Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

I can't see the Kaioken x10 only multiplying his base. How many kids watching would think that's what he was doing? Especially when they never even said or implied that.

Weak argument. Do you think kids will just assume that Beerus was waaaaaaay overcompensating when he fought Rageta at 10% of his power? Especially when he never even said or implied that. You can't have it both ways.

And no, I think it's perfectly feasible that some kids would assume he was just coinciding Kaioken with SSB considering the two auras. I also think it's perfectly feasible that some kids would assume Goku temporarily surpassed Beerus with Kaioken, given Beerus' reaction.

[LightBing]

I can't see the Kaioken x10 only multiplying his base. How many kids watching would think that's what he was doing? Especially when they never even said or implied that.

Weak argument. Do you think kids will just assume that Beerus was waaaaaaay overcompensating when he fought Rageta at 10% of his power? Especially when he never even said or implied that. You can't have it both ways.

And no, I think it's perfectly feasible that some kids would assume he was just coinciding Kaioken with SSB considering the two auras.

So you're telling us Goku explained the Kaioken to Hit and for some reason left the most important piece of information. Then Vegeta further elaborate, telling us why Goku didn't use the Kaioken with regular Super Saiyan and again, the show fails to mention the base only thing. Seriously?

[Marlowe89]

So you're telling us Goku explained the Kaioken to Hit and for some reason left the most important piece of information. Then Vegeta further elaborate, telling us why Goku didn't use the Kaioken with regular Super Saiyan and again, the show fails to mention the base only thing. Seriously?

No, I'm telling you not to ignore valid possibilities and explanations on the basis of "But think of the kids!" when you have something as clear-cut as Rageta vs. 10% Beerus. What if the show's writers personally felt it was obvious that KK and SSB were coinciding as opposed to adjuncting? Authors failing to mention certain details when taking the obviousness of those details for granted is actually a pretty common mistake in writing.

The first step forward, I think, is to admit that there are multiple plausible interpretations.

[Chiki]

So you're telling us Goku explained the Kaioken to Hit and for some reason left the most important piece of information. Then Vegeta further elaborate, telling us why Goku didn't use the Kaioken with regular Super Saiyan and again, the show fails to mention the base only thing. Seriously?

No, I'm telling you not to ignore valid possibilities and explanations on the basis of "But think of the kids!" when you have something as clear-cut as Rageta vs. 10% Beerus. What if the show's writers personally felt it was obvious that KK and SSB were coinciding as opposed to adjuncting? Authors failing to mention certain details when taking the obviousness of those details for granted is actually a pretty common mistake in writing.

The first step forward, I think, is to admit that there are multiple plausible interpretations.

Agreed.

The two base theory also hasn't been proven wrong yet.

[JoeCapricorn]

It could be that Goku exceeds Beerus with his Kaio-ken... (I know I may have contradicted myself already, but I'm really just thinking with my keyboard) This may also mean that Hit exceeds Beerus as well.

But what about Whis? Maybe Beerus is at a 10, and Whis is at 150?

Or maybe we'll never know the full extent of Whis and Vados' power. I think both are neutral players in the grand scheme of things, so there's no reason they would be either an antagonist or a protagonist.

I think if the "leak" about Champa trying to destroy his Universe 6 fighters out of anger is true, we might get to see how powerful he is. Especially if he is dispatched by either Goku or Hit.

Except he doesn't. Hit is having no problem taking attacks from Goku head on without the slightest bit of trouble and he's implied to be significantly weaker than Champa seeing as the latter has him and the rest of the U6 team shaking in fear as he's about to destroy all of them for losing according to the episode 40 summary.

That's if the summary is even correct.

We've been thrown off guard before!

We'll find out for sure next week.

If it is the case that Hit cowers in fear of the almighty Champa (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA), then it might add credence to either my SSG > SSB theory (which, isn't a very good one, I admit) or the theory that Beerus was still far beyond Super Saiyan God.

Or it could be that Hit thinks Champa is really really powerful, without realizing that he might actually have a fighting chance against him.

We'll see for sure in six days!

