortal ki as problem with beerus being impressed but rather even small gain over already overhelming ssb power make goku dangerously close to beerus so that why he got nerve and same with champa.

It's not just Beerus though, it's the showing. Beerus was so impressed he wondered why he didn't use it when he fought him before, and then it wouldnot have been enough to put him anywhere near Beerus if it was just adding base as this was just a normal KK. Again it's his showings with normal KK that makes me think it's much more than just increasing his base power, which is pretty much a non factor at this point. With x10 he was even able to move faster than Hit during time leap which should be impossible. With just his base forms speed increased by 10x that should not be able to do anything like that.
If Goku had 1000 speed in SSJB and only 1 in base, but increased to 10 with KKx10, how could he move through frozen time by adding that onto his SSJB form. He would go from 1000 to 1010. That's not a difference which could give such a huge feat when he was shown to be totally frozen before as a SSJB. It would be like a 0.01% increase in speed.

Sometimes even small difference, gain decide about winner, especially when both of them are ridiculous strong/powerfull and fast. It seems Akira is just going this route while this big hype and great flashing effect are only to show how small increase since 8 at god scale make such big difference.

EDIT: Also while I agree that god scale is more like tier then actually numbers and this whole 15/10/6 god scale would be retconned then still it doesn't explain how hit would be able to even surivive something which should be completely slaughter from guy who is 10 times stronger then him. Like wtf, it is not even funny when hit had trouble with ssb goku. That why I will not accept kaioken multiplying just ssb power, it is just plain ridiculous. If hit was being slaughtered and badly beaten with suriving only on luck due to goku exagerrating himself too much and loosing kaioken(body pain) then it could work.

[TheMikado]

^ I understand why you feel it can't be a full sum of the SSG form but when you have his speed increase now full factors of increase but his power doesn't, an actual 10% increase makes no sense. The factor of the speed needed to overcome the time speed would HAVE to be several factors faster not just a 10% increase its like a car going 100 mph vs you running. Even if you increase your speed 10% you aren't going to overtake that car unless you mathematically run 10x faster. In this scenario running at 10 miles per hour a 10% increase still puts you at11mph vs the 100 from a x10 increase. The time skip ability was so far past Goku to the point where he was essentially standing still that a 10% increase in speed would not nearly be enough to overcome or compensate so it would have to be a multiple factor increase.

[ssbgoku]

^ I understand why you feel it can be a full sum of the SSG form but when you have his speed increase now full factors of increase but his power an actual 10% increase it makes no sense. The factor of the speed needed to overcome the time speed would HAVE to be several factors faster not just a 10% increase its like a car going 100 mph vs you running. Even if you increase your speed 10% you aren't going to overtake that car unless you mathematically run 10x faster. In this scenario running at 10 miles per hour a 10% increase still puts you at11mph vs the 100 from a x10 increase. The time skip ability was so far past Goku to the point where he was essentially standing still that a 10% increase in speed would not nearly be enough to overcome or compensate so it would have to be a multiple factor increase.

hmm good point, but that only if we consider goku's speed being far inferior to hit's time leap technique and I rather see as close one.

Also your example seems wrong to me, as goku was close to hit in speed and power. Like goku would be 82 and hit would be just 85. Base goku being 0.4 just multiplying it by 10 give us 4. Still 86 > 85. I just don't see big gap between them. Also super is more about technique > power so Hit would be close to ssb and still weaker in raw power but due to his speed and time leap technique he can put down anynone who isn't god of destruction(enough gap advantage) or whis/vados.

Either that or technique being incomplete would only multiply one of goku's stats and then it would be speed. I am even able to consider kk increasing only strength, speed and potency of ki but not pl. I don't want to act as supperior who knows everything just trying to make sense out of it.

[Marlowe89]

Just watched the subbed version of the episode, and I stand by the "Kaioken only improves base ki" theory more than ever now. There was no indication in the episode that Hit can sense Goku's godly ki/power, only his base ki and its multiplication. Also, the wording of the subs only implied that Goku was combining his Kaioken strength with his SSB strength, not using the multiplier for godly ki. Even Vegeta seemed irritated at best that Goku was "a step" ahead of him - I think his reaction (and everyone else's) would have been much more severe if Goku actually powered up to the strength of 10 SSB Gokus.

Honestly, the idea that Goku became that much stronger with Kaioken alone simply doesn't add up to me.

Again it's his showings with normal KK that makes me think it's much more than just increasing his base power, which is pretty much a non factor at this point.

You're assuming the strength of Goku's base power is a non-factor at this point, which may not be the case. If we assume that his base/SS has progressed to the point where he can reach at least 1/20th the strength of SSG/SSB on his own, then a 10x increase in base powers would be approximately half the strength of SSB (or at least close to half), which is more than enough to make SSB Goku substantially faster and stronger than before. Even if we're harsh with these numbers and assume that a non-SSB Goku could only reach 1/30th of his godly power, a multiplied boost of that number would still be significant.

I can see SSB + half-SSB strength being enough to allow Goku to move in Hit's time-lapse, considering how enormously powerful God Goku already is.

[LightBing]

Just going by Herms summary is enough for me to call the Kaioken multiplying only base idea, wrong. Vegeta goes out of his way to explain why Goku never used Kaioken with Super Saiyan, yet he forgot to add this essential information. Everybody knows how Kaioken works, if it changed they had to tell us.

Plus this is also in Herms summary: "Goku explains that the Kaio-Ken is a technique which Kaio taught to him long ago: it multiplies one’s power, speed, and various other fighting abilities. ".

I stand by how contradictory it is for Goku to go x10. When he might have died just by trying the technique. The higher the multiplier, the higher the toll on the body. I'll hold on the idea that the x10 was a mindless hyping tool, which wasn't in Mr.Toriyama's notes and that the Kaioken should be only x2.
That would still make the 6-10-15 scale possible, since the Kaioken is a technique with clear drawbacks.

Still, currently the 6-10-15 scale can't work. It's actually not that weird if the author abandoned it. He didn't know there would be more Dragon Ball after BoG, it's very probable he change his mind.