Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

Just going by Herms summary is enough for me to call the Kaioken multiplying only base idea, wrong. Vegeta goes out of his way to explain why Goku never used Kaioken with Super Saiyan, yet he forgot to add this essential information. Everybody knows how Kaioken works, if it changed they had to tell us.

Plus this is also in Herms summary: "Goku explains that the Kaio-Ken is a technique which Kaio taught to him long ago: it multiplies one’s power, speed, and various other fighting abilities. ".

I stand by how contradictory it is for Goku to go x10. When he might have died just by trying the technique. The higher the multiplier, the higher the toll on the body. I'll hold on the idea that the x10 was a mindless hyping tool, which wasn't in Mr.Toriyama's notes and that the Kaioken should be only x2.
That would still make the 6-10-15 scale possible, since the Kaioken is a technique with clear drawbacks.

Still, currently the 6-10-15 scale can't work. It's actually not that weird if the author abandoned it. He didn't know there would be more Dragon Ball after BoG, it's very probable he change his mind.

I will stick to KK affecting base only although. Even if we went your route. 10% beerus power at least is still intact wether we like it or not. ssb Goku/vegeta > 10% beerus

10x kaioken ssb goku >100% beerus, it can't be otherwise unless kaioken is not multiplying ki or only affecting certain physical attributes of one's body

[Birusu16]

It certainly can be otherwise considering Toriyama just came out and shot the idea that Goku will surpass Beerus anytime soon straight in the foot, so he certainly isn't above Beerus with KK x10.

Not to mention Beerus didn't even care much about it in the episode. Merely being mildly surprised about it and annoyed at the fact that he didn't use it on him earlier. And we also have Hit tanking hits from it who in turn is implied to be drastically weaker than Champa based on the summary of episode 40 saying Champa is getting ready to destroy his team for losing.

This is the exact reason they threw out power levels to begin with. Because people would get far too hung up on meaningless numbers.

[ssbgoku]

It certainly can be otherwise considering Toriyama just came out and shot the idea that Goku will surpass Beerus anytime soon straight in the foot, so he certainly isn't above Beerus with KK x10.

Not to mention Beerus didn't even care much about it in the episode. Merely being mildly surprised about it and annoyed at the fact that he didn't use it on him earlier. And we also have Hit tanking hits from it who in turn is implied to be drastically weaker than Champa based on the summary of episode 40 saying Champa is getting ready to destroy his team for losing.

This is the exact reason they threw out power levels to begin with. Because people would get far too hung up on meaningless numbers.

or that just means KK only affect base power so kkx10 ssb goku would be at the most 9 and kkx20 ssb goku would be like 9.4 at the most which is still below champa and beerus.

[TheMikado]

So now looking at this again I can get with the base theory, but this makes even less sense because the Old Kai is saying that SSJ is much more stressful on the body and drains stamina. But the last episode we see Goku say that SSB really drains his stamina which also was the whole reason they were using SSJ in the first place. It seems SSJ puts even less strain and stamina drain so they should have been able to do it. Especially when SSB is STILL using the SSJ transformation, just with God Ki. If it only affects base Ki anyway it seems like SSJ + x10 Kaioken would be a nice intermediate boost and they should have been able to do this since FSSJ.

[TheMikado]

It certainly can be otherwise considering Toriyama just came out and shot the idea that Goku will surpass Beerus anytime soon straight in the foot, so he certainly isn't above Beerus with KK x10.

Not to mention Beerus didn't even care much about it in the episode. Merely being mildly surprised about it and annoyed at the fact that he didn't use it on him earlier. And we also have Hit tanking hits from it who in turn is implied to be drastically weaker than Champa based on the summary of episode 40 saying Champa is getting ready to destroy his team for losing.

This is the exact reason they threw out power levels to begin with. Because people would get far too hung up on meaningless numbers.

