Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

I think we're all at an impasse at this point, if I'm being honest, given that there is almost NO possible solution we can go with without claiming that something official has been retconned.

For now I'll stick with the "KK multiplied Goku's base power and stacked that on top of SSB" explanation since it doesn't create as big of a mess, but I'll cling to some hope that maybe next week's episode will fully clarify the issue. I don't mind Goku still being weaker than Beerus, but SSB x 10 just sounds insanely ridiculous to me given certain contextual things in this episode and prior episodes as well - in particular I have a hard time believing that SSG Goku was that many tiers lower than Beerus during the BoG arc.

[Draconic]

We don't know if Dende changed the type of his ki, though. We only know he has the ability to sense the ki of gods. If Piccolo can't sense Beerus' ki, then he also can't sense Kaioshin's ki. He must have realized how powerful Kaioshin was using some other method.

That is true... You need a little too many assumptions to make what I said prior true. Not excluding it as a possibility, personally, but I am not going to try to argue for it until I can back it up more.

[Birusu16]

I think we're all at an impasse at this point, if I'm being honest, given that there is almost NO possible solution we can go with without claiming that something official has been retconned.

For now I'll stick with the "KK multiplied Goku's base power and stacked that on top of SSB" explanation since it doesn't create as big of a mess, but I'll cling to some hope that maybe next week's episode will fully clarify the issue. I don't mind Goku still being weaker than Beerus, but SSB x 10 just sounds insanely ridiculous to me given certain contextual things in this episode and prior episodes as well - in particular I have a hard time believing that SSG Goku was that many tiers lower than Beerus during the BoG arc.

Well it was implied by Whis when he compared Goku and Vegeta to that tiny tree and Beerus to his large castle. So it's really not that unbelievable to me.

[Draconic]

Just putting it out there that I think we should ignore the 10% line from Beerus regarding Rageta from now on and treat it as an outlier, since it's one of the biggest things that don't fall into place with anything after the BoG saga. In-universe, Beerus was lying (he did it again when he told God Goku he was going to fight at full power but took that back, so there is precedence).

[Birusu16]

Just putting it out there that I think we should ignore the 10% line from Beerus regarding Rageta from now on and treat it as an outlier, since it's one of the biggest things that don't fall into place with anything after the BoG saga. In-universe, Beerus was lying (he did it again when he told God Goku he was going to fight at full power but took that back, so there is precedence).

Agreed.

[TheMikado]

I think we're all at an impasse at this point, if I'm being honest, given that there is almost NO possible solution we can go with without claiming that something official has been retconned.

For now I'll stick with the "KK multiplied Goku's base power and stacked that on top of SSB" explanation since it doesn't create as big of a mess, but I'll cling to some hope that maybe next week's episode will fully clarify the issue. I don't mind Goku still being weaker than Beerus, but SSB x 10 just sounds insanely ridiculous to me given certain contextual things in this episode and prior episodes as well - in particular I have a hard time believing that SSG Goku was that many tiers lower than Beerus during the BoG arc.

Well it was implied by Whis when he compared Goku and Vegeta to that tiny tree and Beerus to his large castle. So it's really not that unbelievable to me.

I'm pretty sure the context of that is that they were talking about their base forms which would be true but considering Saiyans seem to have this unique ability to multiply their power by hundreds of times at will it would make them more even than that.

[Birusu16]

I think we're all at an impasse at this point, if I'm being honest, given that there is almost NO possible solution we can go with without claiming that something official has been retconned.

For now I'll stick with the "KK multiplied Goku's base power and stacked that on top of SSB" explanation since it doesn't create as big of a mess, but I'll cling to some hope that maybe next week's episode will fully clarify the issue. I don't mind Goku still being weaker than Beerus, but SSB x 10 just sounds insanely ridiculous to me given certain contextual things in this episode and prior episodes as well - in particular I have a hard time believing that SSG Goku was that many tiers lower than Beerus during the BoG arc.

Well it was implied by Whis when he compared Goku and Vegeta to that tiny tree and Beerus to his large castle. So it's really not that unbelievable to me.

I'm pretty sure the context of that is that they were talking about their base forms which would be true but considering Saiyans seem to have this unique ability to multiply their power by hundreds of times at will it would make them more even than that.

I take it to mean their overall ability as it fits much better with KK x10 Goku not being above Beerus.

[Chiki]

Um... they're disagreeing with you. LOL

You said Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz. They're saying no. Wow lol.

No, he didn't.
His point from the start was that surpassing someone with the Kaio-ken counts as straight up surpassing someone, thus he's in agreement with the two quoted posts.
He didn't address your Raditz example as can be seen further up on this page.

Did you read his previous posts? I said this:

Start of DBZ Piccolo would get owned by Raditz. But Piccolo charging the Makankosappo surpasses Raditz.

This is what he said in response:

And surpass means just that, surpass. Temporarily surpassing is still surpassing.

Sure seems like he thinks Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz.