Can I just say how exciting this all is? I watched the raw last night without reading anything on this website and I had no idea what was going to happen, it was stunning. I haven't felt that way for Dragon Ball in over 12 years.

[Bullza]

I can't see the Kaioken x10 only multiplying his base. How many kids watching would think that's what he was doing? Especially when they never even said or implied that.

Weak argument. Do you think kids will just assume that Beerus was waaaaaaay overcompensating when he fought Rageta at 10% of his power? Especially when he never even said or implied that. You can't have it both ways.

And no, I think it's perfectly feasible that some kids would assume he was just coinciding Kaioken with SSB considering the two auras. I also think it's perfectly feasible that some kids would assume Goku temporarily surpassed Beerus with Kaioken, given Beerus' reaction.

There ain't no little kid watching the show whose thinking "Ah Goku must be using his Kaioken x10 to increase his base power level but his God power has remained the same".

Beerus used 10% to easily beat Vegeta that's it. Nobody ever thought he was close to 10% Beerus anyway. Now it just appears he's further away than we initially thought.

[LightBing]

So you're telling us Goku explained the Kaioken to Hit and for some reason left the most important piece of information. Then Vegeta further elaborate, telling us why Goku didn't use the Kaioken with regular Super Saiyan and again, the show fails to mention the base only thing. Seriously?

No, I'm telling you not to ignore valid possibilities and explanations on the basis of "But think of the kids!" when you have something as clear-cut as Rageta vs. 10% Beerus. What if the show's writers personally felt it was obvious that KK and SSB were coinciding as opposed to adjuncting? Authors failing to mention certain details when taking the obviousness of those details for granted is actually a pretty common mistake in writing.

The first step forward, I think, is to admit that there are multiple plausible interpretations.

I don't consider the theory a possible explanation, there's nothing indicating besides forcing the 10% line to not be contradictory. The two base theory, I disagree with it, but I consider it a valid possibility since there's clues and tendencies that might point towards it. There's actually some base.

This one does not. Ever since the Saiyan Arc we know how the Kaioken works, if there was new info on it they had to tell us. Or else everybody would assume it's still the same Kaioken. The fact they provide exposition on it's inner workings and the reason Goku didn't use it after obtaining Super Saiyan makes this a close case, since that would be the only time to provide such important info.
Hadn't they said anything at all, the theory could have some legs. They way they explained it, makes it infallible.

To me the show made a mistake with the 10% line, hadn't it existed we could work things out.

[Marlowe89]

There ain't no little kid watching the show whose thinking "Ah Goku must be using his Kaioken x10 to increase his base power level but his God power has remained the same".

When I was a kid and watched Pikkon vs. Super Saiyan + Kaioken Goku, I do recall thinking that the two power-ups were used in a coinciding manner as opposed to "Kaioken is specifically multiplying the power of the Super Saiyan form" so it's entirely plausible. If you're gonna reject the possibility at its core, I think you'll need something a little more concrete than speculative ideas about the target audience's impressions.

Beerus used 10% to easily beat Vegeta that's it.

Nobody assumed (or would assume) that Beerus was needlessly overcompensating that much to the point of dramatic overkill. That's really all there is to it.

The fact they provide exposition on it's inner workings and the reason Goku didn't use it after obtaining Super Saiyan makes this a close case, since that would be the only time to provide such important info.

Goku didn't use it after obtaining Super Saiyan because it would have been too taxing on the body which is a mutually exclusive truth either way. Even if we assume that he was only coinciding KK with SSB (again, as opposed to co-joining the two) and even if SSB wasn't a "calm" transformation, it being too taxing of a combination would still viably hold true.

And they didn't say anything in regards to multiplier specifics when it comes to complex forms like SSB, which is why the theory is still possible.

[TheMikado]

I await the episode where Champa one shots Hit and then We find out Vados is is x as strong as Champa who turns out to be evil and ends with Goku performing a SSB solar flare only to exhaust his stamina and perform a Super Dragon bunch in base form to finally kill her. Meanwhile SSB Oozaru Vegeta got jobbed by her not even 5 mins earlier... Sigh the melt downs would be glorious!

[TheMikado]

To me the show made a mistake with the 10% line, hadn't it existed we could work things out.

