Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Draconic]

The God scale is either retconned or it was never supposed to work as literal power levels. The story, written by Toriyama after the god-scale interview, confirms Goku is not just 1.66x weaker than Beerus and the interview given after writing said story says he doesn't have plans for Goku to surpass Beerus and Whis. Beerus and Whis are still on top, 10x Kaioken or 20x (if they pull that out in the next episode) or whatever.

Ok, let's assume Beerus > 10x Kaioken SSB Goku.

Then why did Beerus get nervous (he looked sweaty and scared) about Kaioken SSB Goku (not x10) BEFORE he even knew that Goku could use Kaioken x3, x4, x10 etc. if Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>> Kaioken SSB Goku? Makes no sense whatsoever.

The only explanation is that Beerus is around Kaioken SSB Goku in strength, and that's why Beerus was scared. And then x10 Kaioken puts Goku way above him.

We can still take the 6-10-15 scale for granted this way, judging from Beerus's reaction it seems this is what the writers intended. So this would put SSB x10 Kaioken Goku at around 80 or 90 on the scale, which is ridiculous but oh well.

He flat out states he is not scared at the idea of confronting SSBx10 Goku. He wasn't scared, he was impressed that Goku: 1. Still had something up his sleeve, 2. He wanted to use that something against him.

[Birusu16]

The God scale is either retconned or it was never supposed to work as literal power levels. The story, written by Toriyama after the god-scale interview, confirms Goku is not just 1.66x weaker than Beerus and the interview given after writing said story says he doesn't have plans for Goku to surpass Beerus and Whis. Beerus and Whis are still on top, 10x Kaioken or 20x (if they pull that out in the next episode) or whatever.

Agreed. Not to mention Hit is taking punch after punch from KK x10 Goku and still getting back up (easily I might add) and seems to be relatively even with him in the preview and Champa is about to destroy his entire team in episode 40 according to the summaries meaning he's significantly stronger than Hit.

That scale can be thrown out the window to be honest or we can go with your suggestion that it works more like tiers. That's pretty much the only hope of keeping that scale reliable.

[pacz360]

Jesus people just let the 6/10/15 scale go already super pretty much retconned that shit plus with tori's comment beerus and whis champa and vados are above kaioken ssgss goku i don't know why some can't seem to grasp it.

[Draconic]

The God scale is either retconned or it was never supposed to work as literal power levels. The story, written by Toriyama after the god-scale interview, confirms Goku is not just 1.66x weaker than Beerus and the interview given after writing said story says he doesn't have plans for Goku to surpass Beerus and Whis. Beerus and Whis are still on top, 10x Kaioken or 20x (if they pull that out in the next episode) or whatever.

Agreed. Not to mention Hit is taking punch after punch from KK x10 Goku and still getting back up (easily I might add) and seems to be relatively even with him in the preview and Champa is about to destroy his entire team in episode 40 according to the summaries meaning he's significantly stronger than Hit.

That scale can be thrown out the window to be honest or we can go with your suggestion that it works more like tiers. That's pretty much the only hope of keeping that scale reliable.

Not to mention Hit is STILL not using his full "power". Next episode preview indicates he hasn't even started using his killing techniques, so Goku might need even higher levels of Kaioken to keep up.

[pacz360]

The God scale is either retconned or it was never supposed to work as literal power levels. The story, written by Toriyama after the god-scale interview, confirms Goku is not just 1.66x weaker than Beerus and the interview given after writing said story says he doesn't have plans for Goku to surpass Beerus and Whis. Beerus and Whis are still on top, 10x Kaioken or 20x (if they pull that out in the next episode) or whatever.

Ok, let's assume Beerus > 10x Kaioken SSB Goku.

Then why did Beerus get nervous (he looked sweaty and scared) about Kaioken SSB Goku (not x10) BEFORE he even knew that Goku could use Kaioken x3, x4, x10 etc. if Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>> Kaioken SSB Goku? Makes no sense whatsoever.

The only explanation is that Beerus is around Kaioken SSB Goku in strength, and that's why Beerus was scared. And then x10 Kaioken puts Goku way above him.

We can still take the 6-10-15 scale for granted this way, judging from Beerus's reaction it seems this is what the writers intended. So this would put SSB x10 Kaioken Goku at around 80 or 90 on the scale, which is ridiculous but oh well.

He flat out states he is not scared at the idea of confronting SSBx10 Goku. He wasn't scared, he was impressed that Goku: 1. Still had something up his sleeve, 2. He wanted to use that something against him.