===

Some thoughts after watching the sub: seems like the 6/10/15 scale still might be true. Beerus is nervous about Goku's normal Kaioken which is x2, BEFORE he even starts multiplying it by x3, x4, and finally x10. We might just have to swallow the idea that x10 Kaioken SSB is way stronger than Whis...

I take it to mean their overall ability as it fits much better with KK x10 Goku not being above Beerus.

Beerus was nervous about Kaioken SSB Goku, before he even started x3 x4 x10 etc. Sure indicates that Goku is way above Beerus in power temporarily thanks to Kaioken.

[TheMikado]

Just putting it out there that I think we should ignore the 10% line from Beerus regarding Rageta from now on and treat it as an outlier, since it's one of the biggest things that don't fall into place with anything after the BoG saga. In-universe, Beerus was lying (he did it again when he told God Goku he was going to fight at full power but took that back, so there is precedence).

This requires the audience to make that assumption which I guess is fine but now it's begs the question of just how strong is Beerus anyway? None of his feats seem to imply he is x10 SSB heck he feats might even barely qualify him as x2 SSB at this point. I'm just not really in awe of Whis or Beerus power levels at this point.

[Draconic]

I'm pretty sure the context of that is that they were talking about their base forms which would be true but considering Saiyans seem to have this unique ability to multiply their power by hundreds of times at will it would make them more even than that.

I agree. Not to mention that after that exchange, Whis tells the Oracle Fish they shouldn't use their SSJ forms because that would be less effective than training in base, implying the SSJ forms are still consistent boosts (though not enough to help them reach the top of the tree). I think it's fair to say Whis was referring to the base forms alone when he made that comparison.

[Marlowe89]

Well it was implied by Whis when he compared Goku and Vegeta to that tiny tree and Beerus to his large castle. So it's really not that unbelievable to me.

The sentence directly after that statement implied that Whis' tree/castle analogy was referring to their base forms, since he was specifically training them to raise their strength without transforming.

But whatever, I don't really intend to argue about it. I suppose we'll see how things really are in future episodes.

[TheMikado]

it fits much better with KK x10 Goku not being above Beerus.

Yeah but taking it out of context to try to fit it into a larger narrative doesn't make sense either.
This is what happens when the audience is forced to come up with somethings. We all put different levels of importance on different pieces of evidence to support our claims.

[Birusu16]

Um... they're disagreeing with you. LOL

You said Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz. They're saying no. Wow lol.

No, he didn't.
His point from the start was that surpassing someone with the Kaio-ken counts as straight up surpassing someone, thus he's in agreement with the two quoted posts.
He didn't address your Raditz example as can be seen further up on this page.

Did you read his previous posts? I said this:

Start of DBZ Piccolo would get owned by Raditz. But Piccolo charging the Makankosappo surpasses Raditz.

This is what he said in response:

And surpass means just that, surpass. Temporarily surpassing is still surpassing.

Sure seems like he thinks Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz.

===

Some thoughts after watching the sub: seems like the 6/10/15 scale still might be true. Beerus is nervous about Goku's normal Kaioken which is x2, BEFORE he even starts multiplying it by x3, x4, and finally x10. We might just have to swallow the idea that x10 Kaioken SSB is way stronger than Whis...

I take it to mean their overall ability as it fits much better with KK x10 Goku not being above Beerus.

Beerus was nervous about Kaioken SSB Goku, before he even started x3 x4 x10 etc. Sure indicates that Goku is way above Beerus in power temporarily thanks to Kaioken.

Not entertaining this argument with you again. I already proved why this isn't the case.

[Chiki]

Just putting it out there that I think we should ignore the 10% line from Beerus regarding Rageta from now on and treat it as an outlier, since it's one of the biggest things that don't fall into place with anything after the BoG saga. In-universe, Beerus was lying (he did it again when he told God Goku he was going to fight at full power but took that back, so there is precedence).

This requires the audience to make that assumption which I guess is fine but now it's begs the question of just how strong is Beerus anyway? None of his feats seem to imply he is x10 SSB heck he feats might even barely qualify him as x2 SSB at this point. I'm just not really in awe of Whis or Beerus power levels at this point.

Well Beerus is nervous after seeing Kaioken SSB before he starts using Kaioken x3 and x4 and finally x10, so yeah, pretty sure Goku is way above Beerus now while using Kaioken.

Not entertaining this argument with you again. I already proved why this isn't the case.

I've told you the difference between surpassing SSB Vegeta and not being able to surpass Beerus like 10 times already. x10 Kaioken SSB Goku can't defeat Beerus in combat, but he can defeat SSB Vegeta. Therefore, Beerus > Goku > Vegeta. Capiche?

[Birusu16]

Just putting it out there that I think we should ignore the 10% line from Beerus regarding Rageta from now on and treat it as an outlier, since it's one of the biggest things that don't fall into place with anything after the BoG saga. In-universe, Beerus was lying (he did it again when he told God Goku he was going to fight at full power but took that back, so there is precedence).

This requires the audience to make that assumption which I guess is fine but now it's begs the question of just how strong is Beerus anyway? None of his feats seem to imply he is x10 SSB heck he feats might even barely qualify him as x2 SSB at this point. I'm just not really in awe of Whis or Beerus power levels at this point.