Except that we have the question of universe 6 fighters and God tier plus Piccolo and of course where all this actually stands in relation to Beerus.

[ekrolo2]

So, has anyone managed to reconcile the fact Blue is apparently both a bitch on your stamina and has better ki control than FPSSJ that functions basically as a super strong base state yet? Cause I'm drawing a blank.

[Doctor.]

So, has anyone managed to reconcile the fact Blue is apparently both a bitch on your stamina and has better ki control than FPSSJ that functions basically as a super strong base state yet? Cause I'm drawing a blank.

I'm gonna assume Goku & co can't use MSS's full power as their "base" state, they use a portion of it, like 25% or 50%, with no toll on their body. When they power-up to full, that's when their Ki and Stamina start draining as they would usually. Only thing I can assume.

[Lord Beerus]

So, has anyone managed to reconcile the fact Blue is apparently both a bitch on your stamina and has better ki control than FPSSJ that functions basically as a super strong base state yet? Cause I'm drawing a blank.

I've honestly given up on trying to make any damn sense of power levels in Super. At this stage, I'm just turning off my brain and enjoying the ride.

[Chiki]

There are two paths we can take at this point:

1. Normal Kaioken SSB Goku > Beerus. Then we don't have to retcon the 6/10/15 scale.
2. Beerus is way way way above Normal Kaioken SSB Goku and still above x10 SSB Goku.

2 makes no sense because Beerus was scared of Normal Kaioken SSB Goku even BEFORE he knew about Kaioken x3, 4, 10 etc.

What do you guys think?

[Hugo Boss]

I think it's too soon to jump into conclusions. Sure Whis gives a hint that kaioken might be scaring Beerus, but nothing has been confirmed yet. By the way, I was the one who suggested kaioken could multiply only the base or Super Saiyan and add it to Super Saiyan Blue, but the episode put a wrench on that theory. Hit observed Goku's energy increased by 3, 4 folds etc.

[Marlowe89]

There are two paths we can take at this point:

1. Normal Kaioken SSB Goku > Beerus. Then we don't have to retcon the 6/10/15 scale.
2. Beerus is way way way above Normal Kaioken SSB Goku and still above x10 SSB Goku.

2 makes no sense because Beerus was scared of Normal Kaioken SSB Goku even BEFORE he knew about Kaioken x3, 4, 10 etc.

What do you guys think?

I certainly think it's plausible to be honest (Beerus even had that sweat drop that's usually indicative of nervousness) but I'm not entirely convinced it's the truth until we get more information on the matter, assuming we EVER get some sort of clarification.

All I'm absolutely sure of is that at the moment I'm not willing to abandon the 6/10/15 scale at all because I honestly don't believe it's actually refuted yet. Hit may have been sensing Goku's base strength increasing, or alternatively maybe Goku actually did surpass Beerus with Kaioken and SSB. Hopefully we'll find out eventually.

[Chiki]

Also what's the difference between Kaioken and Kaioken x2?

[ZombieVito]

There's one positive thing about this mess. Toriyama's comment about Freeza not being able to beat Beerus no matter what he tries now makes sense since even in his golden form he is still under 10% of him.

[Alee9977]

Hello guys, I'm new and I have an opinion I want to share with you about the power levels.
I think that Goku using the kaioken with Super Saiyan Blue is a lot stronger than Whis and Beerus (I dont know why some people dont want to accept it) but he wont be able to defeat them, because Whis and Beerus are on a godly tier meanwhile Goku and Vegeta are on a half-god tier, so, no matter how strong they get, they wont beat them because they have more abilities and skills than those two (Whis can even make his body move by his own), It's like if you put something really really strong that has no idea about fighting, against someone not really strong but that knows how to fight really well, at the end, the one who knows how to fight will beat the one really strong that has no idea about fighting. And I think, this is what akira was referring to when he said Goku and Vegeta wont surpass Whis and Beerus yet.

[TheMikado]

Looking back through this thread it's truly amazing how many people this series has managed to discourage from even having this conversation anymore lol. Like at first people were making legitimate attempts but now half the thread has actually given up.

Super - 30
Kanzenshuu - 0

Lol