They aren't meaningless. The fan base didn't invent the numbers and as I have said before when your ENTIRE first arcs surround the fact of people getting MASSIVE power gains in very short time periods unprecedented to this extreme level in the history of all Dragonball series since the Nameck saga people want to know why and by how much. You can't have 6 or 7 major characters getting hundreds of times stronger all of a sudden and not expect fans who follow it every week and have been for 20 years to just sit back and be grateful for whatever you give them and not question it. We aren't all sheep, we have different priorities in this series and that's ok.

[Birusu16]

It certainly can be otherwise considering Toriyama just came out and shot the idea that Goku will surpass Beerus anytime soon straight in the foot, so he certainly isn't above Beerus with KK x10.

Not to mention Beerus didn't even care much about it in the episode. Merely being mildly surprised about it and annoyed at the fact that he didn't use it on him earlier. And we also have Hit tanking hits from it who in turn is implied to be drastically weaker than Champa based on the summary of episode 40 saying Champa is getting ready to destroy his team for losing.

This is the exact reason they threw out power levels to begin with. Because people would get far too hung up on meaningless numbers.

or that just means KK only affect base power so kkx10 ssb goku would be at the most 9 and kkx20 ssb goku would be like 9.4 at the most which is still below champa and beerus.

I don't agree with that theory for reasons already stated by LightBing and Sora Saiyan.

And this still wouldn't work for the people who believe Goku's base was equal or close to his SSJG form (i.e. a 6).

The best and most reasonable conclusion at this point is that the writers don't care. The characters are as strong as they need to be. It's as simple as that. The only thing that remains stagnant are the Gods of Destruction and Attendants remaining at the top of the food chain. Anything else you have to come up with ridiculous theory after ridiculous theory in order to try and make it fit. None of which is confirmed to be correct. We just went through this with the whole two base theory thing.

It certainly can be otherwise considering Toriyama just came out and shot the idea that Goku will surpass Beerus anytime soon straight in the foot, so he certainly isn't above Beerus with KK x10.

Not to mention Beerus didn't even care much about it in the episode. Merely being mildly surprised about it and annoyed at the fact that he didn't use it on him earlier. And we also have Hit tanking hits from it who in turn is implied to be drastically weaker than Champa based on the summary of episode 40 saying Champa is getting ready to destroy his team for losing.

This is the exact reason they threw out power levels to begin with. Because people would get far too hung up on meaningless numbers.

They aren't meaningless. The fan base didn't invent the numbers and as I have said before when your ENTIRE first arcs surround the fact of people getting MASSIVE power gains in very short time periods unprecedented to this extreme level in the history of all Dragonball series since the Nameck saga people want to know why and by how much. You can't have 6 or 7 major characters getting hundreds of times stronger all of a sudden and not expect fans who follow it every week and have been for 20 years to just sit back and be grateful for whatever you give them and not question it. We aren't all sheep, we have different priorities in this series and that's ok.

They are meaningless because I'm pretty sure the writers aren't sitting there thinking how they can make certain things fit with one insignificant number. They do things the way they want to do them regardless of whether it fits or not and in that context the numbers are meaningless.

[TheMikado]

The best and most reasonable conclusion at this point is that the writers don't care. The characters are as strong as they need to be. It's as simple as that. The only thing that remains stagnant are the Gods of Destruction and Attendants remaining at the top of the food chain. Anything else you have to come up with ridiculous theory after ridiculous theory in order to try and make it fit. None of which is confirmed to be correct. We just went through this with the whole two base theory thing.

This is one thing I absolutely agree with you on. I believe this sentiment 100% but people who enjoyed this aspect of the Dragonball series you can't expect them to be happy with this in Super?

They are meaningless because I'm pretty sure the writers aren't sitting there thinking how they can make certain things fit with one insignificant number. They do things the way they want to do them regardless of whether it fits or not and in that context the numbers are meaningless.

Agree with this too and the are meaningless in that context but there are lots of people who did care and enjoy that aspect of the series as evident by this 200+ page thread on Super power levels alone. I just think all this does a disservice to the fans of the franchise who enjoyed this aspect by not treating it with the sincerity and reverence we would hope they would.