Well Beerus is nervous after seeing Kaioken SSB before he starts using Kaioken x3 and x4 and finally x10, so yeah, pretty sure Goku is way above Beerus now while using Kaioken.

Not entertaining this argument with you again. I already proved why this isn't the case.

I've told you the difference between surpassing SSB Vegeta and not being able to surpass Beerus like 10 times already. x10 Kaioken SSB Goku can't defeat Beerus in combat, but he can defeat SSB Vegeta. Therefore, Beerus > Goku > Vegeta. Capiche?

And I've already explained why that is flat out wrong, but you can believe what you want. I'm done arguing with you.

[Birusu16]

it fits much better with KK x10 Goku not being above Beerus.

Yeah but taking it out of context to try to fit it into a larger narrative doesn't make sense either.
This is what happens when the audience is forced to come up with somethings. We all put different levels of importance on different pieces of evidence to support our claims.

I don't find it to be out of context at all. In fact, I find it more out of context to think he's referring to simply their base forms when making that comparison.

Either way, nobody knows for sure so it's all speculation in the end anyway.

[Draconic]

The God scale is either retconned or it was never supposed to work as literal power levels. The story, written by Toriyama after the god-scale interview, confirms Goku is not just 1.66x weaker than Beerus and the interview given after writing said story says he doesn't have plans for Goku to surpass Beerus and Whis. Beerus and Whis are still on top, 10x Kaioken or 20x (if they pull that out in the next episode) or whatever.

[Birusu16]

Just putting it out there that I think we should ignore the 10% line from Beerus regarding Rageta from now on and treat it as an outlier, since it's one of the biggest things that don't fall into place with anything after the BoG saga. In-universe, Beerus was lying (he did it again when he told God Goku he was going to fight at full power but took that back, so there is precedence).

This requires the audience to make that assumption which I guess is fine but now it's begs the question of just how strong is Beerus anyway? None of his feats seem to imply he is x10 SSB heck he feats might even barely qualify him as x2 SSB at this point. I'm just not really in awe of Whis or Beerus power levels at this point.

You can't really use feats to determine power levels in this series otherwise you get Freeza being stronger than Vegito. Feats are only good for out of universe comparisons.

[Chiki]

The God scale is either retconned or it was never supposed to work as literal power levels. The story, written by Toriyama after the god-scale interview, confirms Goku is not just 1.66x weaker than Beerus and the interview given after writing said story says he doesn't have plans for Goku to surpass Beerus and Whis. Beerus and Whis are still on top, 10x Kaioken or 20x (if they pull that out in the next episode) or whatever.

Ok, let's assume Beerus > 10x Kaioken SSB Goku.

Then why did Beerus get nervous (he looked sweaty and scared) about Kaioken SSB Goku (not x10) BEFORE he even knew that Goku could use Kaioken x3, x4, x10 etc. if Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>> Kaioken SSB Goku? Makes no sense whatsoever.

The only explanation is that Beerus is around Kaioken SSB Goku in strength, and that's why Beerus was scared. And then x10 Kaioken puts Goku way above him.

We can still take the 6-10-15 scale for granted this way, judging from Beerus's reaction it seems this is what the writers intended. So this would put SSB x10 Kaioken Goku at around 80 or 90 on the scale, which is ridiculous but oh well.

[TheMikado]

I think we're all at an impasse at this point, if I'm being honest, given that there is almost NO possible solution we can go with without claiming that something official has been retconned.

For now I'll stick with the "KK multiplied Goku's base power and stacked that on top of SSB" explanation since it doesn't create as big of a mess, but I'll cling to some hope that maybe next week's episode will fully clarify the issue. I don't mind Goku still being weaker than Beerus, but SSB x 10 just sounds insanely ridiculous to me given certain contextual things in this episode and prior episodes as well - in particular I have a hard time believing that SSG Goku was that many tiers lower than Beerus during the BoG arc.

You know looking at all this from a high level view we really are not going to get anywhere. Super is literally retconned between episodes now, it's like they let guys from this forum take turns writing each episode and what we got what serialized fan fiction with the coveted "CANON" label slapped on it.

My biggest beef with this Kaioken thing is that Goku straight up tell Hit SSB wears his stamina really bad the last episode but his episode the Kais say SSJ does that which is why he can do Kaioken now. Which contridicts him using SSJ earlier in the tournament for stamina and power saving reasons. And it's not like SSJ is the problem because he still uses the SSJ form in SSB so she should have long been able to do it. If it's simple a matter of Ki control then Goku should be able to control Ki in lower forms like Whis says if their normal Ki leaking out but for some reason they don't even bother mastering that. The Goku goes SSB Kaioken x10 out of nowhere and doesn't demolish everything so we realize it's either a 10% boost or a 1000% boost with no other way to interpret that and neither fit into the over all narrative especially when Goku has a 90% of this failing and him dying to win a tournament that he doesn't even realize matters at all.

So whose turn is it on this forum to write the next episode and when do I get my turn?