Exactly!

[TheMikado]

Jesus people just let the 6/10/15 scale go already super pretty much retconned that shit plus with tori's comment beerus and whis champa and vados are above kaioken ssgss goku i don't know why some can't seem to grasp it.

I think people are pissed because you're going back two arcs and basically saying Oh we were just kidding guys and that bad guy you fought in desperation was actually 1000x more powerful. I mean inflating Beerus power levels for no real reason is so bogus. Imagine if they had done something like that to Cell or Frieza. Oh wait they did! So Supers done this bogus hyper enemy power level inflation to us twice now...and we could possible even get it a third time in the next episode with Hit.

[Draconic]

Jesus people just let the 6/10/15 scale go already super pretty much retconned that shit plus with tori's comment beerus and whis champa and vados are above kaioken ssgss goku i don't know why some can't seem to grasp it.

I think people are pissed because you're going back two arcs and basically saying Oh we were just kidding guys and that bad guy you fought in desperation was actually 1000x more powerful. I mean inflating Beerus power levels for no real reason is so bogus. Imagine if they had done something like that to Cell or Frieza. Oh wait they did! So Supers done this bogus hyper enemy power level inflation to us twice now...and we could possible even get it a third time in the next episode with Hit.

But Goku not only lost that fight, but we knew his opponent wasn't using his full power. Unlike the movie, there is no percentage given, so Beerus was always this powerful. They didn't inflate him anyhow. It's just that Goku STILL hasn't surpassed him, unlike in every previous arc where he surpassed the antagonist/rival by the next story. Hell, if anything it's refreshing.

[Birusu16]

Jesus people just let the 6/10/15 scale go already super pretty much retconned that shit plus with tori's comment beerus and whis champa and vados are above kaioken ssgss goku i don't know why some can't seem to grasp it.

I think people are pissed because you're going back two arcs and basically saying Oh we were just kidding guys and that bad guy you fought in desperation was actually 1000x more powerful. I mean inflating Beerus power levels for no real reason is so bogus. Imagine if they had done something like that to Cell or Frieza. Oh wait they did! So Supers done this bogus hyper enemy power level inflation to us twice now...and we could possible even get it a third time in the next episode with Hit.

The original series was susceptible to this as well. It happened with Cell. How many times did we get an indication that he was fighting at full strength and yet wasn't? 2, 3, 4? I just know it was quite a lot.

[ZombieVito]

I have no problem letting go of the 6/10/15 scale but damn does it feel wrong that Beerus only used 10% to beat even SSG Goku.

Shit is just ridiculous.

[buutenks]

I have no problem letting go of the 6/10/15 scale but damn does it not feel wrong that Beerus only used 10% to beat even SSG Goku.

Shit is just ridiculous.

That just shows how op beerus is. Also means whis and vados are true power monsters.

[apex_pretador]

Jesus people just let the 6/10/15 scale go already super pretty much retconned that shit plus with tori's comment beerus and whis champa and vados are above kaioken ssgss goku i don't know why some can't seem to grasp it.

I think people are pissed because you're going back two arcs and basically saying Oh we were just kidding guys and that bad guy you fought in desperation was actually 1000x more powerful. I mean inflating Beerus power levels for no real reason is so bogus. Imagine if they had done something like that to Cell or Frieza. Oh wait they did! So Supers done this bogus hyper enemy power level inflation to us twice now...and we could possible even get it a third time in the next episode with Hit.

Heavily suppressed beerus == 1st form freeza
powerup against vegeta == 2nd form freeza
powerup against SSG == 2nd form powered up freeza
powerup against SSG again == 2nd form FP freeza
last powerup against SSG == 3rd form freeza
implication by whis post fight == (That was not even my final form) 4th form freeza
Implication by golden freeza == 4th form freeza unknown power % (No hands)
Implication by hit == 50% final form freeza
implication by KK x10 goku == 70% Freeza

100% beerus == 100% freeza

[LightBing]

Altought I'm guilty of using the 6-10-15 in Super, we should've know it wasn't supposed to apply the moment they took out the 70% Beerus line. I actually think someone people at the time, said it was so they could make Beerus as strong as they needed.

Still the 10% Beerus against Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta, creates a contradiction. Which makes me unable to take the anime as trustworthy medium for these power debates.

Changing the subject, we finally have an explanation for the lack of Kaioken in Super Saiyan. How satisfactory is it for you guys? For me is pretty much what I thought, to dangerous to use both at the same time.