[apex_pretador]

Just watched the subbed version of the episode, and I stand by the "Kaioken only improves base ki" theory more than ever now. There was no indication in the episode that Hit can sense Goku's godly ki/power, only his base ki and its multiplication.

There is no "base ki" to be sensed when goku is SSB.
If goku suddenly became sensable, then everyone would've made a big deal out of it.

[TheMikado]

Just watched the subbed version of the episode, and I stand by the "Kaioken only improves base ki" theory more than ever now. There was no indication in the episode that Hit can sense Goku's godly ki/power, only his base ki and its multiplication.

There is no "base ki" to be sensed when goku is SSB.
If goku suddenly became sensable, then everyone would've made a big deal out of it.

So you think Kaioken multipled on his entire God level Ki?

[Marlowe89]

There is no "base ki" to be sensed when goku is SSB.
If goku suddenly became sensable, then everyone would've made a big deal out of it.

As Whis flatly said during their training, Goku wouldn't be sensable at all if he didn't let his ki leak out - so it's not just because he uses godly ki that most of the characters are unable to sense him. Therefore, I don't think we should use "everyone else" as a benchmark for the question of whether Goku was multiplying his godly ki.

There is still no indication that Hit can sense godly ki, so he likely wouldn't know if it was being multiplied.

[apex_pretador]

Just watched the subbed version of the episode, and I stand by the "Kaioken only improves base ki" theory more than ever now. There was no indication in the episode that Hit can sense Goku's godly ki/power, only his base ki and its multiplication.

There is no "base ki" to be sensed when goku is SSB.
If goku suddenly became sensable, then everyone would've made a big deal out of it.

So you think Kaioken multipled on his entire God level Ki?

No , that's absurd.
I know beerus is OP , but he's not like 20x of SSG (BoG). He should be at best 5-6x SSG from BoG.

Also, 6-10-15 is not a power level, it WAS (not is, but was) just a comparison from what AT felt after seeing the fight between 70% beerus and goku. He didn't know that beerus was lying (He said himself that he never plans things).

There is no "base ki" to be sensed when goku is SSB.
If goku suddenly became sensable, then everyone would've made a big deal out of it.

As Whis flatly said during their training, Goku wouldn't sensable if he didn't let his ki leak out - so it's not just because he uses godly ki that most of the characters are unable to sense him. Therefore, I don't think we should use "everyone else" as a benchmark for the question of whether Goku was multiplying his godly ki.

There is still no indication that Hit can sense godly ki, so he likely wouldn't know if it was being multiplied.

I think Kaioken thing implies that he can sense god ki.
And it is flat-out stated several times that only gods can sense god ki, and vegeta & then goku , become able to sense godki during training.
Base goku is shown searching for kaioshin later.

[Marlowe89]

And it is flat-out stated several times that only gods can sense god ki, and vegeta & then goku , become able to sense godki during training.

That's exactly my point though. Goku and Vegeta required special training to be able to sense godly ki. Nobody else could do it except gods themselves.

Hit never went through that training, as far as we know. The Kaioken thing, to me, implies that he was only sensing a multiplication of Goku's normal ki; he was surprised because of the multiplication in itself.

[apex_pretador]

And it is flat-out stated several times that only gods can sense god ki, and vegeta & then goku , become able to sense godki during training.

That's exactly my point though. Goku and Vegeta required special training to be able to sense godly ki. Nobody else could do it except gods themselves.

Hit never went through that training, as far as we know.

but SSB doesn't contain any "non-god" ki. It is all 100% god ki.

Ans we don't know what hit went through, do we?

[Marlowe89]

but SSB doesn't contain any "non-god" ki. It is all 100% god ki.

But how do we know that? Presumably, the entire reason that SSB/SSGSS is slightly stronger than SSG is because Goku managed to combine the power of his Super Saiyan form (non-godly ki) with the power of Super Saiyan God (godly ki).

And I'm aware that godly ki can't be sensed, I'm saying that the reason most characters are unable to sense his regular ki is because he doesn't let that ki leak out as Whis clarified when he trained them to become non-senseable.

[TheMikado]

but SSB doesn't contain any "non-god" ki. It is all 100% god ki.

But how do we know that? Presumably, the entire reason that SSB/SSGSS is slightly stronger than SSG is because Goku managed to combine the power of his Super Saiyan form (non-godly ki) with the power of Super Saiyan God (godly ki).

Right Hit was sensing something and the multiplication of it, you can have it both ways.

[apex_pretador]

but SSB doesn't contain any "non-god" ki. It is all 100% god ki.

But how do we know that? Presumably, the entire reason that SSB/SSGSS is slightly stronger than SSG is because Goku managed to combine the power of his Super Saiyan form (non-godly ki) with the power of Super Saiyan God (godly ki).

And I'm aware that godly ki can't be sensed, I'm saying that the reason most characters are unable to sense his regular ki is because he holds it within his body as Whis clarified.

but it was stated that goku's ki was gone entirely when he transformed to SSB, atleast in freeza battle, and he's never shown any indication of being sensed even a little.

However, if he is able to be sensed a little (as you say), then atleast krillin would've made a note of that, if not anyone else.

SSB is stronger than SSG due to the same reason SS2 is stronger than SS, because it is a stronger transformation. Also, is it ever said that SSB is only "slightly" stronger than SSG?

[TheMikado]

I don't have an answer but you can't say the Kaioken only applies to base Ki and then say that he has no base Ki at all in SSB at all. It's one or the other and can't be both.

[Marlowe89]

but it was stated that goku's ki was gone entirely when he transformed to SSB, atleast in freeza battle, and he's never shown any indication of being sensed even a little.

However, if he is able to be sensed a little (as you say), then atleast krillin would've made a note of that, if not anyone else.

Again, Whis flat-out stated that normal ki can't be sensed either if Goku and Vegeta don't let it leak out. He said this during their training.

So Krillin being unable to sense any of Goku's ki does not imply that his SSB form doesn't retain some of his normal ki.

[apex_pretador]

but it was stated that goku's ki was gone entirely when he transformed to SSB, atleast in freeza battle, and he's never shown any indication of being sensed even a little.

However, if he is able to be sensed a little (as you say), then atleast krillin would've made a note of that, if not anyone else.

Again, Whis flat-out stated that normal ki can't be sensed either if Goku and Vegeta don't let it leak out. He said this during their training.

So Krillin being unable to sense any of Goku's ki does not imply that his SSB form doesn't incorporate that ki.

but Krillin doesn't note that goku's ki can "now" be sensed in the tournament. Which means that there is a heavy implication that he didn't sense SSB goku.

Also, how does hit know that Vados-Champa are above him? It is pretty clear that they didn't ever fight, as vegeta was the first opponent to survive hit, who's "never" missed a hit in his life.

[Chiki]

The theory that SSB multiplies "base ki" (regular ki actually) doesn't work since SSB has no base ki, it can't be sensed.

So how the heck can you even begin to claim such a statement is legit when you haven't even seen the episode? In fact, where the heck did you even come up with that line if you haven't even seen the episode?

You can sit here and claim I'm wrong all you want. The facts suggest I'm right considering Vegeta flat out states he's been surpassed by a temporary power meaning temporarily surpassing is still surpassing. I could care less if you agree with me or not. And no, facts most certainly are not determined by the majority. They're determined by statistical data and factual statements. The fact that you actually believe the majority determines what is fact is astonishing.

Multiple people who watched the ep on Reddit lol.

No, you simply don't understand what a linguistic fact is. A linguistic fact concerns the meaning of a word like "stronger." We're having a debate if temporarily surpassing is being stronger than someone overall, which is a linguistic debate. Saying that Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz is plain stupid nonsense that no one agrees with.

There are no facts that suggest you're right, I'm surprised you can say that considering you haven't brought up any facts. Beerus is stronger than SSB Vegeta, therefore he can survive a 10x Kaioken SSB onslaught and take down Goku in a fight. But SSB Vegeta would get wrecked by it. Therefore, Beerus > Goku > Vegeta.