[TheMikado]

I think my primary point is that when Frieza showed up again as mecha Frieza after the main battle he didn't go, oh was was only at 5% in my final form on Namek. I'm not a fan of the ever increasing power levels of an enemy while fighting but it's way better then coming back as saying oh that thing I said about my power two arcs ago wasn't even true and Frieza specifically told us after the first transformation he had several more.

If Frieza has showed up on Earth and said he was actually 10x stronger and he just let his guard done a lot of people would be pissed because the amount of tension in that fight would have always been meaningless just like the BoG battle is now pretty much more meaning less than before and Rageta is conpletely retconned now.

[Chiki]

The God scale is either retconned or it was never supposed to work as literal power levels. The story, written by Toriyama after the god-scale interview, confirms Goku is not just 1.66x weaker than Beerus and the interview given after writing said story says he doesn't have plans for Goku to surpass Beerus and Whis. Beerus and Whis are still on top, 10x Kaioken or 20x (if they pull that out in the next episode) or whatever.

Ok, let's assume Beerus > 10x Kaioken SSB Goku.

Then why did Beerus get nervous (he looked sweaty and scared) about Kaioken SSB Goku (not x10) BEFORE he even knew that Goku could use Kaioken x3, x4, x10 etc. if Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>> Kaioken SSB Goku? Makes no sense whatsoever.

The only explanation is that Beerus is around Kaioken SSB Goku in strength, and that's why Beerus was scared. And then x10 Kaioken puts Goku way above him.

We can still take the 6-10-15 scale for granted this way, judging from Beerus's reaction it seems this is what the writers intended. So this would put SSB x10 Kaioken Goku at around 80 or 90 on the scale, which is ridiculous but oh well.

He flat out states he is not scared at the idea of confronting SSBx10 Goku. He wasn't scared, he was impressed that Goku: 1. Still had something up his sleeve, 2. He wanted to use that something against him.

He says he's not scared of confronting KAIOKEN SSB Goku, not x10.

[TheMikado]

Altought I'm guilty of using the 6-10-15 in Super, we should've know it wasn't supposed to apply the moment they took out the 70% Beerus line. I actually think someone people at the time, said it was so they could make Beerus as strong as they needed.

Still the 10% Beerus against Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta, creates a contradiction. Which makes me unable to take the anime as trustworthy medium for these power debates.

Changing the subject, we finally have an explanation for the lack of Kaioken in Super Saiyan. How satisfactory is it for you guys? For me is pretty much what I thought, to dangerous to use both at the same time.

I stated that I was totally unsatisfied with this answer.
Last episode Goku said that SSB wears really badly on his stamina and that's also why he has been using SSJ to preserve his stamina and energy. The problem is the Kais say that SSJ wears on the stamina and body badly but SSB gives them better Ki control. The reasoning in both cases is literally stamina but saying contridicting statements between just one episode. Ok fine whatever, but then they go and have it Kaioken x10 and it's like seriously??? He's still using the SSJ form and can even do a single Kaioken xSSJ because of stamina??? He's been FSSJ for years now! Then you find out it have a 90% chance of failure a killing him and you know he doesn't think this tournament matters like just fighting in the world tournament but he risks it anyway and we don't even know if it's all this for a 10% or 1000% boost because mathematically it can only be one or the other and you wonder why he didn't at least try with every other enemy threat. They to top it all off he somehow can not go use x10 Kaioken to go faster than or as fast as time itself... Just wow. They should change this to Super Fan Fiction ... And I full disclosure I already wasn't a fan of Super due to fan servicy plot and this in my opinion turned it up to 11..

[buutenks]

True beerus says nothing of kkx10 goku.

Anyways I'm sure kkx10 goku is still below beerus.

I like that there is a gap,means beerus wont become another god goku left in the dust.

After all he is the god of destruction, a being millions of years old, it shouldnt be so easy to close the gap.

And whis, this means he could be many many many times more powerful than beerus,which makes sense in a way. As an attendant and trainer of gods of destruction, he should be so high up the power meter that no god of destruction could hope to catch up, since if they did it may cause problems.

Last episode Goku said that SSB wears really badly on his stamina and that's also why he has been using SSJ to preserve his stamina and energy. The problem is the Kais say that SSJ wears on the stamina and body badly but SSB gives them better Ki control. The reasoning in both cases is literally stamina but saying contridicting statements between just one episode. Ok fine whatever, but then they go and have it Kaioken x10 and it's like seriously??? He's still using the SSJ form and can even do a single Kaioken xSSJ because of stamina??? He's been FSSJ for years now! Then you find out it have a 90% chance of failure a killing him and you know he doesn't think this tournament matters like just fighting in the world tournament but he risks it anyway and we don't even know if it's all this for a 10% or 1000% boost because mathematically it can only be one or the other and you wonder why he didn't at least try with every other enemy threat. They to top it all off he somehow can not go use x10 Kaioken to go faster than or as fast as time itself... Just wow. They should change this to Super Fan Fiction ... And I full disclosure I already wasn't a fan of Super due to fan servicy plot and this in my opinion turned it up to 11..

Goku said it takes allot of stamina to transform into that form, not the form drains my stamina.

Also, the kais said, ssjb requires one to be calm while ssj requires rage,since kaio ken you must be calm it works with ssjblue while ssj doesnt.

Also, why r you so fixed on stuff that happened 20 years ago?

Jeez man, how could toriyama predict that in 20 years he will make a new db series and goku will use kk on top of a ssj form, so he should make ssj goku use kk so some people wont complain why he didnt use it 20 years ago..

This isnt real life, where things happen due to fixed laws of nature and what not.

Its fiction, people forget, change things or add new things or make the old things new.

I really dont understand the complaints.

We have an explanation why kk wasnt used with ssj, people complain, if we didnt had any explanation people would still complain.

You must understand, this is a continuation of a series that ended 20 years ago, not all things will fit.

[Chiki]

True beerus says nothing of kkx10 goku.

Anyways I'm sure kkx10 goku is still below beerus.

I like that there is a gap,means beerus wont become another god goku left in the dust.

After all he is the god of destruction, a being millions of years old, it shouldnt be so easy to close the gap.

And whis, this means he could be many many many times more powerful than beerus,which makes sense in a way. As an attendant and trainer of gods of destruction, he should be so high up the power meter that no god of destruction could hope to catch up, since if they did it may cause problems.

If Beerus was nervous about Kaioken SSB Goku, I don't see how KKx10 is still below Beerus.

I mean, I think Beerus would win a fight, but KKx10 SSB is ridiculous.

[buutenks]

True beerus says nothing of kkx10 goku.

Anyways I'm sure kkx10 goku is still below beerus.

I like that there is a gap,means beerus wont become another god goku left in the dust.

After all he is the god of destruction, a being millions of years old, it shouldnt be so easy to close the gap.

And whis, this means he could be many many many times more powerful than beerus,which makes sense in a way. As an attendant and trainer of gods of destruction, he should be so high up the power meter that no god of destruction could hope to catch up, since if they did it may cause problems.

If Beerus was nervous about Kaioken SSB Goku, I don't see how KKx10 is still below Beerus.

I mean, I think Beerus would win a fight, but KKx10 SSB is ridiculous.

Makes no sense but that is how it is ^^.

[Chiki]

True beerus says nothing of kkx10 goku.

Anyways I'm sure kkx10 goku is still below beerus.

I like that there is a gap,means beerus wont become another god goku left in the dust.

After all he is the god of destruction, a being millions of years old, it shouldnt be so easy to close the gap.

And whis, this means he could be many many many times more powerful than beerus,which makes sense in a way. As an attendant and trainer of gods of destruction, he should be so high up the power meter that no god of destruction could hope to catch up, since if they did it may cause problems.

If Beerus was nervous about Kaioken SSB Goku, I don't see how KKx10 is still below Beerus.

I mean, I think Beerus would win a fight, but KKx10 SSB is ridiculous.

Makes no sense but that is how it is ^^.

That's why I'm considering giving up on power level discussions...

[TheMikado]

one to be calm while ssj requires rage,since kaio ken you must be calm it works with ssjblue while ssj doesnt.

He's using SSB which is just SSJ with God Ki, it still uses the rage of SSJ for the transformations. Being able to do it in SSB but not SSJ makes absolutely 0 sense whatsoever what the form is BUIlT on the from that caused him not to be able to use the ability in the first place. Our issue isn't that it doesn't fit but the writers don't even seem to be doing research within their own series or even trying. It's poor lazy writing plain and simple and that's why so many people have an issue with it. Not everyone is going to think the writing is flawless because it has a Dragonball label on it. The writing is highly flawed even within its our universe it's creating. Even within the storyline of super, even with the span of an episode he writing is flawed and inconsistent and not everyone has to be ok with that.